What you are describing sounds like a social contract*1, in which what we both see is real, and what we individually imagine is ideal or unreal (or woo woo). Some of us prefer one or the other, or both Reality & Ideality. For Scientists & Materialists, seeing is believing. But for Philosophers & Spiritualists, imagining may be believable too. Yet, as various philosophers & scientists have noted : seeing is always interpreting*2. :smile:But what if what I am seeing is not what is really there, but merely a representation, just like a portrait does not contain the real person? What if seeing is not believing—but merely interpreting? — Kurt
"What is real?" is a metaphysical question. It doesn't have a correct answer. Is the quantum wave function real? Of course it is. Of course it isn't. It all depends on where we stand, what perspective we take and that depends on the problem we are trying to solve. — T Clark
What is matter? Matter is something that has the characteristic of mass. When you apply a force to something with mass, it accelerates. That's how you can tell. — T Clark
What you are describing sounds like a social contract*1, in which what we both see is real, and what we individually imagine is ideal or unreal — Gnomon
Idle question(s). 'Your context' does not provide any grounds to doubt "what is really there" and, in such a context, you're "seeing" is indubitable (pace Zhuangzi ... Descartes ... Kant ...) so that it makes most sense for (sober, awake, pragmatic) you to act accordingly.what if what I am seeing is not what is really there, ...? — Kurt
I agree that there is a myriad of perspectives that we can take. I want to examine what these perspectives tell us not only about reality, but also about what false beliefs we have adopted in order to make sense of the world. I want to investigate how much bagage we can shed, before we get lost or loose ourselves. And whatever the case might be, so far it looks like most of what we believe is simply a fairy tale. — Kurt
Now this is a problem, disguised as a party trick. When we talk about matter, we talk about something substancial. Yet, what you do here is defining matter as being completely described by the characteristic of mass. A characteristic is just a number with some corelations to other numbers (characteristics). So the whole concept of substancialtity gets lost in the process. — Kurt
The exterior reality has to be itself an expression of something even more fundamental. As far as I can understand, that something is the principle of the laws of nature and the natural order. — Kurt
There is no such thing as truth. The best we can do is come to an agreement and call that "the truth". In actuality it's more like a placeholder, like a suspended version of truth. — Kurt
And now we’ve stumbled upon one of the central confusions of communication: we use words like “real,” “physical,” and “objective,” without having any rock-solid idea what they refer to. They work well enough for practical purposes—don’t touch the stove, it’s matter and it’s hot. But when we slow things down and look closely, the bedrock starts to look like smoke. There is no stable ground to land on. The closer we try to get to the thing itself, the more it unravels into interpretation, probability, model, rule. — Kurt
This fragile, approximate nature of language shapes the way we build our understanding of reality. Our use of language enables us to construct what might be called a pragmatic fantasy—a model of reality that works well enough to build societies, conduct science, and write books like this one. — Kurt
And when I talk to you about matter, I don’t feel the need to explain what I mean. The word feels obvious. You know what matter is. You learned it in school. You’re made of it. You don’t need to look it up. You’ve seen pictures in science books, maybe even watched documentaries about how it's all just atoms and fields and particles buzzing about with some weird “emptiness” in between. Most of us, even those with only a vague interest in science, have picked up a mental image of matter—and this image feels good enough. — Kurt
Why not start with the premise that the world is pretty much just as it seems to be, and look for evidence to the contrary? — Banno
Brinn of the Haruchai said:The real question is: how serious am I willing to be in answering that? Because the answers might shatter everything I believe to be true. Every conviction I hold might be up for some serious maintenance. — Kurt
No. As I’ve said previously in this thread, it’s useful to be able to know the difference between a rock and the pain you feel when you drop it on your toe. — T Clark
Overwhelmingly, the world appears to do much as advertised. — Banno
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