• NOS4A2
    3.8k
    While Trump’s opponents play “trump said”, more progress in the Middle East, this time between the Taliban and the Afghan government.

    Afghanistan’s government and the Taliban are set to begin their first-ever direct talks next week toward ending nearly two decades of fighting, after the U.S. signed a deal with the insurgent group to extricate America from its longest war.

    Representatives of the warring factions are expected to convene as early as Monday in Qatar’s capital to agree on a road map for reconciliation, officials said. Doha was also the venue for the signing of the U.S.-Taliban accord in February,

    The Afghan government is prioritizing an immediate cease-fire, while the Taliban is likely to focus on a power-sharing arrangement and a transitional government.

    The talks reflect a concerted push to end a war that began with the U.S.-led invasion in response to the Sept. 11, 2001, terrorist attacks that al Qaeda orchestrated from Taliban sanctuary in Afghanistan. The conflict has claimed more than 90,000 Afghan lives, displaced tens of thousands of people and destroyed schools, hospitals and other vital infrastructure. About a third of Afghans need urgent humanitarian aid, the United Nations has said.

    https://www.wsj.com/articles/afghanistan-and-taliban-begin-first-ever-direct-peace-talks-11599892222

    The reconciliation is tenuous at best, but progress is being made. So much for the world’s police. America is quickly becoming the world’s peace-keepers.
  • Michael
    9.1k

    Trump asking people to try to commit voter fraud again.
  • NOS4A2
    3.8k
    CNN telling people to commit voter fraud.

    Most states, with help from USPS, give your ballot a code. After you've requested it, you can go to the Secretary of State's website and see where you are in the process.

    It looks sort of like ordering a pizza from Domino's and being able to see on your phone when it comes out of the oven. Or filing your taxes! The federal government notifies you about that, too.

    But not all states offer this feature. And they're not all Southern states opposed to mail-in voting you might suspect. You might expect Texas to require an excuse for voting by mail and not offer a tracking system. But New York also requires an excuse and also does not track your ballot. Connecticut is an example of a Northeast state temporarily allowing absentee voting by mail, although they do not track your ballot.

    If it doesn't arrive, you might want to head to your polling place and explore your options, which are probably filling out a provisional ballot.

    https://www.cnn.com/2020/08/15/politics/what-matters-august-14/index.html
  • Michael
    9.1k
    Roger Stone calls for Trump to seize total power if he loses the election

    Stone also said federal authorities should seize all Nevada ballots, federal agents and GOP state officials should “physically” block voting, that Trump should nationalize police forces, and that Trump should order widespread arrests

    ...

    Stone also urged Trump to consider declaring “martial law” or invoking the Insurrection Act and then using his powers to arrest Facebook CEO Mark Zuckerberg, Apple CEO Tim Cook, “the Clintons” and “anybody else who can be proven to be involved in illegal activity.”

    Crazy fascists love Trump. And Trump loves crazy fascists.
  • ssu
    3.2k



    Yes, for some countries holding elections is a very difficult thing.
  • NOS4A2
    3.8k
    It looks like the Mueller team wiped their phones before the OIG could review their devices.

    The records show at least several dozen phones were wiped of information because of forgotten passcodes, irreparable screen damage, loss of the device, intentional deletion or other reasons -- and came before the DOJ’s Office of Inspector General (OIG) could review the devices.

    The documents show that Mueller deputy Andrew Weissman "accidentally wiped" his phone twice after entering the wrong passcode too many times in March 2018. Lawyer James Quarles’ phone “wiped itself” without his intervention, the records say.

    The records indicate Attorney Greg Andres phone was also wiped due to a forgotten passcode. And they say the phones of both Mueller deputy Kyle Freeny and Rush Atkinson were wiped accidentally after they entered the wrong passcode too many times.

    The records say that a phone belonging to FBI lawyer Lisa Page – whose anti-Trump texts with FBI agent Peter Strzok were of interest to investigators -- was restored to factory settings when the inspector general’s office received it.

    Other officials, whose names are redacted, claim to have unintentionally restored their phone to its factory settings, deleting all records of communication.

    https://www.foxnews.com/politics/doj-records-mueller-team-wiped-phones

    The Mueller team was either stupid or corrupt or both, but either way, by applying Clintonian destruction of records, they’re going to get away with it.
  • praxis
    2.7k


    Anti-trump texts are illegal? If so, I’m in big trouble. :grimace:
  • Metaphysician Undercover
    7.5k
    The Mueller team was either stupid or corrupt or both, but either way, by applying Clintonian destruction of records, they’re going to get away with it.NOS4A2

    Right, forgetting your passcode is "stupid". But I don't think I know anyone who hasn't forgotten a passcode now and then. I guess we're all stupid. How about you NOS, ever forget a passcode?

