• Count Timothy von Icarus
    211

    Better grab them soon. I hear Trump is coming back "in two more weeks," or "by August."

    Anyhow, surely this is the best outcome. Now his influence can be stretched out over 12 years.
  • Wayfarer
    12.6k
    Interesting piece in the Atlantic today arguing that The Capital Rioters Won. I think, in light of the GOP blocking the commission of enquiry, this is true.

    Republicans are not blocking a bipartisan January 6 commission because they fear Trump, or because they want to “move on” from 2020. They are blocking a January 6 commission because they agree with the underlying ideological claim of the rioters, which is that Democratic electoral victories should not be recognized. Because they regard such victories as inherently illegitimate—the result of fraud, manipulation, or the votes of people who are not truly American—they believe that the law should be changed to ensure that elections more accurately reflect the will of Real Americans, who by definition vote Republican. They believe that there is nothing for them to investigate, because the actual problem is not the riot itself but the unjust usurpation of power that occurred when Democrats won. Absent that provocation, the rioters would have stayed home. — Adam Serwer
  • magritte
    255
    I got a comment published on today's NY Times story on Trump
    'Someone ought to raise the point that if Trump's GOP refuses to recognise the result of the 2020 election then they must forfeit the right to participate in the electoral cycle. Democracy is a system of rules, and not recognising the rules ought to warrant exclusion from the system.'
    Wayfarer

    I doubt that you received any responses given the Times' window for comments, so let's try
    Whose democracy do you mean by that?
  • Wayfarer
    12.6k
    To which the only answer is ‘democracy is owned by no-one’.
  • magritte
    255
    Then you agree with me that democracy is not mine therefore there must be many notions of democracy. The only alternative to that is god-given Democracy. OTH, what the Constitution defines is a lawful republic not popular anarchistic democracy, and that's where the discussion needs to start.
  • Wayfarer
    12.6k
    Then you agree with me that democracy is not mine therefore there must be many notions of democracy.magritte

    Just because nobody owns it doesn’t mean anyone can say what it is. Don’t appreciate the card trick.
  • magritte
    255
    Not a card trick at all. I don't think you're appreciating the weight of your assumptions in making that argument. To a Trumpist democracy means our power, to you it seems to mean an ideally equal distribution of possibility or actuality of power.

    The Constitution was written expressly for a republic ruled by a now denigrated elite analogous to ancient Roman freemen. This discrepancy is slowly evolving to an unspecified resolution, which is decidedly not democracy.
  • creativesoul
    9.9k
    What Trump actually did during the occupation of the capital on Jan. 6 needs to be revealed to the public. He falied to defend the US government. He cheered the attack itself. He promoted it. He still promotes it. His supporters still promote it. One Republican party leader, McConnell, has said that there's nothing more to learn about what happened on Jan 6.

    It's fucking disgraceful.

    Trump lied about widespread voter fraud throughout his term, and particularly often in the last year and a half. That lie was repeated often in right wing news outlets and talk shows. He alone led the long string of lies that led up to Jan 6. Half of House Republicans and nearly all of Senate Republicans are complicit in this defrauding of the American people. Nevermind the nutjobs. Now, after conjuring up enough doubt in the minds of citizens regarding the trustworthiness of elections(based upon lies and falsehoods mentioned heretofore), the republican party iitself is using that distrust(that they manufactured from lies about widespread voter fraud) as a reason to make it harder and harder to vote.

    For those who keep acting like and/or believing that the US is a democracy. It is not. Never has been. It's a republic with democratic traditions. A representative form of government. A group of elected officials, chosen by the people and for the people, who are supposed to be acting on behalf of the people.
  • Wayfarer
    12.6k
    For those who keep acting like and/or believing that the US is a democracy. It is not. Never has been. It's a republic with democratic traditions. A representative form of government. A group of elected officials, chosen by the people and for the people, who are supposed to be acting on behalf of the people.creativesoul

