Joshs
If there are affinities with pragmatism or with later analytic work on normativity and practice, I’m happy to acknowledge them. But I’m not trying to force Wittgenstein into Hegelian inferentialism. I’m using later Wittgenstein to keep JTB anchored in how our practices actually operate, and to keep the discussion aimed at epistemic certainty, not Cartesian absolute certainty. — Sam26
Sam26
If there are affinities with pragmatism or with later analytic work on normativity and practice, I’m happy to acknowledge them. But I’m not trying to force Wittgenstein into Hegelian inferentialism. I’m using later Wittgenstein to keep JTB anchored in how our practices actually operate, and to keep the discussion aimed at epistemic certainty, not Cartesian absolute certainty.
— Sam26
Post-Sellarsianism is defined by where one locates normativity, which seems to be the same site you situate it, in public justificatory standing governed by mistake-conditions, defeaters, and correction. Like the post-Sellarsians, you treat JTB as a legitimate starting grammar, whereas Wittgenstein aims to dissolve this starting point. Wittgenstein uses hinges to stop explanation, not to underwrite it. Once hinges are recruited to keep JTB “anchored,” they have been absorbed into a normative architecture. That architecture is Sellarsian in spirit even if it is anti-foundational in tone. — Joshs
Sam26
Sam26
J
. . . to argue that God isn’t merely one more claim inside the system, but part of what makes the system possible. My point is: that’s a coherent aspiration, but it’s also a very high bar. To succeed, the theologian would have to show that the denial of God undermines the grammar of justification itself, not just that God is a good explanation, or a satisfying metaphysical picture. And until that bar is met, “God exists” looks less like a hinge and more like a substantive claim that remains open to epistemic assessment, including defeaters, alternatives, and the usual standards of practice. — Sam26
the desire to make God hinge-certain is structurally parallel to the hinge idea, — Sam26
Sam26
Sam26
Sam26
J
And that’s why I keep separating two things, viz., the ontological project asks what must exist for anything to exist. The hinge project asks what must stand fast for our practices of doubt, evidence, error, and correction to be intelligible. Those projects can converge, but they don’t automatically converge, and the burden is on the theologian to show that they do. — Sam26
On “must they be wrong” and “what’s the persuasion for ‘you should stop at X’”: I don’t think the hinge idea is a recommendation about where one ought to stop, as if Wittgenstein is issuing a rule. It’s a description of where our justificatory practices actually do stop, where reasons run out and the background stands fast. You can refuse to stop, but at some point the demands cease to be ordinary justificatory demands and become a different kind of philosophical ambition, for example a metaphysical demand for an ultimate ground. That ambition can be coherent, but it’s no longer the same as ordinary epistemic judgements. — Sam26
Sam26
J
Hinges aren’t merely linguistic habits or conversational conveniences. They are bedrock commitments by which we take ourselves to be in contact with reality. They function as conditions of possibility for inquiry, but precisely because of that they carry ontological commitments: — Sam26
Antony Nickles
Gettier cases lose much of their force because many depend on a mismatch between seeming justified and having justificatory standing. — Sam26
Where would you draw the boundary between justification and understanding, if you think there is one. — Sam26
Sam26
No, the hinges are neither habitual nor pragmatic/convenient. But . . . "By which we take ourselves to be in contact" -- that's the rub. What is the practice being described which can result in contact with reality, aka, that which ontology studies? This question isn't limited to Witt-related thought, of course, but nor do the Wittgensteinian moves render it unproblematic.
Another way of saying it: To carry ontological commitments -- which I agree that hinges do -- is not to be part of what ontology studies or describes. There remains the question of the status of our epistemic practices as they relate to what we're pleased to call "reality." That is an Ur-metaphysical question, so possibly out of bounds for the Witt line of thought? — J
Sam26
Sam26
Sam26
J
On the fundamental metaphysical question about the status of our practices in relation to reality: yes, that question remains. Wittgenstein doesn’t abolish it. What his line of thought does is block a certain way of posing it, the way that tries to demand a justification for the whole framework while still using the framework’s notions of justification, evidence, and correction. — Sam26
I’m not trying to smuggle in a practice that gives us access to Being. I mean something more minimal, i.e., that our ordinary epistemic practices already operate with a contrast between getting it right and getting it wrong, between correction and mistake, between appearance and reality. — Sam26
I don't want to make the thread all about hinges, but I also don't want to not take questions about hinges. — Sam26
If I say I know a tune that is playing, I may be asked to give the title of the song (right/wrong), or to hum the rest of it. — Antony Nickles
So when Witt indicates a stopping point, the point isn’t “here is where I recommend you stop.” It’s “past this point your demands no longer operate as epistemic demands.” — Sam26
The disagreement isn’t whether practices have hinges, they do. The disagreement is where to locate them, how to describe them (I think there's a hierarchy of hinges), and whether someone’s philosophical demand has genuinely left the space of epistemic assessment or is still a legitimate request for further justification within it. — Sam26
“this is where we stop” isn’t a gesture, it’s a disciplined account of how our epistemic life actually works. — Sam26
sime
Antony Nickles
I mean justificatory standing, the sort of standing a belief has when it is supported by the standards that govern a practice, standards for what counts as evidence, what counts as error, and what counts as correction. — Sam26
understanding is competence with mistake-conditions. It’s being able to say what would count against the claim, what would defeat it, and what would correct it. — Sam26
justification is a normative standing within a practice — Sam26
Antony Nickles
understanding is the competence by which a person can genuinely participate in [the practice of justification], not merely mimic its conclusions. — Sam26
belief can look justified from the outside, and even to the person themselves, but the justificatory standing is fragile, because the person does not reliably track the mistake-conditions that the practice treats as decisive. — Sam26
Understanding is what makes the support more than a recitation, it is the ability to locate the claim within the space of reasons, objections, defeaters, and revisions that the practice recognizes. That is not infallibility, and it is not an impossible demand. It is simply the difference between having a standing and merely borrowing one. — Sam26
Can you think of a counterexample, a case where someone lacks this competence but still seems to have genuine justificatory standing. — Sam26
Antony Nickles
No False Grounds (NFG). A belief cannot have genuine justificatory standing if the support it depends on is false, or if it is being carried by a false presupposition that is doing the real work. The point is simple: if the ground is false, whatever looks like support is a counterfeit support. — Sam26
Defeater Screening. Even when the grounds look good, justificatory standing is undermined when there are live defeaters that have not been faced. — Sam26
Sam26
Antony Nickles
Pure logic (boundary setting only). There are limits that are not empirical discoveries but logical constraints, what is possible, what is coherent, what follows from definitions, what collapses into contradiction. This route does not supply new facts about the world. It sets boundaries, clarifies entailments, and exposes category mistakes. — Sam26
Do you think “linguistic training” deserves to be a distinct route, or is it better treated as part of the background of the other routes. — Sam26
Sam26
Of course there is formal logic, which has it uses, but I would think more important is the internal logic of a practice, some of which are particular versions of ones you mention. As I said above, there are criteria for what we consider to be an apology, a sufficient one to categorize it as an apology. There are constraints for correctness, boundaries for appropriateness. The implications of certain acts within a practice have specific implications. All this is to say that formal logic is but one practice, no better, more important, or more necessary/powerful than others. Of course, its independence and certainty make it more desirable. — Antony Nickles
Sam26
Sam26
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