• bahman
    526
    Because the only thing which can be perfect is God. Nothing else can match Gods perfection. For Example, humans can never be perfect when they are living in the "Physical" world as they are burdened with a body which restricts them. God, on the other hand, does not have such a body or physical form as he lives in the world of forms and ideas. He is perfect because he is a soul and does not have a body. In Geometry, if you use your mind and think, you can have two perfectly parallel lines. Those two lines are perfect, straight and parallel. Yet if you try to draw them on a piece of paper you will find such a task to be impossible as you are restricted by the physical world, because the piece of paper, the pencil and human are all imperfect. So actually god does not just create imperfection. The imperfection lies in the material world and the senses, the perefection lies in the metaphysical world and the mind and in God.René Descartes

    I am arguing against an imperfect act which cannot be performed by a perfect being since perfection is the end.
  • bahman
    526
    Bismillah.

    Perfection is in the totality. No end, no beginning. Each part eternally perceived by a timeless creator, that has in itself no limits. Imperfection is a consequence of finitude. I think we might perceive imperfection because we are parts looking at parts, and the totality is beyond our capacity. When we look at something, we have to neglect everything else to see it. When you shine a torch in the night to see, you may illuminate what you point it at, but you make the darkness around it even darker.

    Although we may describe things as imperfect, our description exists as one layer among indefinite layers. So although to some degree it may be correct for us to describe it as such from our relative perspective, taking the totality into consideration leads one having to ponder whether or not it may be a deception to think in such terms.

    Best I think, to submit to the creator. What will be will be.

    Peace be with you.
    Mr Phil O'Sophy

    The whole is sum of its parts and each parts is imperfect therefore the whole is imperfect. In fact we can grasp the whole. The whole also is subject to change therefore it is not perfect.
  • bahman
    526
    Maybe he made the perfect mistake?Sir2u

    The question is about ability. Does God have power to create imperfect thing? Is it logically possible.

    Or maybe it is only humans that see them as imperfections.Sir2u

    Things are imperfect since they are subject to motion. Motion is not an illusion.

    Or made he did not create anything at all and the imperfections came about just as the perfections did.Sir2u

    Maybe.
  • bahman
    526
    It would be better if you can give some examples of imperfections which is created (by God)Santanu

    Things were in motion after creation and they still are in motion. Therefore things have been not perfect.
  • Santanu
    27
    Things were in motion after creation and they still are in motion. Therefore things have been not perfect.bahman

    If motion is imperfection, perfect does not exist at all and probably is beyond imagination.
    If God is an intelligent being and creator of everything, why should He do so?

    If He has created out of pleasure, then He is too irresponsible to break the perfect symmetry
    If He has created out of kindness/ pity, then question is for whom was this kindness (there was nothing before in perfect condition), the unnecessary kindness is akin to ridicule/ mockery to His own creation
    If He has created out of no reason, then He is an Idiot

    In all these cases it goes against the concept of God as the creator of everything. If God is without a form/ body, it itself cannot initiate any creativity. If God is ultimate intelligent being, there must be someone more intelligent who created God. That's an infinite loop. I would prefer to keep it simple and imagine that the motion/ imperfection always existed.

    PS: These are philosophical thoughts of early Indian Philosophers during 7th century BC (Buddhism, Jainism, some factions of Mimamsa etc.)
  • bahman
    526
    If motion is imperfection, perfect does not exist at all and probably is beyond imagination.
    If God is an intelligent being and creator of everything, why should He do so?

    If He has created out of pleasure, then He is too irresponsible to break the perfect symmetry
    If He has created out of kindness/ pity, then question is for whom was this kindness (there was nothing before in perfect condition), the unnecessary kindness is akin to ridicule/ mockery to His own creation
    If He has created out of no reason, then He is an Idiot
    Santanu

    You are right with your observation. But the question is about ability to create imperfection. Perfection is the end.

    In all these cases it goes against the concept of God as the creator of everything. If God is without a form/ body, it itself cannot initiate any creativity. If God is ultimate intelligent being, there must be someone more intelligent who created God. That's an infinite loop. I would prefer to keep it simple and imagine that the motion/ imperfection always existed.Santanu

    That is logically impossible too. The argument for this is as following: You cannot reach from infinite past to now with waiting. Therefore there is a beginning.

