Could millions be liars and or delusional and or themselves persuaded before its first conversion into data? Maybe, but assume not. Could you say (and I haven't looked into this) the same about those who claim to be born again, saved by the holy spirit (speaking in tongues, muscle spasms, new outlook etc) or those who claim Satori etc? Or visitations/alien viewings? — ENOAH

Of course it's not just the numbers, as I've said, it's all the criteria that make a strong inductive argument. So, the numbers are impressive, but numbers don't give us the truth or the facts. You have to look at the testimonial evidence as a whole which leads to a strong conclusion.

I don't put much stock in religious belief, there is some overlap, but overall, the evidence for an afterlife based on NDEs is overwhelming. The evidence for some religious belief is very subjective and flimsy. NDEs give a much better picture of the afterlife than any religious view and with stronger testimonial evidence.

What if there might be other explanations for the consistencies besides that the claims are factual? — ENOAH

I never said that NDEs are consistent because they are factual. I said that the fact that NDEs are generally consistent gives support to the truth of the testimonials.

I take the testimonials at face value unless there are good reasons not to. I would suggest re-reading that post so that you fully understand the logic.

Thanks for the compliment, and the reply.

How can I know that the experience that I'm having (or remember having) is a near death experience? — jkop

If you had an NDE it wouldn't be something that easily forgotten. Moreover, you would know based on what others have reported and comparing your experience with theirs.

Just listen to this NDE, it may answer your questions.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5ZfaPCwjguk

Your one major problem is that in every case of "life after death" experience, the patient has never been fully brain dead. Meaning these are living experiences, not after death experiences. Sorry, there is no evidence of life after death. Conclusively.

I'm not sure what you mean by fully brain-dead. People have had these experiences when there is no measurable brain activity. They have also been reported with the blood completely drained from their brain. Besides what matters are their reports while claiming to be outside their bodies, and that these reports have been corroborated thousands and thousands of times which adds an objective component to the testimonials.

I never referred to these experiences as after-death experiences, those are your words, not mine.

To say that "...there is no evidence of life after death" is just an expression of an opinion. I've given a well-structured inductive argument that supports my conclusion.

↪Philosophim I'm not sure what you mean by fully brain-dead. People have had these experiences when there is no measurable brain activity. — Sam26

Incorrect. Cite me a case in which a person had complete brain death and I'll recant.

They have also been reported with the blood completely drained from their brains. — Sam26

This is again, impossible. To completely drain the blood from a brain you would have to completely drain the blood from the body. Again, cite this case please.

Besides what matters are their reports while claiming to be outside their bodies, and that these reports have been corroborated thousands and thousands of times which adds an objective component to the testimonials. — Sam26

And what about the thousands and thousands of cases in which there was no testimonial? In which a person was simply completely unconscious and nothing more? My Aunt had a near death experience and she said she was being stabbed and tortured. She was a good person. Are we going to simply brush that under the rug? Cherry picking what you're looking for and saying you have a lot of similar cases is not a viable argument.

I never referred to these experiences as after-death experiences, those are your words, not mine.

To say that "...there is no evidence of life after death" is just an expression of an opinion. — Sam26

No. It is a cold and unerring fact. First, we can cite the complete lack of objective evidence. There has never been any signs of life after something has died. Second, we can cite the objective evidence of how the brain functions, and how it ties to people's personalities and ability to function in the world. Years of drug studies and brain surgery have demonstrated that you are your brain. There is no other alternative.

You will die. I will die. We all, will die. Don't waste what precious life and purpose you have on thinking that fantasy and fiction are real. Go and enjoy every precious second. You'll never get any of them back.