    Anyway, why is wiping your phone clear, before it was requested for examination, an example of corruption? I can see how wiping it after it was requested is corruption, but I think many people commonly wipe their phones.
  • NOS4A2
    3.8k


    Right, forgetting your passcode is "stupid". But I don't think I know anyone who hasn't forgotten a passcode now and then. I guess we're all stupid. How about you NOS, ever forget a passcode?

    Anyway, why is wiping your phone clear, before it was requested for examination, an example of corruption? I can see how wiping it after it was requested is corruption, but I think many people commonly wipe their phones.

    I’ve never forgotten the passcode to my phone, and I’ve never typed a wrong passcode numerous times (a process that would take over an hour given the timeouts on an iPhone).

    The fact that numerous people on the same team “accidentally” wiped their phones in such a fashion is a sign of a prevailing stupidity or of corruption in my opinion. At the very least it is worthy of investigation.
  • Michael
    9.1k
    Mueller report says Trump campaign figures hindered the investigation when they ‘deleted relevant information'

    The redacted version of special counsel Robert Mueller's final report said the nearly two year-long investigation was hindered by subjects of the probe — including members of the Trump campaign — deleting valuable information to the investigation.

    The report said certain subjects, who did they did not name, "deleted relevant communications or communicated during the relevant period using applications that feature encryption or that do not provide for long-term retention of data or communications record."

    According to the report, the deletion of those records actively undermined investigators' ability "to corroborate witness statements through comparison to contemporaneous communications or fully question witnesses about statements that appeared inconsistent with other known facts."

    The report further indicated that the deleted information could have altered the course of the investigation, saying that Mueller's team "cannot rule out the possibility that the unavailable information would shed additional light on (or cast in a new light) the events described in the report."
  • Metaphysician Undercover
    7.5k

    Supposing the wiping was intentional. Is it a crime, or sign of corruption to wipe your phone? Imagine yourself in the position of a member on that team. Your phone contains a lot of personal information. Yet because of your line of business you realize that this information will likely be made public some day. Would you not strive to keep the amount of personal information on your phone to a minimum, and wipe it periodically if necessary? Is this a wrongful act in your mind, you of all people, the great defender of president Trump, and the right to personal freedom?
  • ssu
    3.2k
    Anti-trump texts are illegal? If so, I’m in big trouble. :grimace:praxis

    You would be, if your job would be, oh, like counter-intelligence, something to do with the military or with the court system and anything remotely linked to Trump or some person linked to Trump would come up. Then praxis, you would part of the conspiracy against Trump!!! :scream:
  • NOS4A2
    3.8k


    I’m not sure whether it is a crime or not, but it seems to me that phones and data payed for by the taxpayer should be a matter of public record and transparency, for the same reason we have the Freedom of Information act.
  • NOS4A2
    3.8k
    More mail-in ballot failures, this time in 4th congressional primary in Massachusetts.

    A recount could be looming in the 4th Congressional District race between two Democrats as more uncounted ballots surfaced on Thursday.

    Officials in Newton, Wellesley and Franklin on Thursday restarted counting primary ballots after Secretary of the Commonwealth William Galvin filed a court order to authorize local poll workers to continue counting ballots that were received on time and had not been tallied by the end of Tuesday night.

    In Franklin, poll workers Thursday evening were counting about 3,000 uncounted ballots — much more than the previously estimated 600 uncounted ballots, according to a spokeswoman for the Secretary of the Commonwealth’s Office.

    The newly discovered 3,000 uncounted ballots were mail-in votes that appeared to have never made it to polling locations on Election Day.

    https://www.bostonherald.com/2020/09/03/massachusetts-4th-congressional-district-thousands-of-ballots-found-in-franklin-jesse-mermells-campaign-solicits-recount-signatures/

    3000 uncounted mail-in ballots.
  • tim wood
    5.4k
    An interesting Youtube video:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mIxNXVQMvgA&list=UUrWmonkmTk5NbvmVnc7f70w&index=5

    And there is a poll in the lounge on the question of indicting Trump.
  • tim wood
    5.4k
    A more fundamental understanding is that Trump never tells the truth. There may be times when what he says is true, but that is something altogether different. From the fact that he has said anything at all is so, one cannot and should not conclude that it is so - or even that it is meaningful in any apparent way.

    Even a squirrel makes meaningful sounds - but not Trump.
  • NOS4A2
    3.8k


    You tell us what you think Trump is - you have spent so much effort conveying what you think he isn't.

    As for the what, he is a man. As for the who, his life is a matter of public record, and is probably the most scrutinized and famous figure of the 21st century.

    People such as yourself and the foreign meddlers are concerned with his breath, his combinations of words, whatever shape his pixels take on Twitter. In the absence of the Hitler you were promised but never arrived, this is all that you really have to work with.