    ‘Elected officials’, right? So it is a democracy. Denying that fact doesn’t help to protect democracy, it only fuels cynicism. Egypt, Belarus, Myanmar - those countries are not democratic. The US despite its many problems and fractures is. The 2020 Presidential election had the largest turnout in history and was also according to the official reports, which I believe, the most secure and transparent election in history. To say otherwise plays right into the hands of those insidious forces who wish to subvert it.
  • Wayfarer
    12.6k
    What Trump actually did during the occupation of the capital on Jan. 6 needs to be revealed to the public. He falied to defend the US government. He cheered the attack itself. He promoted it. He still promotes it. His supporters still promote it. One Republican party leader, McConnell, has said that there's nothing more to learn about what happened on Jan 6.creativesoul

    What happened is perfectly clear, but a significant proportion of the populace has bought into Trump’s lies and so are prepared to accept that the riot was actually a patriotic act. That’s what is shocking about it. Read The Atlantic piece I linked in this post.
  • Wayfarer
    12.6k
    Well, I see from reports of Trump’s speech today at the GOP conference, that he’s not quite done totally f***ing the Republican Party. Which is great, as there are enough enthusiastic idiots within the Party to give him enough rope to totally f*** it.,
  • Benkei
    4.5k
    Don't count on it. Prepare to welcome (more) fascism in 2025.
  • Wayfarer
    12.6k
    Nah. They’re too stupid to be genuinely dangerous. Trump is the definition of stupid.
  • Benkei
    4.5k
    The only two things that will save the USA is if the GOP splits or if Trump ends up in jail before elections. The latter can be frustrated through delaying tactics and the former is looking less likely every day.
  • fishfry
    2.4k
    The only two things that will save the USA is if the GOP splits or if Trump ends up in jail before elections. The latter can be frustrated through delaying tactics and the former is looking less likely every day.Benkei

    Hi, just happened by and have not followed this thread for months, so my comment is completely out of context and only directed at exactly the text quoted.

    Let's say the left gets their wish and Letitia James or some other eager leftie prosecutor puts Trump in prison. Striped shirt and pants, ball and chain around his ankle, wielding a scythe under the hot sun on a Louisiana chain gang. Cool Hand Luke. "That Donnie he's a good ol' boy," in George Kennedy's voice.

    Now what do you think is the effect on the 74,216,154 Americans who went to the polls and voted for him in 2020? Wouldn't they be even more upset than they are already? How about the citizens and legislators in the red states? In the red counties of the blue states? How exactly would your scenario "save America?" Or are you going to imprison the 74 million as well? Curious to know how this is supposed to play out. The Senate is split 50-50 and the Dems hold the house by a single-digit majority. The incumbent president's party almost always loses Congressional seats in the midterms anyway. Wouldn't this just bring Republicans and conservatives to the polls in record numbers and with massive enthusiasm?

    So you put Trump in prison. What next? How does this bring peace and harmony to the US? How does this play out? How exactly does this "save America?"
  • Benkei
    4.5k
    Now what do you think is the effect on the 74,216,154 Americans who went to the polls and voted for him in 2020? Wouldn't they be even more upset than they are already? How about the citizens and legislators in the red states? In the red counties of the blue states? How exactly would your scenario "save America?" Or are you going to imprison the 74 million as well? Curious to know how this is supposed to play out. You put Trump in prison. What next? How does this bring peace and harmony to the US?fishfry

    They'd vote for someone less idiotic and criminal.

    Possibly but I think plenty of people voted against the Democrats instead of for Trump, so most won't care.

    Business as usual.

    That you don't have a president with fascist and autocratic interests in power.

    Idiotic question.

    Up to the US.

    You still have a functioning society, don't be a drama queen.
  • Pfhorrest
    4.5k
    They'd vote for someone less idiotic and criminal.Benkei

    Or they'd vote for Marjorie Taylor Greene.
  • Benkei
    4.5k
    That would be a great social experiment. More popcorn I guess.
  • EricH
    354
    They'd vote for someone less idiotic and criminal.Benkei

    You're a cock-eyed optimist.
  • 180 Proof
    4k
    :up:

    So you put Trump in prison. What next? How does this bring peace and harmony to the US? How does this play out? How exactly does this "save America?"fishfry
    Same way the Nuremburg Tribunals and Allied Powers occupation saved Deutschland for the last several decades – "peace and prosperity" mobilized by progressive anti-neoliberal fiscal-regulatory policies and force-multiplied by the inclusive, democratic, rule of law.
  • James Riley
    1.1k
    How exactly does this "save America?"fishfry

    Justice is supposed to be blind. Thus, justice would not give a rats fucking ass about how punishment would hurt the feelings of a bunch of snow flakes. Serving justice saves America and we don't not serve justice simply because of 74m petulant snowflakes who would extort a denial of justice under threat.

