• Rich
    3.2k
    However, the type of determinism that really exists is quite different!tom

    The biggest problem with determinism it's that there is absolutely zero evidence for it. Other than that, it is a nice story of how the Laws of Nature (God) determines everything.

    The biggest contribution that QM has had on philosophy is that it finally put to rest the possibility that there could actually be a deterministic universe.
  • SonJnana
    243
    A group of matter that is experiencing? Care to take a stab at the line of demarcation and how that group is performing that trick. Are they talking to each other?Rich

    I don’t think it’s that mysterious. Matter interacts with other matter and energy. We can see this at the less sophisticated forms of life like bacteria. A lizard is also dependent on matter and energy. A lizard is more sophisticated than bacteria so it can interact in more complex ways. But it is still just a bunch of chemical reactions and physics. Many mammals can take it a step further where because of the way they happen to be, they will react to more social cues because through evolution it was useful. And Humans have taken it all a step further where we’ve evolved to be able to react to our own reactions in the sense that we can think about our own thoughts. More of an internal awareness. But it’s all just reactions.

    Do you believe in a soul? If so, I ask why. From my studies, there is nothing in psychology to suggest that psychology is anything but biology. Biology is chemistry, and chemistry is physics.

    As for meaning, it is all about illusion. Hence, an enlightened Determinist realizes that life has no meaning because they are able to see right through the illusion.Rich

    Can an “enlightened Determinist” honestly doubt to themselves that eating something causes electrochemical messages to their brain that they experience as tastey? (in the practical sense that we use the word tastey).

    It's amazing that there are grown adults who actually believe all this.Rich

    Chill lol
  • tom
    1.5k
    The biggest problem with determinism it's that there is absolutely zero evidence for it. Other than that, it is a nice story of how the Laws of Nature (God) determines everything.Rich

    Except that our deepest theories of reality are deterministic, and have been tested to extraordinary accuracy. No violation of Unitarity has ever been discovered.

    The biggest contribution that QM has had on philosophy is that it finally put to rest the possibility that there could actually be a deterministic universe.Rich

    You don't know the first thing about QM.
  • Rich
    3.2k
    Matter interacts with other matter and energy.SonJnana

    And that is about it. The rest is a magical mystery tale, conjured up by atheists so that they have their own God to worship. It is really quite amazing to observe. Basically it demonstrates that everyone needs their own God whatever the name they choose to use.
  • Rich
    3.2k
    Except that our deepest theories of reality are deterministic,tom

    There is only one deep theory about nature and that is QM which is totally probabilistic. Other than this, you have the Laws of Nature which is not a theory but a Pagan God.

    You don't know the first thing about QM.tom

    It's a probabilistic wave. Period.
  • charleton
    1.2k
    As I said Darwin wrote about this. He admitted his theory requires chance as an ontological ultimate.tom

    Oh yeah!! Where it that? "Ontological Ultimate" is not an expression uttered by Darwin. SO who are you kidding?

    Chance is a deterministic proposition; pure randomness is not.
  • SonJnana
    243
    And that is about it. The rest is a magical mystery tale, conjured up by atheists so that they have their own God to worship. It is really quite amazing to observe. Basically it demonstrates that everyone needs their own God whatever the name they choose to use.Rich

    Why don't you actually read what I have to say and explain what about it and why it is you disagree with it rather than dismiss it and make condescending statements? Are you just a troll? lol

    Where is it that you draw the line so I can understand your logic? You agree that matter interacts with matter so if acid is put in water it will dissociate to make an acidic aqueous solution. Do you agree that a virus is also a bunch of reactions that are more complex? And what about bacteria then?
  • Rich
    3.2k
    So matter interacts with matter. Ok. And the rest of the story, I mean the whole story... pure, unadulterated story telling, of the most creative type. Determinism is a testament to modern myth creation. In a thousand years they'll be studying it as the Greek Gods are studied.

    You want me to take the story seriously? Ok, I realize all religions want to be, demand to be taken seriously. The Laws of Nature are sacred. Everything depends upon believing in them and all that they (He) can do.
  • SonJnana
    243
    So matter interacts with matter. Ok. And the rest of the story, I mean the whole story... pure, unadulterated story telling, of the most creative type.Rich

    You've agreed that matter interacts with matter and energy. Is the case of a virus and/or bacteria also just matter and energy interacting with matter and energy. Chemistry and physics? Yes or No?