    I’m concerned with what he can do, and so far so good.
  • tim wood
    5.4k
    I’m concerned with what he can do, and so far so good.NOS4A2
    And did no harm, did he? And what good? (He commuted the sentences of a few women whose sentences should have been commuted - and there are many more.)

    The standards by which you measure Trump, are they your own that you use in your community? As examples for your - or anyone's - family and children?
  • NOS4A2
    3.8k


    The administration’s foreign and domestic policy has had such an affect that only a once-in-a-century global pandemic could injure it. With a few exceptions I agree with nearly every executive order.

    My family lives where Democrats have reigned for decades—currently under lockdown, on fire, and always under threat of mob violence. They aren’t looking to the president to furnish them with stately behaviors and lullabies. They see him as the last bulwark between America and its ruin.
  • NOS4A2
    3.8k
    Does the United States subsidize the drug prices of wealthy countries with governments that regulate their own drug prices? Trump and his council of economic advisers seem to think so and have devised an E.O. to counter it.

    It will be interesting to see if the new “payment model” will lead to higher drug prices abroad, lower drug prices in terms US. If such is the case, we might come to realize that the American taxpayer has been subsidizing the health care of foreign governments all along, without a single thank you.

    Executive Order on Lowering Drug Prices by Putting America First
  • tim wood
    5.4k
    currently under lockdown, on fire, and always under threat of mob violence. They aren’t looking to the president to furnish them with stately behaviors and lullabies. They see him as the last bulwark between America and its ruin.NOS4A2
    Then they fail to understand even a little bit their condition. Lockdown because of a virus whose effects Trump has deliberately magnified, as if he were an enemy. On fire because he is among those who are climate-change and global-warming deniers, and by having manned his departments with like-"thinkers" forestalled any approaches to the mitigation of dangers. And demonstrating because he deliberately fans the fires of racism, divisivism, and hate, as if he were an enemy.

    As to his foreign and domestic policy: what policy? What policies? He is remarkable for so consistently making atrocious choices and doing atrocious things - as if he were an enemy. He is the plaything of international politics, unfortunately not for good.
  • telex
    92


    Pro Trump:
    1) America is going back to its core values. (i'm not sure what this means :) .. i just want to say it )
    2) America is tougher on international stage.
    3) American's are becoming more patriotic.
    4) Lowest unemployment rate since '60s. (before Covid-19).
    5) Stock market is extremely strong (before Covid-19).
    6) Tough on illegal immigrants, resulting in less crime (or aiming for this)

    Anti Trump:
    1) Appears to be supported by or in collusion with Kremlin.
    2) Appears to be extremely racist. ("good people on both sides" regarding Charlottesville)
    3) Dismisses many reporters as "fake news"
    4) Desires to be unquestionable. Or is attempting to project fear on people if they dare to question him about something.
    5) America is extremely racially divided, on a brink of a cultural civil war (since Trump took office)
    6) Appears to be a womanizer ("grab her by the p*ss*") (very likely cheated on his wife ... idk if that's still important to anyone)
    7) Trump supporters are considered racist.

    Idk whether I like trump like that or not, but I do want a strong economy in United States. What do you guys think? Is money and job security more important than a person's view on race?

    Under obama, we had good racial solidarity, but a poor economy. Under Trump we have a strong economy (minus Covid-19), but poor racial solidarity.

    Of course this whole argument fails if Trump is in collusion with Kremlin, because then it means he is somehow compromising American national security. However, if Kremlin is just supporting Trump without Trump being involved, then it can't be said he is supporting the Russians in "that" sense.

    Trump is like a pandora's box to me, I literally am not sure what is inside.
  • tim wood
    5.4k
    Trump is like a pandora's box to metelex
    You do get that he is pathological liar and narcissist who has betrayed, corrupted, and harmed - even killed - everything he has touched - you do get that, yes?.
  • Michael
    9.1k
    Stock market is extremely strongtelex

    I do want a strong economy in United Statestelex

    The stock market isn't the economy. GDP is a better measure. And it's a simple fact that barring extreme cases like financial crises and pandemics, the GDP increases over time. The GDP under every President is going to be better than it was under the previous President.

    5aio3nfho9n7lp3v.png

    Do you have any reason to believe that the GDP under Trump is significantly better than it would have been under Clinton, or will be significantly better than it would be under Biden? If not then wanting a strong economy isn't a sufficient reason to prefer Trump over any alternative, especially given your stated cons.

    It's also worth considering the effect that certain GDP-boosting policies might have. Cutting regulations is likely to increase GDP but at the cost of a reduction in quality and safety. Looking only at "the economy" seems misguided. In fact, the financial crisis of 2007-2008 is a prime example of this, where the Financial Crisis Inquiry Commission concluded that lacking regulations was a key contributor.

