• Wayfarer
    4.8k
    It has a certain Frankensteinian feel to it - like, a monster has been created, and nobody really knows what it's going to do, but it's crashing around the room and going totally out of control. The very fact that it's decentralised and nobody's in control, means that in some respects it's like a rogue algorithm. Scary, if you ask me.
  • Baden
    3.4k

    I doubt it'll break $20K. Pixie dust will only sell to the extent that people believe in pixie dust and crucially also believe that other people believe in it. The current boost has been driven by positive mainstream news headlines that suggested there was money to be made in BTC and blogs all over the internet that suggested the same (probably self-servingly in most cases). But at this point with the media already turning to mostly bubble talk it's a case for any investor with their eyes even half open of "I know the guy is naked but just how blind is the rest of the crowd?"

    (I don't think that has much to do with its intrinsic worth as a currency tool btw as any intrinsic worth it has from that perspective is still going to be closer to $1 per unit than even $100).
  • Michael
    4.8k
    Finally got approved. CoinBase sucks. £11 transfer fee sending £39 worth of Bitcoin to Bittrex (currently I have a £50 weekly limit). Ugh. Hopefully one of the other ones are much cheaper (when I'm finally approved).

    Edit: There's a workaround to avoid transfer fees. Damn. If only I'd seen this sooner.
  • Benkei
    802
    The only case where it makes sense really is for illegal activities. Drugs, arms trading, etc.Agustino

    That's not the case. It's a great way to standardise structured products for instance and sell them to interested parties. Value of the crypto currency could then be related to the underlyings - or you could just use the block chain technology and not the crypto currency itself and still handle "cash" normally.
  • Cavacava
    1.8k
    I saw that Bitcoin had $2500 negative bounce yesterday. Perhaps that bounce was due to ]article ] news of the introduction of a futures market in Chicago on Sunday Evening. Derivatives work well when there is a lot of volatility. Opening of a futures market in Bitcoin will open it up in many ways:

    The derivatives contracts should thrust bitcoin more squarely into the realm of regulators, banks and institutional investors. In addition to the contracts at Cboe and CME, which will start trading Dec. 18, Cantor Fitzgerald LP won approval from regulators to trade binary options, and LedgerX, a startup exchange, already trades bitcoin options.

    I also read about Lightning Network, which is apparently is producing software that customers can run along the Bitcoin network and which will speed up transactions, the test runs have worked.

    Rather than updating bitcoin's underlying software (which has proven to be a messy process), Lightning essentially adds an extra layer to the tech, one where transactions can be made more cheaply and quickly, but with, hypothetically, the same security backing of the blockchain.
  • fishfry
    296
    introduction of a futures marketCavacava

    I saw a video where they pointed out that shorting bitcoin futures is a perfectly sensible hedging tactic for bitcoin miners. It costs a lot in electricity to mine bitcoin, and if the price drops you're essentially losing money just running the computers. By buying short contracts (bets the price will go down) they can stabilize their mining business by protecting it against drops in the price of bitcoin. I thought that was interesting. It's basically what the wheat and soybean farmers have been doing for decades.

    I also read about Lightning NetworkCavacava

    This actually concerns me. If you have a communication protocol that is so slow and clunky that it needs an auxiliary protocol for it to work, there's something wrong with the design. If the Lightning network is secure, why do we need the underlying bitcoin layer at all? Maybe it makes sense to scrap bitcoin and build the next generation cryptocurrency directly on some variant of the Lightning network.

    I'm trying to learn more about the Lightning network to see if my impression is correct. On the other hand if Lightning actually works and scales up, it could solve a lot of the bitcoin scalability issues.
  • VagabondSpectre
    781
    Thank you for sharing your knowledge with me. It gives me a sense of comfort knowing I am around people smarter than I. (Y)ArguingWAristotleTiff

    Heh, I didn't mean to sound like a preachy douche, but after years of conspiracy theorists telling me that the American government owes $1.50 for every $1.00 the Zionist owned Federal Reserve "lends" them, I've been eager to put my research to work.