Incorrect. Cite me a case in which a person had complete brain death and I'll recant. — Philosophim

I'll ask you one more time, what do you mean by complete brain death? I never use any such terms. When I speak of death, I mean clinical death, i.e., no measurable brain activity, no heartbeat, and no breathing. Are you disputing that there are any NDEs that occur when a person is pronounced clinically dead? If you want an e.g. of someone who had an NDE when there was no measurable brain activity then I would give the example of Pam's NDE out of Atlanta, GA

They have also been reported with the blood completely drained from their brains.
— Sam26

This is again, impossible. To completely drain the blood from a brain you would have to completely drain the blood from the body. Again, cite this case please. — Philosophim

This is a well documented case, here is one of many videos on this NDE.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WNbdUEqDB-k

No. It is a cold and unerring fact. First, we can cite the complete lack of objective evidence. There has never been any signs of life after something has died. Second, we can cite the objective evidence of how the brain functions, and how it ties to people's personalities and ability to function in the world. Years of drug studies and brain surgery have demonstrated that you are your brain. There is no other alternative. — Philosophim

First, what you're claiming is not an unerring fact. Just because someone claims something is factual doesn't make it so. And your claim that there is no objective evidence shows just how little you know of the subject. Many thousands of NDE testimonials have been corroborated by doctors, nurses, friends, and family. If someone claims to see something at T1 and others corroborate that claim, then it's objective testimonial evidence, period.

Years of drug studies and brain surgery have demonstrated that you are your brain. There is no other alternative. — Philosophim

There is no other alternative, what a silly statement, and an arrogant one too. Many scientists dispute this. In any case, my argument stands.

I'll ask you one more time, what do you mean by complete brain death? — Sam26

Here is a scientific article on the matter Sam26. https://www.mdpi.com/2076-0787/5/2/18 I encourage you to read that.

This is a well documented case, here is one of many videos on this NDE.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WNbdUEqDB-k — Sam26

I know you're well meaning, but a 'for tv' story is not a factual analysis. Here's an analysis of why Pam Reynolds NDE does not note anything remarkable. https://digital.library.unt.edu/ark:/67531/metadc461684/m1/1/

First, what you're claiming is not an unerring fact. Just because someone claims something is factual doesn't make it so. — Sam26

Correct. But we have all the proof we need. If I say, "Its a fact unicorn's don't exist," you're not going to question me on it right? There is no measurement of anything that leaves the brain or body after death. If you have brain damage, you will change. You are part of this universe, not separate from it. I get that your intelligence and sense of self-preservation make you want to give the proverbial middle finger to the rest of the universe, but you are not special. You are made up of the same stuff everything else is.

But we are not special. It is hubris to think we are. Check out some neuroscience. Check out psychotherapy. Get drunk for a while and see how much you change. There is nothing special about you beyond your physical make up.

Many thousands of NDE testimonials have been corroborated by doctors, nurses, friends, and family. If someone claims to see something at T1 and others corroborate that claim, then it's objective testimonial evidence, period. — Sam26

I am not disputing that people have these experiences. But I am disputing that they are any evidence in any serious discussion of life after death. All the facts are on my side, while all you have are inductive arguments, and a strong desire for it to be true.

There is no other alternative, what a silly statement, and an arrogant one too. Many scientists dispute this — Sam26

Its not arrogant, its a fact. If its arrogant, give me a counter fact. To not give me a counter fact is a person who is angry at a point, but nothing else. I don't want you to be angry, hopeful, passionate, or anything emotional. I want you to look at the facts. Don't tell me, "Many scientists," show me a scientist who has a peer reviewed study that cites a factual argument for life after death. There are none. Because there is no life after death. It is purely an emotional desire people want to believe in.

When I speak of death, I mean clinical death, i.e., no measurable brain activity, no heartbeat, and no breathing. — Sam26

You make too much of the definition. People who have had NDEs have not experienced brain decomposition (clearly a point of no return), and the absence of measurable brain activity does not imply there is NO brain activity.

Because there is no life after death. It is purely an emotional desire people want to believe in. — Philosophim

Yes, like out of body experiences, spiritual enlightenment/"salvation", ghost and alien summoning/sightings; all of which have similarly consistent reports.

