• Mr Phil O'Sophy
    888
    Is the cis gendered experience equivalent to be the trans gendered experience?
    — Mr Phil O'Sophy

    I have no idea what this question means.
    Michael

    Come on you're an intelligent person, its a simple question.
    Are there differences which give rise to the distinction between someone being cis gendered or being trans gendered? Is there something that trans people, being trans can relate to in terms of their experience of being trans? are they united in their experience of being 'trapped in another body? or can the two experiences, (that is the experience of being a cis and trans person) equivalent?

    In the context of the medical diagnosis of somatic delusion, by "defect" they aren't referring to the sort of thing where someone believes that they were born in the "wrong" body. They're referring to the sort of thing where someone (unresonably) believes that the normal functioning of the body they actually have is impaired in some way.Michael

    regardless of whether or not you're willing to concede this point, I think I can still show it to be a delusion if you follow the line of reasoning that is inevitable in addressing the above question.
  • Michael
    6.5k
    Are there differences which give rise to the distinction between someone being cis gendered or being trans gendered?Mr Phil O'Sophy

    Presumably brain structure, as shown in this study.

    Is there something that trans people, being trans can relate to in terms of their experience of being trans? are they united in their experience of being 'trapped in another body?

    No. I believe there are transgender people who have no desire to undergo a sex change. They're happy with their body. As has been pointed out before, there is a distinction between gender and sex, and although a lot of people want for their sex to be congruent with their gender (those who transition), it isn't necessary.

    or can the two experiences, (that is the experience of being a cis and trans person) equivalent?

    I still don't know what this means.
  • BlueBanana
    840
    How am I the one that was not making sense? What was "I did" supposed to be a sensible thing to respond to in that context?
  • BlueBanana
    840
    Can a man really know what it feels like to be a woman?Mr Phil O'Sophy

    Well, can a woman? How can a man know what it feels like for the other men to feel like a man?
  • yatagarasu
    72


    ↪yatagarasu the sources which you have mentioned don’t seem to link to each other and each has a considerable amount of personal bias towards the “CIS gender” side.Count Radetzky von Radetz

    Don't link to each other? Biased towards the "cis" gender side? What does any of that mean? The last two studies are just reaffirmations of the first one and are not available. The comprehensive ones are the other ones. Personal bias? How do you get that from any of those studies? I'm serious. Please explain. : )-
  • yatagarasu
    72


    Presumably brain structure, as shown in this study.Michael

    Exactly. The same is true of homosexual individuals brain structure.
  • yatagarasu
    72


    ↪yatagarasu if it’s dense i doubt i’ll Have the time to read through it till after my exams but I will certainly come back to them. Can you summarize them? What field do you work in if you don’t mind me asking?Mr Phil O'Sophy

    Yes. Whenever you have the time. : ) Good luck with your exams! : D

    Unfortunately, I cannot. Mainly because it would we a long-winded summation by any account. And that I risk the chance of distorting the original studies by my personal "bias". So I usually let people just read it and see if they agree with me. I am currently working at Thermo Fisher as a researcher, but I specialize in neurobiology.
  • Harry Hindu
    1.2k
    No. The issue is one of incongruence between their gender identity and their biological sex, not in believing that they have some illness or physical defect. You're just taking advantage of ambiguous language. Transgenderism isn't the sort of condition that psychiatrists are talking about when they talk about somatic delusions.Michael
    Like I said in the post you just cherry-picked. If they claim that they are woman in a man's body - that is claiming that you have a physical defect - that you are the wrong sex. To say that the issue is one of incongruence is to say that their feeling is true and their body is wrong - or defective. How do we know that it is the body that is defective and not the mind?

    Psychiatrists are simply being inconsistent in order to not be labeled by society as being transgender phobes. Science is heavily influenced by culture - unfotunately.
  • Mr Phil O'Sophy
    888
    Psychiatrists are simply being inconsistent in order to not be labeled by society as being transgender phobes. Science is heavily influenced by culture.Harry Hindu

    Yeah I would also agree that if there is an official stance that trans should not be included in that definition, that it isn't a consistent decision. The only causal explanation for such a move is sympathy, not logic. Which is fine if you want to be honest about it, my problem is when they claim its a logical move, which is not the case at all.
  • Everett Robinson
    2
    "What makes a man a male and a woman a female?"

    Why must we have two classes of people? Don't all of us have qualities of masculine and feminine? All of us have testosterone and estrogen coursing through our bodies - though our sexual organs tend to favor one or the other. There are men who grow breasts. There are aggressive and unnurturing women. How much cocoa do you have to add to the food before it becomes chocolate flavored? Perhaps we are all a blending of both genders.

    That said, I do think there are people who seek contentment in their lives by living as the gender opposite to what society identified them to be. I don't see that as wrong or right, normal or aberrant. A person has certain natural freedoms to decide their behavior, enabling all of us to create our identities, our understanding of ourselves. To impose our own understanding of gender is to suppress that freedom of others, is it not?

    I think what really bothers people is when they are deceived or surprised in the discovery of another person's nature against their representation of identity. We don't like to be lied to by "honest" salesmen. If the city council places a stop sign at a safe corner for our "safety", we wonder why it should be imposed upon our attention and behavior. If one perceives himself to be heterosexual, he doesn't want to discover that another person with whom he has been intimate is homosexual, and vice-versa.

    When you ask what makes a person male or female, I would retort: why are you confused? All words carry meaning. That meaning differs from person to person, between contexts, and changes over time. Words are just vehicles of meaning in the transportation system of communication. If you like Fords, does that preclude others from driving Hondas?

    Consider this: if you lived a few thousand years ago, you would have seen no "men" or "women" signs on the bathrooms, because the side of the trail or the pit out 'round the back of your hut would have been where you relieved yourself. People had more critical things to worry about than privacy or gender identity. May I submit that your question and corresponding confusion are artifacts of the society you live in, arising from something other than the nature of humankind.
  • Cabbage Farmer
    157
    Correct me if i’m Wrong (and that’s perfectly possible) but I think the US is like one of the leading places in terms of making it a comfortable place for people identifying as transgender and they have around 0.6% of their population that fall into this category.Mr Phil O'Sophy
    Will you provide a source for that datum?

    I don't know what the proportion is in the US today, or in any other place at any other time. Who cares? What point are you trying to make by focusing on the proportion with such determination?

    I don't see what relevance such facts would have for the claims I've made thus far.
  • SherlockH
    73
    I think you mean sex. As under transgender idea gender is what you feel vs sex is what you are.
  • Txastopher
    106
    Regarding gender being whatever you feel it to be, if I feel 27 years old, but am actually 52, am I 27?
  • SherlockH
    73
    you could be health wise 27, but physically be 57.
  • Mr Phil O'Sophy
    888


    The whole point was to back up the claim I had made previously that if 99+% of the worlds population has a coinciding gender and sex, that it would suggest correlation between the two.
145678Next
bold
italic
underline
strike
code
quote
ulist
image
url
mention
reveal
youtube
tweet
Add a Comment

Welcome to The Philosophy Forum!

Get involved in philosophical discussions about knowledge, truth, language, consciousness, science, politics, religion, logic and mathematics, art, history, and lots more. No ads, no clutter, and very little agreement — just fascinating conversations.