I think we create morals, as a society, over time. Cause and effect plays a role in that these morals get refined and adjusted by a process of trial and error when we interact with the world. But it's not like science that we just go observing the world and find out what the causes and effects are. There's also a 'subjective' valuing part to it and so there's not only one correct true answer that follows from facts about the world.

So separate societies develop different moralities because of historical contingencies, and these then get passed on to the next generations. To some extend there's an arbitrary element to them that cannot be fully justified rationally or empirically, but has to be taken on faith. Since we live in groups it is also important that there is some coherence to the morals being pursued in the same group. Myths function to justify and anchor those moralities in coherent and comprehensive stories, because that is the way we pass them on and remember them best.

If we come to question those mythical foundations, like say via the scientific method, you eventually also end up losing the justification and anchor for that particular morality. And then people start questioning them and develop their own particular diverging views on it... and you eventually end up with the anarchy or chaos I was referring to (nihilism or Durkheim would call it anomie).

That is when people instinctively start asking for some kind of unifying power to remedy the situation, which can be abused by fascists and the like. — ChatteringMonkey

The stories "Little Red Hen", "The Fox and Grapes", "The Little Engine that Could" are all moral stories. We would read them to our children and ask, "What is the moral of that story?" The expected answer is a matter of cause and effect. No one helped the Little Red Hen so she didn't share her bread. The fox gave up on getting the grapes and the message is don't give up. The Little Engine that could did not give up.

This is important because nature is the ruler! If we do not do the right thing, things go bad. This understanding is essential to democracy and the Greek passion for getting things right. There is no violating the laws of nature and not being punished because your prayers to God worked and God decised to let you get away with doing things wrong. In short, we better be sure about the carbon dioxide in the air because God isn't going to save our sorry asses if we screw things up.

Before science people knew if they did the wrong things, things would go bad. Moral? do it right.

I agree with what you said about morality but I do not believe the end result will always be anarchy.

There is a notion called "logos" coming out of Athens. Logos is the controlling force of the universe made manifest in speech. Moral is to know the universal laws and have good manners. Later, Cicero, who studied in Athens, concluded that it is our nature to do the right thing when we know what that is. At the beginning of the Renaissance, Italians went with the notion that educated people can reach a consensus about morals, and they can govern themselves. Workers were educated for good citizenship and to be self-governing. This education is the trivium.

The Trivium - The Regina Academies
The Trivium is a foundational model in classical education, comprising three stages of learning: Grammar, Logic (also known as Dialectic), and Rhetoric. It's often seen as a framework for cultivating critical thinking, effective communication, and a broad understanding of the world.

AI

Poetry, history, and literature teach how to have the good life.

That was the model for education in the US until 1958 when the the National Defense Education Act was [passed for national defense reasons. Those who made that decision had a very limited idea of what was and what was needed. They lacked wisdom! We are now what we defended our democracy against. Anarchy being very much a part of the problem because education for technology is not education for life, liberty, and justice.

Only when the young are prepared for democracy is democracy protected. We stopped doing that in 1958 and put fascism in full control. I need to get to @BC with this explanation of fascicm.

I don’t mean to bum you or anyone else out by all this – and I’m sure some will find the just stated an all too laughable fantasy or, else, see no problems with authoritarian governance to begin with. It’s just that, while I view some humanitarian causes lost in the relative short-term, in the long-term I yet find that there is yet much to struggle for. This, at least, for those who care about future generations of children and the like. — javra

Schools were used to mobilize our nation for the two World Wars. Understanding the importance of this is difficult today because we are judging the world as it is now. Especially when we entered WWI, we were very low-tech. Women knitted socks and scarves for military men. Schools taught women to substitute cornmeal for flour so we could send our wheat overseas and feed the allies. Even at the end of WWII, people came home to outhouses and wood stoves.

My copy of the 1917 National Education Association Conference is an amazing piece of history explaining everything the schools did to raise patriotism and support the war effort. Back in the day, we supported the wars by buying war bonds. Children used their lunch money to buy war bonds and schools sold them. Our main defense was patriotic citizens who understood why democracy must be defended, not military technology. Germany was more technologically prepared for war than the US, before the 1958 National Defense Education Act gave us rapidly increasing military technology.