How can I know that the experience that I'm having (or remember having) is a near death experience?
— jkop

If you had an NDE it wouldn't be something that easily forgotten. Moreover, you would know based on what others have reported and comparing your experience with theirs.

Just listen to this NDE, it may answer your questions.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5ZfaPCwjguk
— Sam26

It's reasonable to believe that her report is sincere. Most reports of NDEs probably are. Nevertheless, there is ambiguity in how perceptual verbs such as 'experience' are used

In one sense 'experience' means the conscious state that arises from brain activity. In another sense it means the objects and states of affairs that the conscious state is about.

By using these two senses ambiguously you can produce intriguingly absurd results. For example, experiences without brain activity, or a world where all objects and states of affairs are made of brain activity. Fallacies of ambiguity.

Well argued.

:100:

from p.28 of this thread ...

Resuscitation is not resurrection. "NDE" presupposes resurrection and yet none of the claimants, in fact, have been resurrected. — 180 Proof

I'll ask you one more time, what do you mean by complete brain death? I never use any such terms. When I speak of death, I mean clinical death, i.e., no measurable brain activity, no heartbeat, and no breathing. Are you disputing that there are any NDEs that occur when a person is pronounced clinically dead? If you want an e.g. of someone who had an NDE when there was no measurable brain activity then I would give the example of Pam's NDE out of Atlanta, GA

-

There are two issues with this. First, what's in bold is key. It's not the same as no brain activity at all. Different types of medical machines detect brain activity differently. A machine that is designed to specifically concentrate on brain activity is more accurate than one that just monitor the life status of a patient. "Clinical death" is actually misleading because it's not the same as being dead. Death is a process. Whereas dead is a state. It's more accurate to describe it using the word, "dying."

The second one is important. When it comes to "clinical death," there are two types, involuntary and voluntary. When it comes to the case of Pam, she fell under voluntary clinical death. This occurs during sleep brain surgery. This means that instead of the continuously deteriorating brain activity, it's a control one, in that it's deteriorating in pulses. Machines are technically preventing the brain becoming dead by constantly sending electrical pulses to the brain.

Also, the video that you linked is poor source for accessing her case. It's a documentary video and not an examination video. Put aside the notion that it's a video about NDE, it's a demonstration of an explanation for the layman, not a scientific explanation. The narrator presents a simple explanation of what is going on. This goes for the medical representative as well. An example is when the narrator state that the her brain was drained of fluid. What's not mentioned is that during a surgery, the brain is not entirely drained of its fluids. What's actually going on is that the fluid is slowly but constantly being drained. This is to prevent there being any fluidic pressure so not to interfere with what the surgeon is doing. Once the surgeon is done, the process is reversed. Fluid is slowly added back into the brain along with electrical pulses to bring the brain activity back to normal condition.

--‐‐------

Here's a scientific explanation for her case.

- According to the psychologist Chris French:

Woerlee, an anesthesiologist with many years of clinical experience, has considered this case in detail and remains unconvinced of the need for a paranormal explanation... [He] draws attention to the fact that Reynolds could only give a report of her experience some time after she recovered from the anesthetic as she was still intubated when she regained consciousness. This would provide some opportunity for her to associate and elaborate upon the sensations she had experienced during the operation with her existing knowledge and expectations. The fact that she described the small pneumatic saw used in the operation also does not impress Woerlee. As he points out, the saw sounds like and, to some extent, looks like the pneumatic drills used by dentists.[2] -

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pam_Reynolds_case

Because there is no life after death — Philosophim

Maybe. Does this entail or imply that there is nothing after death? Consciousness can and does transcend the limits of individual physical entities. You yourself are an aggregate of individual entities (cells) whose mutual "communication" is integral to what you experience as consciousness. But your cells constantly die. So if you cannot reductively explain consciousness with reference to the finite lifespan of individual entities (i.e. consciousness can transcend the destruction of finite living things) then you cannot conclusively eliminate it based on the termination of a finite life-form either.