• bahman
    317
    I think we can agree on the fact that brain is a set of neurons which they interact with each other. Any mental state, physical state of brain, leads into another mental state by following laws of physics. This is a deterministic chain of causality. Free will in another hand is the ability to initiate or terminate a chain of causality. This is true since we are dealing with two options in an undecided situation which this requires an agent to choose one of the options and initiate a chain of causality. This, initiating or terminating a causal chain, is impossible in a physical/deterministic world. Therefore compatibilism is impossible.
  • charleton
    659
    Free will in another hand is the ability to initiate or terminate a chain of causalitybahman

    What causes this?
    Agents follow from causes too.
    Your conclusion is not warranted. Compatibilism is a deterministic picture which recognises the idea of free-will as caused and causal agency. It does not posit an agent that can act regardless of causality. It's a matter of perspective, and answers the problem of apparent acts of will.
  • bahman
    317
    What causes this?
    Agents follow from causes too.
    charleton

    That is not correct. What does initiate a chain of causality if even the agent follow causality too?

    Your conclusion is not warranted. Compatibilism is a deterministic picture which recognises the idea of free-will as caused and causal agency.charleton

    What is your definition of free will? I cannot comprehend what you are trying to say here.

    It does not posit an agent that can act regardless of causality.charleton

    This means that the agent is not free.

    It's a matter of perspective, and answers the problem of apparent acts of will.charleton

    Apparent? It is not apparent at all.
  • charleton
    659
    What causes this?
    Agents follow from causes too.
    — charleton

    That is not correct. What does initiate a chain of causality if even the agent follow causality too?
    bahman

    Are you saying that individual human agents are free from necessity?
    The chains of causality are not initiated except by the big bang, and maybe not even then.
    I do not understand your objection.
  • charleton
    659
    Apparent? It is not apparent at all.bahman

    ??? Are you trying say there are no acts of will? Or that they are not apparent, but real?
  • bahman
    317
    Are you saying that individual human agents are free from necessity?charleton

    No. I am saying given a situation which is defined by a set of options an agent can decide and choose one of the option only if he can initiate a chain of causality.

    The chains of causality are not initiated except by the big bang, and maybe not even then.charleton

    Therefore we are not free given the definition of free will.

    I do not understand your objection.charleton

    I hope that it is clear by now.
  • bahman
    317
    ??? Are you trying say there are no acts of will? Or that they are not apparent, but real?charleton

    I am saying that act of will is impossible in a deterministic world. Therefore compatibilism is wrong.
  • charleton
    659
    No. I am saying given a situation which is defined by a set of options an agent can decide and choose one of the option only if he can initiate a chain of causality.bahman

    You mean that an agent is free from necessity!
    Therefore we are not free given the definition of free will.bahman

    Yes. we are not free of necessity.

    This is where the perspective of compatibilism comes in. We observe people making apparent acts of will all the time. Since we can never be party to the causal chains in side a person's brain, these acts of will are deterministic, but appear to be freely made.
  • bahman
    317
    No. I am saying given a situation which is defined by a set of options an agent can decide and choose one of the option only if he can initiate a chain of causality.
    — bahman

    You mean that an agent is free from necessity!
    charleton

    Did what I say not clear? Of course we are bounded with many things but we might be free given the definition of free will in OP.

    Therefore we are not free given the definition of free will.
    — bahman

    Yes. We are not free of necessity.
    charleton

    But we should be able to initiate a chain of causality otherwise we are not free.

    This is where the perspective of compatibilism comes in. We observe people making apparent acts of will all the time. Since we can never be party to the causal chains in side a person's brain, these acts of will are deterministic, but appear to be freely made.charleton

    Appear? I am arguing against compatibilism.
  • Rich
    2.6k
    think we can agree on the fact that brain is a set of neurons which they interact with each other. Any mental state, physical state of brain, leads into another mental state by following laws of physics.bahman

    You realize that there is zero evidence for either of these statements. Your "fact" it's a belief.
  • charleton
    659
    You realize that there is zero evidence for either of these statements. Your "fact" it's a belief.Rich

    Have you any reason to suppose that what we see in nature does not also apply to us?
    The assertion of the idea that necessity; the rule of cause and effect is ubiquitous is an inductive truth that has never been demonstrated to be false.
  • charleton
    659
    Appear? I am arguing against compatibilism.bahman

    No - you are misconceiving it.
  • Rich
    2.6k
    Have you any reason to suppose that what we see in nature does not also apply to us?charleton

    What exactly do you see in nature? I see change/evolution.

    What "rule" of cause and effect are you referring to? The one at the quantum level?
  • bahman
    317
    You realize that there is zero evidence for either of these statements. Your "fact" it's a belief.Rich

    What do you believe? What is the use of brain?
  • bahman
    317
    No - you are misconceiving it.charleton

    Could you please elaborate?
  • Rich
    2.6k
    What is the use of brain?[/quote]

    I use my brain.
  • bahman
    317
    I use my brain.Rich

    Come on. Please elaborate.
  • Rich
    2.6k
    The above statement basically says it all. I use my brain pretty much in the same way I might use a transmitter/receiver. It is a tool of the mind.
  • bahman
    317

    And what is mind?
  • Rich
    2.6k
    And what is mind?bahman

    It's what is exploring, creating, and communicating. It's us.
  • bahman
    317
    It's what is exploring, creating, and communicating. It's us.Rich

    Is it brain dependent or is something separate like soul?
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