The point I'd like to make is the difference education can make. Our schools were the best organization we had for mobilizing us for war. At the start of WWI we didn't even have a market for radios. Newspapers were the only news source. People living on farms, as most people did, were not well informed when working was more important than going to college. We live in a changed world, but back in the day, mobilizing a nation the size of the US was a huge feat. Knowing what we did then leads me to believe we could do it again if we understood the importance of education to democracy. If we want to make our nation great again, we need to begin with out schools.

BTW, not all the Germans believed the lies; not all the Soviet citizens believed the lies; not all Americans believe the lies. — BC

I think we can see what Trump is doing with the power of fear. You know like Niccolo Machiavelli. Trump is building on fear. Could I be the next to lose my job? Can the college survive the loss of federal help? Why is it that anything said against what Israel has done to Palestine is illegal, antisemitic?
How many immigrants feel safe enough to argue against what is happening? How about a Palestinian who hears over and over again about Israel's right to defend itself and not a peep about Palestine's right to self-defense?

You know what, it doesn't matter if we see the lies, when we do not dare call out the liar. If you can not get a good job without joining the Nasi party, you keep your mouth shut and do what you have to do to pay your bills.

And while this hateful thing is going on, TV preachers continue to support Trump and tell us he is supported by God. We are dealing with a myth just as the Germans were dealing with a myth. The Bible is not a book for democracy.

Hitler and the Nazi Party led the process of rearmament and reorganization of German society with the intent of 'purifying' German society, acquiring lebensraum, and getting even with the Allies. The German Plan wasn't a state secret. The details were laid out in domestic propaganda. — BC

That is what I am seeing today.

I want to talk about the essential change in bureaucracy and the relationship with education and culture.

In our past, the US had great leaders like Washington and Lincoln, and Hamilton. At this time in history, everyone did his/her job as best as s/he could. There is a problem with this, when someone dies, it takes months for everyone to adjust to the new person. The Prussians avoided that problem by controlling everything with policy. Every job was closely defined and everyone could die but the bureaucracy never dies. It is no longer strong and creative human beings running the show, but the policy that defines what the job is and how it will be done. Everyone becomes replaceable.

That change in bureaucracy becomes a change in education because we are no longer preparing our Washington, Lincoln or Hamilton to step up and lead. With merit hiring, we want someone who can do the job as well as the person before. Instead of education for life and leadership, it is education for technological skills. Gone are the days when everyone was prepared for civic and industrial leadership. Like the Borg, we want someone we can just plug in and do the job. No personal judgment needed, just read the policy.

Up front, Stanley has proved himself one of the least-respectable thinkers of hte last 20 years with his constant tirades against reality over the last while - mainly on Twitter, where his a misogynistic dickhead who cannot, if his life depended on it, shut up and listen to a woman.

That said, I think you're right lmao. If everyone know the 'truth' as such, about Trump, it would far, far, far harder to take him seriously and thus vote for him.

His support of Israel equals Hitler. — Athena

This is utterly insane though, sorry.

"His support of Israel equals Hitler.
— Athena

This is utterly insane though, sorry. — AmadeusD

Hmm, the title of this thread is Fascism and Justice. That makes your argument delicious.

Wikipedia say this:

Fascism prioritizes the nation over the individual, who exists to serve the nation." and as "an ultranationalist, authoritarian political philosophy. It combines elements of nationalism, militarism, economic self-sufficiency, and totalitarianism.

What is the best way to unite us against them?

Decades ago, the sociologist Georg Simmel argued that nothing unites a nation, or any group of people for that matter, quite like having a common enemy. Recent research by Mark Landau (professor of psychology, University of Kansas), though not testing unity of groups, does indicate that having enemies provides some psychological benefits. https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/the-big-questions/201110/enemies-enhance-the-meaning-of-life

Trump's position on Palestian makes these people the enemy as surely as Hitler's position on Jews made them the enemy. He is playing into Bush's war on evil and the power and glory of the Christian US. What is being done to the Palestinians is totally unacceptable, but Trump has made anyone who speaks against what Iseal is doing, the enemy. But the enemy is not just the Palestinians and those who defend them, but everyone who was not born in the US and whose parents were not born in the US. The enemy is everyone who is not one of us and the left who have ruined our country. Everyone is out to ruin the US, and therefore, the Right must stand together and fight like hell.

Christians are thrilled with this strong leader just as the Nazi were thrilled with Hitler. Both the followers of Hitler and Trump believe they were treated badly and their country was being ruined, and now it is time to fight like hell to make America great again. And like good Hegel followers, it doesn't matter how much immediate changes are hurting individual citizens because they all should be willing to sacrifice for the glory of the nation.