    Today is June 6, the anniversary of D-Day, when slaughtering fascists, like the worthless pieces of shit that they are, was an honor, involving sacrifice. We should honor all the men who died in that struggle by serving justice to Trump in their name.

    In fact, a failure to serve justice destroys America and all they fought for.

    Get on the right side of history. Trump is a dishonorable coward and a liar who no man would follow into combat, no man would leave his daughter to watch, no man would give his money to for protection.

    The only thing I'm curious about is how his Secret Service detail will deal with Donny getting plowed by Billy Bob in his little cell. Oh yeah, that's right, he won't get justice. Nobody with money and power get's justice in America. Maybe America already is dead due to a lack of justice.
  • ArguingWAristotleTiff
    4.2k
    The only two things that will save the USA is if the GOP splits or if Trump ends up in jail before elections. The latter can be frustrated through delaying tactics and the former is looking less likely every dayBenkei

    Why am I not surprised that once again you are doubting the power of the people's voice. You are hearing the anti-Trumpers in control today and if that is what the people see as a positive change from 45? Then they will vote that way but so will millions of other Americans that are living in the same county but not really as a states standing united.

    We are not a perfect nation but it's the best I have seen from here and the greatest my Grandparents saw from over there. You may call me naive in my faith in our ability to rise up better but that is okay. Naysayers can be the energy behind change. :flower:
  • ArguingWAristotleTiff
    4.2k
    They'd vote for someone less idiotic and criminal.Benkei
    Jeez that is rich. Show me an elected official who isn't slightly better off than the average American in gains obtained by holding elected office. <Insert eye roll>

    They'd but I think plenty of people voted against the Democrats instead of for Trump, so most won't care.Benkei
    Many people, of many industries and many border states do oh so care. Trust in me, we care. :100:
  • baker
    1.6k
    a significant proportion of the populace has bought into Trump’s liesWayfarer
    It seems more likely that they already believe such things, rather than having "bought into his lies". It seems unlikely that one person would have such power over others. Rather, this is about something that is already in the people. Similar as in Nazi Germany: Hitler didn't convert anyone, people weren't "buying into his lies". Rather, they already believed those things.


    They’re too stupid to be genuinely dangerous. Trump is the definition of stupid.Wayfarer
    Don't be like the deva in the sala tree. That which you call "stupidity" is a seed, and it will grow, and destroy everything in its path.
  • James Riley
    1.1k
    t seems more likely that they already believe such things, rather than having "bought into his lies". It seems unlikely that one person would have such power over others. Rather, this is about something that is already in the people. Similar as in Nazi Germany: Hitler didn't convert anyone, people weren't "buying into his lies". Rather, they already believed those things.baker

    I have to agree with you. The only caveat I would add is this: Most of these beliefs were under the fridge. Trump let them out, when the lights were on, allowing them to get brave, and getting braver.

    Physically, I look the part. I've spent a lifetime with these people confiding in me, thinking I was one of them. And there are a lot of them. It had always been on the down-low: winks, nods, and, when in a conservative safe space, the quiet part was said out loud. It usually started out with little feelers, testing the waters, trying to make sure they were in "good" company. If I shut them down, that was the end of it. But if I remained silent, the stupid ones thought silence was agreement. Some thought I was "on the fence" and prime for recruitment with their absolutely, fundamentally stupid logic. Then they got shut down and crawled back under the fridge.

    But then Trump came along and all of a sudden, here we are.

