• Metaphysician Undercover
    5k

    If it's a negotiating tactic, then it's a bullshit negotiating tactic, like holding a gun to a person's head is a bullshit negotiating tactic.
  • Benkei
    1.8k
    My problem is that I don´t believe our species has different races; apparently Anthropology does not support the existence of subspecies in Homo Sapiens. That is why I get confused with accusations of racism. For example, how is to be born in Mexico a race? I think it is just a nationality. I honestly don´t understand this racist approach. When Americans talk about racial stuff, I feel like they are talking about the races in the Lord of the Rings; like Mexicans were hobbits.DiegoT

    It's xenophobia. But whatever. It's quite clear taking everything Trump has said and done that he is indeed a racist. You know, those people who don't accept the science that there aren't any subspecies.

    But let's go back to what you thought was the underlying principle that people from certain countries (since you agreed Mexicans should be kept out) don't share certain characteristics to support civilisation. Which countries are those?
  • DiegoT
    314
    Xenophobia is not a real term, but a "shut up!" word.

    China for example. It doesn´t mean that individual Chinese people can´t be civilized; but their society is totally beyond that and it actually shows when you have friends that were actually brought up there. The pillar of civilization is citizenship, the institution based on people contributing individually to their society, from their own point of view, with their duties and rights. This essential separation has been destroyed in China; The citizen doesn´t exist, only small human incarnations of the super-structure. The individual is only valuable as a cell of the system, the use for the regime; you are Chinese, but you are not Pei or Lan. Not really. It´s not just the traditional collective spirit of Chinese people; is way beyond that. It´s a game of Sims, with cameras, digital controls, and constant reminders that you don´t matter as a person. If you research the origin of civilization (that is the culture adapted to living in urban environments) the really new, paramount institution is the citizen as a subject of rights and duties, as opposed to a mere part of a tribe or social group.
    Chinese people who come to the civilized world, should undergo a de-programming stage, to help those people instead of importing the post-civilized system that is also appearing in other nations. When we notice that Chinese people work even when they should be having free time, we should not praise them, we should realize they have a psychological problem that needs to be mended. They are not happy. Their families aren´t either.
  • Benkei
    1.8k
    Xenophobia is not a real term, but a "shut up!" word.DiegoT

    It's a real term. I'm not sure what a shut up word is.

    If you research the origin of civilization (that is the culture adapted to living in urban environments) the really new, paramount institution is the citizen as a subject of rights and duties, as opposed to a mere part of a tribe or social group.DiegoT

    This is all a matter of definitions which makes it less interesting. You seem to be suggesting people had no rights and duties in tribes, which simply isn't true.

    Chinese people who come to the civilized world, should undergo a de-programming stage, to help those people instead of importing the post-civilized system that is also appearing in other nations. When we notice that Chinese people work even when they should be having free time, we should not praise them, we should realize they have a psychological problem that needs to be mended. They are not happy. Their families aren´t either.DiegoT

    The issue was Law, secularism, human rights and democracy. Not their perceived psychological problems arising from a different work ethic. I'm just going to ignore this as it's another tangent.

    Please explain this list of Chinese people if they are the type of people we should build walls against :

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Chinese_democracy_activists
  • prothero
    193
    Trump offers temporary DACA relief for funding for a permanent wall.
    I don't think that is a good deal.
    Permanent DACA and path to citizenship might be something to talk about for partial funding for some physical barriers?
  • andrewk
    1.8k
    My interpretation is that it was never intended to be a meaningful offer. He just wants to be able to add the announcement to a list of purported 'attempts to compromise' that he'll point to in order to try to win the PR war.

    It's not a bad PR strategy. But there are serious doubts about whether it can gain any traction.
  • prothero
    193
    Yes, I am afraid it is all PR, posturing, and politics. Very little thought about what is good for the country and the future, and both sides of the aisle are quilty. The Dems should offer border security (not necessarily wall) money in return for a meamingful solution for DACA and the TPS program (both supported by a majority of the public).
  • andrewk
    1.8k
    The Dems should offer border security (not necessarily wall) money in return for a meamingful solution for DACA and the TPS program (both supported by a majority of the public).prothero
    Is that possible? I thought the standoff was precisely because Trump won't sign any funding bill unless it contains money specifically earmarked for his wall.
  • Maw
    1.1k
    Dems capitulating to any wall funding would show extreme weakness after a clear rebut to Trump in the Midterms, along with the fact that surveys show the wall is not popular, illegal immigration is not a concern whatsoever, among public perception and in reality, and Trump's disapproval has increased even among white non-college educated, which is a core base. The onus is on Trump, as per his own words.