    Also, do you have any reason to believe that anything in our universe is independent from cause and effect? Yes or no?

    You can answer these questions so we can have a productive discussion. You can also just dismiss them and go on with your condescending statements in which case I'll just laugh at myself for realizing I engaged with a troll for so long.
  • Rich
    3.2k
    To leapfrom matter interacts with energy to the whole universe and everything we feel and experience is what is called faith. You want this story to be taken seriously, then start being serious and don't expect me to get excited over every story that people can make up.

    You have to fill in the Huge blank between "matter interacts" and EVERYTHING. Even the Bible had more than this. Basically the story is the Laws of Nature did everything as opposed to God did everything. Nice story.
  • Metaphysician Undercover
    4.2k
    Free will in normal parlance simply means not coerced, and that is a legal definition.charleton

    This is false, there is no legal definition of "free will", it is a philosophical term. And philosophical terms often have a meaning in common vernacular which is quite different from their meaning in philosophy, as is the case with many terms which are proper to a particular field of study but have been adopted into common speech.

    Philosophers do not own the language. If you were asked in court whether or not you freely made a choice, as a determinist you are able to say yes without obfuscation.charleton

    This is a philosophy forum so I think it is only proper that we be discussing the meaning which "free will" has in philosophy. If you see a particularly good reason why you think that free will should be given another meaning, then you should offer up a good argument. But to say that "freewill " ought to be given another meaning because this will make it compatible with determinism, and I am determinist but it would make me feel better if I could believe that I have free will as well as being determined, is nonsense.

    Try and tell a judge that all acts are deterministic and therefor I was not free to chose not to steal the car!!!charleton

    It just so happens, that the entire legal system is based on the assumption that free will is very real. So the claim, I am determinist and therefore I am not responsible for my actions, doesn't go over very well in court.
  • SonJnana
    243
    To leapfrom matter interacts with energy to the whole universe and everything we feel and experience is what is called faith. You want this story to be taken seriously, then start being serious and don't expect me to get excited over every story that people can make up.Rich

    You say that I have to explain it. And when I attempt to explain it you ignore the questions I had asked and dismiss my attempt. Anyway I'm not wasting my time anymore on your self-righteousness LOL
  • Rich
    3.2k
    What did you explain? It just happened? Some particles interacted and Voila! existence? And particles and interactions? The Big Bang Genesis)? Where do they come from? As I said, Determinism is a religion. It is just the same story told for eons with different words and to understand this gives one insights into how religions develop. It is part of the human journey.
  • SonJnana
    243
    What did you explain? It just happened? Some particles interacted and Voila! existence? And particles and interactions? The Big Bang Genesis)? Where do they come from? As I said, Determinism is a religion. It is just the same story told for eons with different words and to understand this gives one insights into how religions develop. It is part of the human journey.Rich

    Our whole discussion started when you quoted half of my sentence in a post where I had said assuming determinism. Then you went on to say in a deterministic world there would be no meaning and that humans couldn't give meaning to anything to which I refuted. Then you tried to refute that by saying in a deterministic world there could be no way that experience the way humans experience it could arise to which I was trying to refute. But instead of reading what I was saying you dismissed it and acted self-righteous.

    And now you're completely changing the argument and saying "well oh you have to demonstrate determinism." But I never even claimed that determinism is true. I don't have to demonstrate anything. I was just saying that your logic is flawed when you say that determinism can't be true because humans experience things.
  • Rich
    3.2k
    OK. Determinism isn't true, so no reason to discuss it. There are more pressing issues that deserve attention.
  • SonJnana
    243
    It may or may not be true. But yes I agree there are more pressing issues because there is a lot more we need to understanding about the universe before claiming that it is deterministic or not.
  • Metaphysician Undercover
    4.2k

    Actually, I think it's the other way around. Once we realize that determinism is wrong, this puts us on the right track toward understanding the universe.
  • SonJnana
    243
    So you believe that determinism isn't true? Why do you believe that?
  • Michael
    7k
    What is compatibilist definition of free will?bahman

    That one's will determines one's actions. Whether or not one's will is determined is irrelevant (to the compatibilist). As Schopenhauer said, "Man can do what he wills but he cannot will what he wills."

    Edit: I missed @charleton already saying exactly this.
  • tom
    1.5k
    There is only one deep theory about nature and that is QM which is totally probabilistic. Other than this, you have the Laws of Nature which is not a theory but a Pagan God.Rich

    Like I said, you know nothing about QM.
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