    Lowest unemployment rate since '60s.telex

    Same principle. In this case the rises were due to the dot-com bubble and the financial crisis.

    nw53ylxo2fp2k9w4.png

    America is tougher on international stage.telex

    That's not always a good thing. If you're too tough then other countries aren't going to be willing to give. Negotiations tread a fine line. Could you be more specific by citing some cases where Trump's "tough" foreign policy has benefited the U.S.?

    Tough on illegal immigrants, resulting in less crimetelex

    Do you have any statistics on this? I can't find any information about the effect under the Trump administration but this study on the relationship between undocumented immigrants and violent crimes 1990-2014 concluded that "increases in the undocumented immigrant population within states are associated with significant decreases in the prevalence of violence".

    American's are becoming more patriotic.

    I think Americans are becoming far more fractured. The conflict between liberals and conservatives seems to be greater than it's been in a long time.
  • Kevin
    61

    What's your take on the argument of Trump supporters that his cutting of corporate taxes, etc brought jobs back to the US and contributed to lower unemployment?
  • telex
    92


    Thanks for your response Tim. What do you mean by he has killed?

    I guess the whole thing with trump being a liar, narcissist, a traitor, etc ... I'm wondering if you could make the argument that every politician has somehow lied and maybe even took bribes and thereby betrayed his people.

    Maybe Trump has lied more?

    How would you compare Trump to Obama in this scenario?
  • Michael
    9.1k
    What's your take on the argument of Trump supporters that his cutting of corporate taxes and tariffs on China brought jobs back to the US and contributed to lower unemployment?Kevin

    Where are you getting this from? The below source suggests the opposite.

    https://www.brookings.edu/blog/order-from-chaos/2020/08/07/more-pain-than-gain-how-the-us-china-trade-war-hurt-america

    A September 2019 study by Moody’s Analytics found that the trade war had already cost the U.S. economy nearly 300,000 jobs and an estimated 0.3% of real GDP. Other studies put the cost to U.S. GDP at about 0.7%. A 2019 report from Bloomberg Economics estimated that the trade war would cost the U.S. economy $316 billion by the end of 2020, while more recent research from the Federal Reserve Bank of New York and Columbia University found that U.S. companies lost at least $1.7 trillion in the price of their stocks as a result of U.S. tariffs imposed on imports from China
  • Kevin
    61

    Thanks for the reference. This is simply the view most of the folks that are sympathetic to Trump or support him that I work with believe when asked for reasons.
  • telex
    92


    Those are great arguments Michael. As you point out, GDP would have increased anyway. So, based on this argument, we were not better off economically if Hillary was elected. I guess the Trump side would say otherwise.

    So it seems we are left with something like this for pro - trump side:
    1) people solely support trump because he appears to be pro-white. (white nationalists)
    2) people support trump because he is pro-white and creates a strong economy
    3) people support trump just because they are republican.
    4) people support trump only because of his strong economy
    5) people support trump for all of his issues, including immigration

    Anti - trump side:
    1) the economy would have been the same or similar under Hiliary.
    2) Trumps boasting of a strong stock market, employment rate, and economy is superfluous.
    3) Trump is obviously racist.
    4) Trump creates a lot of division in this country. Cultural civil war.
    5) Trump wants to be an unquestionable president in regards to free press.
    6) Trump creates a lot of hostility in international and domestic issues

    (Michael you asked about illegal immigrants and less crime --> I heard this on the news, I just wanted to bring it up, I'm not for or against it, I just wanted to make a point for one side or the other, as a discussion point)


    I guess my other point is this:
    1) If it was undeniably true (like a natural law of gravity) that Trump was the ONLY politician in the next election to maintain a great economy (anyone else means bad economy, just as general terms), would you still vote for him, even if he had extremely racist views toward black people and other minorities? (let's not consider Covid-19 here and let's exclude Michael's GDP argument for the sake of this argument) --> what would be more important? money and job security or racial solidarity? (let's say both are not possible and also if you voted for Trump, it could mean a civil war in the long run) (let's also exclude the question about who gets the money. Let's just say in general for all population, the economy and job opportunity are much better)

    2) On the other point, let's include Michael's GDP argument and Covid-19. Do you think if Biden is elected, our cultural civil wars would end. Perhaps living in less fear of war is more important than Trumps economics,
bold
italic
underline
strike
code
quote
ulist
image
url
mention
reveal
youtube
tweet
Add a Comment

Welcome to The Philosophy Forum!

Get involved in philosophical discussions about knowledge, truth, language, consciousness, science, politics, religion, logic and mathematics, art, history, and lots more. No ads, no clutter, and very little agreement — just fascinating conversations.