    IIRC the idea of a state incorporating private banks into national services in this manner began with the bank of England. Wiki notes:

    England's crushing defeat by France, the dominant naval power, in naval engagements culminating in the 1690 Battle of Beachy Head, became the catalyst for England's rebuilding itself as a global power. England had no choice but to build a powerful navy. No public funds were available, and the credit of William III's government was so low in London that it was impossible for it to borrow the £1,200,000 (at 8% p.a.) that the government wanted.

    To induce subscription to the loan, the subscribers were to be incorporated by the name of the Governor and Company of the Bank of England. The Bank was given exclusive possession of the government's balances, and was the only limited-liability corporation allowed to issue bank notes.[15] The lenders would give the government cash (bullion) and issue notes against the government bonds, which can be lent again. The £1.2m was raised in 12 days; half of this was used to rebuild the navy.
    wiki

    The Federal Reserve doesn't print actual money though, it lends digital credit to it's member banks and charges them variable interest rates (which makes the member banks more financially secured, and influences the interest rates they charge as a regulatory force). So rather than the FED banks lending to the American government in the way the BoE lent to the King, they lend to banks who lend to the public in order to positively influence overall stability. Without the FED, banks at large might start drastically altering interest rates in response to perceived economic crises, which can create a genuine crisis in and of itself.

    Apparently there are over 10 trillion US dollars in existence, but most of them are digital. Only about 1.2 trillion in US cash physically exists. If more US cash is to be printed, the US treasury will be the ones to actually print it, but they too have more than a fiduciary responsibility to ensure economic stability. Even if they went wild and printed a trillion in cash for the US government it would only inflate the currency by about 10%.

    Crypto-fanatics rightly understand that faith and trust is the bedrock of any currency, even gold, but they don't seem to understand what makes institutions and foreign governments actually have faith and trust in the American dollar.
  • ArguingWAristotleTiff
    1.4k
    Heh, I didn't mean to sound like a preachy douche, but after years of conspiracy theorists telling me that the American government owes $1.50 for every $1.00 the Zionist owned Federal Reserve "lends" them, I've been eager to put my research to work.VagabondSpectre

    I was serious in my Thanks and I hope you took it that way as that is how it was intended. I feel a great deal of comfort in surrounding myself with people that are smarter than I, in fields I know a little to none of, than faking that I know something. I am here to learn and I appreciate you taking the time to explain it to me.

    The Federal Reserve doesn't print actual money though, it lends digital credit to it's member banks and charges them variable interest rates (which makes the member banks more financially secured, and influences the interest rates they charge as a regulatory force). So rather than the FED banks lending to the American government in the way the BoE lent to the King, they lend to banks who lend to the public in order to positively influence overall stability. Without the FED, banks at large might start drastically altering interest rates in response to perceived economic crises, which can create a genuine crisis in and of itself.VagabondSpectre

    I wish the banks were not as large as they are. I have been named in 4 class action lawsuits with Wells Fargo and when they charged the loan to my ranch, I was a victim of predatory lending. My husband and I filled out our paperwork, came into sign the final copy and between the time I filled out the paperwork and the final copy prepared, I was marked as being a Latino and so was then charged an increase in mortgage rate for 10 years. I get one letter from the Department of Justice asking two questions and in answering them I would be paid the difference between a normal loan and a Latino loan, in the amount of $9k to $13k. Two questions: Have you been the owner of the said address for the last 5 years or more. Yes. Question: Are you Latino? Ummm, well my file has been handled as a Latino, I have been screwed over by Wells Fargo like the Latinos, so no I am not Latino but I have been handled as one.

    After months of debate with Wells Fargo and DOJ, the bottom line was, that even though I DID NOT mark myself as Latino, the final paperwork I signed said I was Latino and that was the final determination. So I said okay than pay my rightful claim as a Latino and the DOJ said I could not be included in the class action because I was not Latino and I would need to sue Wells Fargo on my own. After a year of this pursuit I stopped banging my head on the wall.