    PS: These are philosophical thoughts of early Indian Philosophers during 7th century BC (Buddhism, Jainism, some factions of Mimamsa etc.)Santanu

    Interesting.
  • Santanu
    27
    That is logically impossible too. The argument for this is as following: You cannot reach from infinite past to now with waiting. Therefore there is a beginning.bahman

    For this there is the "Big Bang Theory". Armand Delsemme in "Our cosmic origin" imagined a possible way of start at Big Bang. It too comes with its own baggage of problems though.
  • bahman
    526
    For this there is the "Big Bang Theory". Armand Delsemme in "Our cosmic origin" imagined a possible way of start at Big Bang. It too comes with its own baggage of problems though.Santanu

    Yes, we simply don't know.
  • Santanu
    27
    Yes, we simply don't know.bahman

    To me, this question itself is not that important to know, if at all knowable. We can move on with a theory whichever fits best to most circumstances. If somehow later, we come to know a perfect reason, it will be a bonus.

    That we exist, and irrespective of how we are created, more important question will be what should we do next. Is there a objective answer?
  • Sir2u
    3.2k
    The question is about ability. Does God have power to create imperfect thing? Is it logically possible.bahman

    Of course he can, he created the perfect mistake. We are the ones that see it as imperfection.
  • bahman
    526
    Of course he can, he created the perfect mistake. We are the ones that see it as imperfection.Sir2u

    So perfection is not the end and you need to say what is wrong with my argument.
  • deletedmemberwy
    1k
    Things can always be described as lacking their opposites. Light is the absence of dark, is no more a correct statement than darkness being the absence of light. Same with heat and cold, etc.Mr Phil O'Sophy

    Can you study the substance of darkness or cold? Of course not, as there is nothing to study other than the limited amount of light or cold.

    No created things last for an infinite amount of time, everything tends towards disorder and so has an end. And if it has a beginning then it can not be perfect because that implies that it once was not, and how can perfection have not ever been.Mr Phil O'Sophy
    If it was created perfectly, then it would remain perfect until something blemished it. It is perfectly possible to have something not decay if no change was brought about. Something cannot come from nothing, so completeness must be brought by something. Nothing, in and of itself, is essentially perfect nothing, so perfection was still there, but in the manner of nothing. Once the creation of a substance is formed, then that becomes a perfect something. If one comes and erases part of that something, and detracts from its completeness, then it becomes imperfect. Essentially, it must be that whatever substance is brought about (or lack thereof) must be fully complete. Perfect nothing must not contain any sort of substance, and perfect something must be completely formed and not have any aspect of fault.

    If it is truly perfect, it can not be faulted, nor can it become finite. If it can, then it was always finite to begin with. Perfection does not lack anything, and for it to be perfect it can not ever lack anything. You keep describing perfect as imperfect, which is like describing light by the qualities of dark, and for some reason overlooking the flaw you're making.Mr Phil O'Sophy

    Of the supposition that perfection cannot be faulted, there does not seem to be ample evidence, as I have demonstrated how it could come about. I have described perfect as the completion of the substance, with no fault.
  • Sir2u
    3.2k
    So perfection is not the endbahman

    The end of what?

    and you need to say what is wrong with my argument.bahman

    I doubt that there is anything wrong with your argument.
  • deletedmemberwy
    1k
    I never said it requires you. But if you are making the claim that person A is moving towards it to erase it then the thing (i.e. the painting) being moved towards cannot be described as perfect because it lacks something. i.e. the person moving towards it. So again, the example you give of a perfect thing was not perfect in the first place, once again describing light with the qualities of darkness.Mr Phil O'Sophy

    This is supposing that perfection must require ALL things, which clearly is not the case. It merely requires the completion of the substance, which generally requires integrated structure in an orderly form and to be perfectly functional, that is to say, complete.
  • deletedmemberwy
    1k
    That is logically impossible since an imperfect being/thing doesn't change.bahman
    Essentially, it could become perfect again upon its completion or re-completion.
  • Sir2u
    3.2k
    That is logically impossible since an imperfect being/thing doesn't change.bahman

    Hey, wait a minute there. I am imperfect, does that mean that I have no chance of changing.
    Man, I am so screwed.
  • bahman
    526
    So perfection is not the end
    — bahman

    The end of what?
    Sir2u

    The end at which you reach to perfection, if this practically possible.

    and you need to say what is wrong with my argument.
    — bahman

    I doubt that there is anything wrong with your argument.
    Sir2u

    If my argument is correct then God cannot create imperfection.
  • bahman
    526
    Essentially, it could become perfect again upon its completion or re-completion.Lone Wolf

    If creation could become perfect then we have new Gods. So what is the purpose of not creating Gods in the first place.
  • bahman
    526
    Hey, wait a minute there. I am imperfect, does that mean that I have no chance of changing.
    Man, I am so screwed.
    Sir2u

    If you become perfect then it you could not make a irrational act and create imperfect creation. That is against divine justice. It is logically impossible. The same is true if Perfection, God, is the first place.
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