    When it comes to putting the toothpaste back in the tube, it's going to take a real leader. I'm not so sure POTUS Biden has what it takes. I hope so. And I hope he can do it through example and moral persuasion, because the left, largely, has abdicated on their civil liberty outlined in the Second Amendment. They must now rely on government to save them and, I'm afraid, much of the subject beliefs you reference are insinuated throughout the very government we would rely upon for our defense. Who will enforce the law when the man next to them, in whom they have entrusted their very life, is dragging his feet, or worse?

    Leadership indeed.
  • creativesoul
    9.9k
    It seems more likely that they already believe such things, rather than having "bought into his lies".baker

    Indeed. I've said - ad nauseum - that Trump is not the problem, but rather, he is a symptom of underlying problems.

    Although, in this case of claiming that the election was stolen from him, that is simply not true. He is much of the problem. It doesn't matter whether or not he believes it(whether he is lying or delusional). Trump began sewing the seeds of doubt about the election results of 2020 a year and a half prior to the election. He took action at the USPS which made it much harder to successfully deliver the ballots in time, and then complained about the difficulties faced by the institution regarding that. It was well known that mail-in ballots were going to be used in far greater numbers than ever before due to the pandemic(that he denied, lied about, and basically ignored).

    So much of the problems in American society boils down to the systematic deterioration of trust in elected officials that the white American electorate has been going through since the seventies(that minorites have been going through since the beginning of the country). This includes but is not limited to the ongoing lies and false promises made to the white American people from both sides of the aisle, by each and every administration since Carter. The lack of protecting innocent citizens/consumers from predatory lending practices and other forms of blatant harmful practices and purported public services(the dismantling of anti-trust laws). The disasterous effects/affects that the outsourcing of good paying American jobs has had, and that exodus itself being incentivized and rewarded, and then sold to the American people in the guise of cheaper prices and more choices. Lost incomes and destroyed livelihoods were supposed to be avoided by workforce development programs. These were already underfunded, and they are some of the first social programs to have cuts made to them. Hillary herself proposed such cuts in her last campaign.

    It used to be the case that if one wanted to work hard and follow the rules, one could find a job that would allow one to live without financial worries like choosing between paying bills or having food on the table. Many of the people who just began voting again for Trump chose Trump because he said what they had been wanting to hear... "America first", which meant regular blue collar Americans' interests ought supercede the rich and powerful peoples' desire to be even richer.

    This bit does not even begin to reflect the underlying systemic racism aspect... but alas, I'm tired. Minorities were cast as the cause of the problems facing white Americans. Disgusting.
  • Fooloso4
    1.9k


    This is the inspector general's report. Not a report by investigative journalists. It is well known that Trump had previously fired two confirmed and several acting inspectors general.

    Here is what he says:

    “If we had found that type of evidence,” Interior Inspector General Mark L. Greenblatt said, “we would not hesitate in presenting that, and saying that was influencing the Park Police’s decision-making to clear the park. Just so you know, if we had found that, if we had seen that type of evidence, we would absolutely have reported that, without a doubt.”

    Who believes this lie?
  • unenlightened
    5.7k
    Show me an elected official who isn't slightly better off than the average American in gains obtained by holding elected office.ArguingWAristotleTiff

    Venality and corruption being rampant is not a justification of it. Vote for more honest and moral officials, please.
  • Michael
    9.6k
    McGahn Affirmed That Trump Tried to Oust Mueller, Transcript Shows

    Donald F. McGahn II, who served as White House counsel to former President Donald J. Trump, has told lawmakers that episodes involving him in the Russia report by the special counsel, Robert S. Mueller III, were accurate — including one Mr. Trump has denied in which the president pressed him to get the Justice Department to remove Mr. Mueller.

    ...

    The internal furor over Mr. Trump’s previous attempt to oust Mr. Mueller reignited in January 2018, when The New York Times and then The Washington Post reported on the encounter.

    Mr. Trump was enraged and pushed Mr. McGahn to make a statement denying that the episode had happened, but he refused to do so — because, he said, The Times story was substantially accurate.

    Who would have thought that Trump would lie and try to have others lie to cover up his attempts to obstruct justice. I for one am shocked and surprised.
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