    The wall will also never be built. Ever. Even if the Dems did give him 5.7B which is just to kick-start it (actual projections range from $10-$60B) the wall will never be built within Trump's Presidency, even if we assume he wins in 2020 and serves a full second term. Any Dem president will immediately scrap it.
  • prothero
    193
    The wall will also never be built. Ever. Even if the Dems did give him 5.7B which is just to kick-start it (actual projections range from $10-$60B) the wall will never be built within Trump's Presidency, even if we assume he wins in 2020 and serves a full second term. Any Dem president will immediately scrap it.Maw

    That's true. Even if the money was allocated 5billion is just a fraction of the 20 billion or so estimated cost. Not to mention the majority of the border property in Texas is in private hands and would have to confiscated under eminent domain (likely to be many long and costly court cases). So even if he gets the 5 billion only fragments of a wall would be constructed. There are already many segments of wall in place in Arizona, New Mexico and California where the land is mostly government owned. So give him the money if you can get something substantial in return (DACA and TPS).

    Drugs come across in legal crossings, through the mail from China or in shipping containers. Drug lords do not transport their wares in backpacks across the desert. At least half of illegal immigrants enter the country on planes with VISAs and overstay and terrorists (with any training or funding) don't hike across the desert either. I have trouble dealing with this crazy situation where reason and facts just don't seem to matter.
  • prothero
    193
    Is that possible? I thought the standoff was precisely because Trump won't sign any funding bill unless it contains money specifically earmarked for his wall.andrewk

    The dems need to show they are interested in border security (just not a wall). The wall is a fiction anyway, couldn't begin to get it done for that amount of money and in the time Trump likely has left. Public opinion is not based on facts or reason but on perception and border security is an issue that the left cannot afford to look weak about.
  • tim wood
    1.6k
    Trump has made a career of cheating people, fucking people, hurting people, not paying people. He is a horror. The only redemptive aspect of our national encounter with this vicious and cruel manipulator and liar is that we did it to ourselves. Whether he is impeached, dies in office, leaves office and is arrested, or dies in bed of old age; as long as we collectively survive him - and if Putin or the Chinese make a wrong calculation about our weakness as they perceive it through Trump, we may not - if we survive him, then perhaps we learn, maybe for 100 years, to not in that time repeat the mistake.

    And that mistake devolves to individuals. Years ago I did manual labor. No contractor or sub-contractor would have dared to not pay his men. Why not? Simplest of all reasons. He'd have got a leg broken, and if he did not pay, another, and so on until he paid. This didn't apply to honest men of goodwill who might have gone bankrupt, just to cheats.

    But Trump got away with it, and here we are. The government of the United States of America is an infant-man's plaything - and he's giving Putin Christmas every day. Imagine publicizing the secret trip of congresspersons to visit and support US troops in the field, so that they cannot make it because of the risk. Simply disgusting. What happened that we - any of us - have to put up with it?

    But that's the lesson. In short, if anyone cheats you in any way whatsoever, if you can, make it completely clear to that person that he does not ever want to cheat anyone ever again - even possibly lose control of his bowels at the mere thought of it. I think if a long time ago someone had even just showed Trump a carpenter's hammer or hatchet and advised him to clean up his act, then just maybe we wouldn't be here today.

    But tomorrow's Trump is out there. Let him beware. Now we all know better. The law is a great thing; we're a nation of laws; it's laws that protect us. But sometimes the law is not enough. .
  • Relativist
    504
    Feb 16, 2017
    Trump: “DACA is a very, very difficult subject for me...You have these incredible kids, in many cases not in all cases. In some of the cases they’re having DACA and they’re gang members and they’re drug dealers too...I have to deal with a lot of politicians—don’t forget—and I have to convince them that what I’m saying is right. And I appreciate your understanding on that. The DACA situation is a very difficult thing for me as I love these kids, I love kids, I have kids and grand kids and I find it very, very hard doing what the law says exactly to do and, you know, the law is rough. It’s rough, very very rough.”

    So it appears Trump really wants to help Dreamers. So how can his offering to temporarily help Dreamers constitute a compromise? Compromise entails giving something you don't want, or giving up something you DO want.
  • Arkady
    716
    The only redemptive aspect of our national encounter with this vicious and cruel manipulator and liar is that we did it to ourselves.tim wood
    We more or less did it to ourselves, but the majority of voters did not vote for Trump, as Clinton won the popular vote. Recall how Trump was fulminating about voter fraud and how quickly his baseless allegations were dropped. He lies so often, and pushes so many conspiracy theories, baseless assertions and half-truths, that each one in turn is so quickly forgotten, and then it's on the next piece of bullshit. That that we had a sitting American president asserting without evidence widespread voter fraud which tipped the balance of the popular vote - which would be a big deal if true, to put it mildly - would once have struck at the heart of our democracy, but is now a distant memory. It's a new normal, and the new normal isn't good.
  • Inis
    171
    We more or less did it to ourselves, but the majority of voters did not vote for Trump, as Clinton won the popular vote. Recall how Trump was fulminating about voter fraud and how quickly his baseless allegations were dropped.Arkady

    There's a lot going on behind the scenes to counteract voter-fraud.

    https://www.judicialwatch.org/press-room/press-releases/california-and-los-angeles-county-to-remove-1-5-million-inactive-voters-from-voter-rolls-settle-judicial-watch-federal-lawsuit/
  • Arkady
    716

    I'm all for cleaning up voter rolls, but this has little to do with voter fraud per se. These outdated, bloated rolls are mostly due to people having moved or died, not people inventing identifies in order to vote twice or whatever. In-person voter fraud is virtually a non-existent problem. Even more non-existent is evidence for the widespread voting irregularities which Trump said tipped the popular vote in Clinton's favor.
  • Inis
    171

    Sure, LA County has registration rate of 112%, and Broward County FL has more votes cast than registered voters, including the dead ones.