    The next letter I get from Wells saying I am a participant in the latest class action, I am walking into my branch and asking for a Punch card because surely after your 6th Class action lawsuit you should at least get a toaster, right?
  • ArguingWAristotleTiff
    1.4k
    I thought I heard that BitCoin was going to be traded on Chicago's Mercantile Exchange starting tomorrow 12.11.17 but I read now it is set for next Monday.
    Does that mean that if we are going to invest in BitCoin as opposed to Ethereum we should do it by next 12.18.17?
  • fishfry
    296
    I thought I heard that BitCoin was going to be traded on Chicago's Mercantile Exchange starting tomorrow 12.11.17 but I read now it is set for next Monday.
    Does that mean that if we are going to invest in BitCoin as opposed to Ethereum we should do it by next 12.18.17?
    ArguingWAristotleTiff

    Bitcoin FUTURES will be traded. These will be "cash-settled" futures, meaning that no bitcoin are harmed in the making of this motion picture. No bitcoin are ever bought or sold. Rather, you're placing bets on what the price will be. The futures are not backed by bitcoin. The CME and CBOE will decide on their official reference price for the day and the futures contracts will settle with respect to that price.

    Nobody has any idea what the futures trading will do to the price of bitcoin. Some say the influence of big money and professional traders will stabilize the price of bitcoin. Others say that the wild fluctuations in bitcoin may bring down some of the smaller futures trading companies and crash the economy. Nobody has any idea what's going to happen.

    One of the interesting factors is that the CME and CBOE trade during business hours five days a week, while bitcoin trades 24/7/365. If bitcoin has a big price move over a given weekend, there would in theory be huge arbitrage opportunities on Monday morning.

    I'd say just wait it out for a week and see what happens. Or jump in and enjoy the ride.
  • ssu
    322
    Bitcoin FUTURES will be traded. These will be "cash-settled" futures, meaning that no bitcoin are harmed in the making of this motion picture. No bitcoin are ever bought or sold. Rather, you're placing bets on what the price will be. The futures are not backed by bitcoin. The CME and CBOE will decide on their official reference price for the day and the futures contracts will settle with respect to that price.fishfry
    Standard thing in any derivatives market. In any commodities market the majority of people aren't there Trading in order to actually buy/sell the actual commodity.

    I think the bitcoin mania is just a sign that this bull market is quite old now.
  • Agustino
    8.7k
    It's a great way to standardise structured products for instance and sell them to interested parties.Benkei
    Could you break this up for me in more detail please? Sorry, but I'm not fully up to speed with all the technology behind it.
  • fishfry
    296
    ↪fishfry Finally got approved. CoinBase sucks. £11 transfer fee sending £39 worth of Bitcoin to Bittrex (currently I have a £50 weekly limit). Ugh. Hopefully one of the other ones are much cheaper (when I'm finally approved).Michael

    I gave up on Coinbase and I'm stuck for days in Gemini's approval process. I'm going to try Cex next. So in the end I'll have to give my personal info to all the exchanges out there and see who finally accepts me. And the exchanges are so insecure that it's just a matter of time till everyone's personal info is hacked.

    This system is totally not ready for prime time. The bitcoin bulls say the "herd" is about to show up and boost the price, but there is no way Jill and Joe Public are getting into this thing any time soon. Learning how to use bitcoin and secure your wallet is seriously complicated right now.

    So if the public can't get in and can't figure it out, who is moving the prices? Is it two guys in a room trading back and forth before they dump? It's not completely out of the question.

    In other news ...

    CBOE Bitcoin Futures Site Immediately Crashes.

    To be accurate, that headline's a little over the top. They basically had some standard hiccups for a new popular website but they seem to be up and running. The world hasn't ended yet.
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