• Mayor of Simpleton
    I'm getting a little frustrated here. Nowhere did I say intuition was an end. You seem to read into my argument a lot. So do you consider reasoning a beginning, an end, or what?Noble Dust

    No you didn't say intuition was an end... I did.

    If intuition is the ability to acquire knowledge without proof, evidence, or conscious reasoning, or without understanding how the knowledge was acquired, would not intuition simply be a non-supported assumption of how things are without bothering to continue an investigation?

    One's intuition tells one "this is evident to me that..." and subsequently moves on building upon that notion with further intuitions and suddenly applied reasoning.

    I consider reasoning a process. Indeed we can know things to, but only to the best possible evidence or support we can have at the time. What is known can change and refine via this process. The problem with intuition is it does not have the process of reasoning involved in it's decision making; thus often falls short or stagnates in stubbornness.

    Again, "inspired or magical" is a pretty uncharitable response here, simply based on the tone.Noble Dust

    Sorry for the selection of terms, but honestly if the term require charity to hold up then is it really worth as much as one might believe it to be?

    To be honest I believe that far too much charity has been granted to intuition and perhaps it's overdue for a reality check.

    Do you really think that that's why I'm placing importance on intuition?Noble Dust

    Honestly I have really no idea why you'd place more importance or even equal important upon intuition.

    Do you think that's why Janus is making an argument in regards to intuition?Noble Dust

    I think we've sort of cleared that up, as I will only consider this vis a vis empirical matters. I'll answer that to Janus in my reply to his/her post.

    You seem to have a charicature in your mind, probably based on those days in which you placed importance on intuition, of what people who place value on intuition are like. And furthermore, a feeling of "inspiration" (not sure what "magical" means) is natural when the intuition is used. I openly take that feeling for what it is and listen to it; I don't disparage it.Noble Dust

    Not really... I'm simply placing the two concepts intution and reasoning acrossed from one another and looking at the pros and cons.

    I'm not interested in the private or social placebos that make one "feel better", but rather I'm looking at the two concepts to determine which of them is the better process to gaining knowledge that is less biases and information that is less narrow of a perspective. So far reasoning is far in the lead.

    Ugh...again, where did I say intuition is a conclusion? What does that even mean? It doesn't even make grammatical sense.Noble Dust

    Again... I said it was a conclusion, as illustrated by it's definition.

    Intuition deals with the immanently personal; sample size isn't important. You're using the rules of the game of reason to try to eliminate intuition (which doesn't play by reason's rules in the first place), from whatever game it is you're playing hereNoble Dust

    This seems a bit silly now, as the alternative would be to use my intution about what intuition means; thus why are we bothering having a debate and attempting to reason out what intuition means?

    Why not simply call it whatever one chooses to call it and move on? Why the post and the relies?

    Essentially, intuition can never have a place in that game if the rules of intuition aren't allowed into the ring.Noble Dust

    Intution has rules?

    I thought the point of intuition was to simply call it as one sees it according to what one sees.

    Are the rules of intuition "anything goes"?

    If intuition has to play by reason's rules, then intuition is indeed worthless, which is basically what you're trying to set up here. But again, that's an uncharitable charicature of what intuition is, and it reveals your own lack of intuition.Noble Dust

    So you did get my point.

    Intuition alone or without subsequent reasoning is indeed not worthless, but is only of worth to the one who fielded the intuitive notion.

    - Accupuncture works!
    - The earth is flat!
    - The sun revolves around the earth!
    - Air is breathable as long as I don't see smoke!
    - My rally hat caused the team to come back and win!
    - The Comulians are the one true gods as the literally control the weather I see (Rick and Morty)!

    OK... that might have been uncharitable.

    I suppose if there is any evidence to support intuition it would be anecdotal evidence, but my take on this type of debate regarding intuition/ancedotal evidence vs. reasoning/empirical evidence is reflected in this cartoon:


    Let's avoid that.

    No matter...

    I'm going to be out of your hair for awhile. A trip to Paris for a week with no internet. Just art, food and my wife. I suppose I'll have an unfortunate (good) time applying my reason in experiencing the art. ;)


  • Mayor of Simpleton
    You're only addressing the role of intuition vis a vis empirical matters, so since I already more or less agree, I can't find much to respond to.Janus


    I'm not really that interested in a long laundry list of the personal examples of intuition being a "great thing" (evidence collected in a casual or informal manner and relying heavily or entirely on personal testimony... aka anecdotal evidence), as this simply become pleading special cases leading to errors of sample size.

    At the risk of a tautology, intution is simply intuition... a potential beginning process for a more accurate and clearer investigation via empirical reasoning or it becomes a stubborn stopping point for those who wish to have an investigation/answer in one breath; thus ending investigation or the continuation of a carefully protected investigation in a hermetically sealed worldview allowing nothing more than believing in believing and faith in faith supported by anecdotal evidence.

    Indeed anecdotal evidence does have a value, but only when in combination with empirical methods/evidences. I view intuition in the same manner... it only has a value when combined to checked by empirical methods. When alone intuition is the breeding ground for superstitious thinking and dangerous pseudosciences with no checks in place to control the danger.

    My take on this whole muddle is that intuition has had a protected status and has been quite romanticized and overestimated for the sake of granting credence to knowledge assumed to be true knowledge that has no foundation. Oddly enough the ones granting the credence to intuition tend to be the same ones who field the notions of knowledge assumed to be true knowledge that has no foundation.

    Strange thought now... I can't get this moment out of my head... I wonder why?

    Anyway... I'm off to go to Paris... Pompidou, d'Orsay, Sacré-Cœur... ;)

    Meow! (Miaou!)

  • Janus

    OK, well, you're entitled to your views, of course. For me though, they come across as tendentious; I agree with @Noble Dust that your account of intuition is a superficial 'simpletonistic' caricature. Happy trails!
  • Noble Dust
    Wisdom is basically knowledge.TheMadFool

    That seems a very unwise position.
  • TheMadFool
    That seems a very unwise position.Noble Dust

    I read somewhere that wisdom = good knowledge. ''Good'' is an adjective'' but ''knowledge'' is a noun. Said otherwise we first have to find knowledge and then determine if it's good or not.
  • bloodninja
    I see what you're trying to express. But I think it is totally misguided.

    Try replacing 'knowledge' with 'understanding', and 'good' with 'true'.
  • ExTiNcT SaNitY
    I used to think I was wise; I was the sunday-school devotee; the youth pastor took to me the most because I was passive and hungry to learn. I seemed to have a certain existential knack at an early age. A lot has happened since then. Now I don't know what wisdom is.

    I'm just relaying this little personal story so Michael doesn't delete the thread for "low post quality". In reality, all I want to ask is: "What is wisdom?"
    Noble Dust
    Never understood this sub basic questions that are easily read in a dictionary. If there's a complex aspect that one doesn't understand and wants to discuss it, then sure it's a good thing to post, but not this.

    If it was a big serious business, one would probably be fired not being able to perform a normal mail correspondence.
  • TheMadFool
    I see what you're trying to express. But I think it is totally misguided.

    Try replacing 'knowledge' with 'understanding', and 'good' with 'true'.

    Well, I think change is the only unchanging truth. If there's wisdom worth holding onto then that's it.

    Doesn't that mean wisdom needs to update itself with time?
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