    Nothing to see here.
  • Arkady
    716

    No, there really isn't, actually. As your own Judicial Watch article indicates, most of the abnormally high registration is due to people having moved or died. Again, in-person voter fraud rarely ever happens, and is certainly not swaying any national elections.

    As for your Broward County claim, it's just another false meme.

    https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/broward-county-fraud-voters-votes/
  • S
    6.9k
    It's a real term. I'm not sure what a shut up word is.Benkei

    Ironically, it seems that his bringing that up seems to be a means of sending out the message, "Stop talking about things like xenophobia!", "Don't look any deeper into it!", "Halt!", "Move along, there's nothing to see here!".
  • S
    6.9k
    As for your Broward County claim, it's just another false meme.

    https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/broward-county-fraud-voters-votes/
    Arkady

    Ha! A fact checker website is like kryptonite for this not-so-super con artist.
  • prothero
    193
    The real problem is voter suppression and voter non participation not voter fraud.
    Voter fraud is virtually non existent. Efforts at indirect voter suppression have only increased usually led by republican majorities in state houses. There are many ways to suppress voters (polling locations, polling hours, polling staffing, voter ID, no early voting, no same day registration, removal from voter rolls, and they have all been employed). It is a travesty in the modern world that there are no federal requirements or quidelines for conducting national elections (federal elections are run by the states and the situation in Georgia is indicative of just some of the problems).
  • DiegoT
    314
    The true purpose of this thread about Donald Trump is to use him, as a person, as scapegoat. The scapegoat mechanism, developed by primates, allows you to find comfort in throwing stones in the same direction of a majority, the direction of a politically correct aim. It also lets your brains let off steam, and relieves them from the strain of not being able to speak your repressed thoughts plainly in the whole day, in a society where the range of things that can be said and discussed is reduced gradually year by year.

    If Trump were impeached, another permitted scapegoat would be taken, to receive all the vile that you don´t allow to utter even to yourselves; about other public figures and phenomena whose honest and rational analysis is prohibited by political correctness.

    The joy is increased when somebody sides with the scapegoat Trump, and then you can also elaborate in your mind a stereotypical image of the member, that makes you feel better and smarter by comparison.
  • prothero
    193
    Well you have to admit, he does make himself into an easy target.:wink:
  • S
    6.9k
    The true purpose of this thread about Donald Trump is to use him, as a person, as scapegoat. The scapegoat mechanism, developed by primates, allows you to find comfort in throwing stones in the same direction of a majority, the direction of a politically correct aim. It also lets your brains let off steam, and relieves them from the strain of not being able to speak your repressed thoughts plainly in the whole day, in a society where the range of things that can be said and discussed is reduced gradually year by year.

    If Trump were impeached, another permitted scapegoat would be taken, to receive all the vile that you don´t allow to utter even to yourselves; about other public figures and phenomena whose honest and rational analysis is prohibited by political correctness.

    The joy is increased when somebody sides with the scapegoat Trump, and then you can also elaborate in your mind a stereotypical image of the member, that makes you feel better and smarter by comparison.
    DiegoT

    Thank the heavens above for apologists such as yourself, striding in on your white horse to attempt to defend the indefensible, and drag Trump from out of the sewers, where he's been lurching around rambling incoherently to himself - "Build a wall... rapists... emails... great again... a wall... big strong wall... lock her up..." - and frantically gesticulating all over the place, grabbing any passing sewer whores by their pussy and ejaculating prematurely all over his fat wrinkly self.
  • praxis
    888


    Lol. The true purpose of your post is trolling. Are you honest enough to admit it?
  • Walter Pound
    123
    I guess I am one of the few rightists on this place?
  • prothero
    193
    I guess I am one of the few rightists on this place?Walter Pound

    What does it mean to be a "rightest". I have some traditional conservative principles about smaller more efficient government, personal responsibility, economic or fiscal rationality, local decision making, free trade and promotion of representative elected governments in the world. The problem is the current Republican party and this president in particular represents none of these things.
  • unenlightened
    2.9k
    Are you honest enoughpraxis

    Good question. Everyone needs a dedicated fact check site, like this:

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/politics/trump-claims-database/?utm_term=.e0d278da29e2
bold
italic
underline
strike
code
quote
ulist
image
url
mention
reveal
youtube
tweet
Add a Comment

Welcome to The Philosophy Forum!

Get involved in philosophical discussions about knowledge, truth, language, consciousness, science, politics, religion, logic and mathematics, art, history, and lots more. No ads, no clutter, and very little agreement — just fascinating conversations.