https://www.pbs.org/video/exclusive-how-fascism-works-author-jason-stanley-plans-to-leave-the-us-eimxcb/

Here is an interview with Professor Jason Stanly. author of How Fascism Works.

Do you feel safe? Do you care about justice and freedom of speech? — Athena

Wanted to say thumbs up to the OP. To the first question, for now yes; issue though is about the soon-to-become-present future. And here I am very concerned. To the second question: yes.

Seems to me that those who don't feel safe will not speak up against authoritarianism and fascism because of this very concern or else fear. Whereas those who don't see any problems with authoritarianism and fascism - maybe due to believing these to work in their favor - will not have any reason to speak up against them.

Seems to me that those who don't feel safe will not speak up against authoritarianism and fascism because of this very concern or else fear. Whereas those who don't see any problems with authoritarianism and fascism - maybe due to believing these to work in their favor - will not have any reason to speak up against them. — javra

Thank you. Firing people for saying something that is not liked seems the most threatening thing that can happen to our democracy. It was how Hitler and the fascists gained unstopable control of the masses. Only those loyal to Hitler and fascism got jobs. People who were not in agreement with fascism and Hitler didn't dare speak of their opposing views. Jews didn't dare make it known they were Jews because they would lose everything, including their lives. ID cards were essential for any rights or privileges. AI says this; "During WWII, German membership in organizations like the Wehrmacht (military) and the SS (elite paramilitary organization) was essential for the Nazi regime's military and ideological goals, including rearmament, expansion, and the enforcement of racial policies." (how different is our present treatment of immigrants even when the have green cards, and people with different sexual notions than the label on their birth certificate?)

The problem was well documented in the book "the NAZI Officer's Wife; How One Jewish woman Survived the Holocaust by Edith Hahn Beer with Susan Dworkin.

When I was a child, my family talked about how this use of ID cards was what happened in evil Europe, as though such a thing would never happen in the US. Well, today we can be denied flights unless we have special ID's that provide far more information than successfully passing the driver's test. When the school told us to inspect our homes for fire hazards and report to the school, my parents became unglued! Germans reported their families and neighbors, not US citizens, but today not only are some states encouraging reporting people to authority, they encourage reporting their families and neighbors to authority and the state even pay the snitch. These are good Christians who forgot Jesus stood against reporting people to authority.

What is happening did not start with Trump, and we might look behind the curtain to see what is really going on and who is in control.

What is happening did not start with Trump, and we might look behind the curtain to see what is really going on and who is in control. — Athena

As far as my personal observations and perspectives go:

Anti-democratic sentiments have been simmering for quite some time in certain aspects of the US, in all sorts of ways. From not wanting to partake in civic duties (e.g., in jury duty) to an outright denouncement of democracy as a system of governance.

Many, maybe too many, people value authoritarian power. Deeming the populace (of which one might say they too belong to) to be idiots and blindly led sheep. That thereby need to be domineered.

Bad parenting – e.g., parents who laugh at teachers who tell them to restrain their children from cursing in school (to say the least) – tends to result in more selfish adolescents who put their own narrow and selfish interests before those of all others without much if any empathy for others, and with bullying on the rise, sometimes taking extreme forms. Which in turn leads to even more bad parenting.

Justice here is no longer that which is seen as applying to all equally (justice for all) but, instead, is that which empowers one’s own agendas so as to conquer all those that oppose your own will, this irrespective of the double standards involved.

The next generation of adults then hold these attitudes that were accumulated during their formative years, and then they vote, often this to empower authoritarian causes.

Then, there’s the vested interest of the authoritarian powers that be – political, economic, makes no significant difference – that the plebs at large are as uneducated and as fragmented as possible (no sense of community or solidarity among the plebs). Not only does this deprive commoners of any nobility of being but, more to the point, it facilitates greater capacity for authoritarian power-over and the financial wealth thereby accumulated – this, again, by the authoritarian powers that be. And all this is pivoted on an economy that is a global Ponzi scheme of sorts: a global economy that assumes infinite growth via infinite resources (by which new entrepreneurs supposedly have a chance to themselves get as big as the the biggest). And, as with all pyramid schemes, it will eventually go bust – but, here, on a global scale of economic devastation.

I wish I’d be – or at least find reason to be – more optimistic about the times we’re living in. I’m not. And I haven’t even started on the increasing calamities which will accompany increased global warming.

Unless a global cataclysm – e.g., a nuclear catastrophe, but there are other means of accomplishing the same cataclysm – reverts all of humanity back to segregated hunter-gather tribes of a dozen people or so – this being something which seems extremely unlikely, to not mention utterly undesirable, such as due to all the advances that will then be lost – in time there will indeed be a global governance. I’m thinking in terms of a few generations from now, more or less – but not in terms of millennia. Like the notion of not, it’s inevitable – this given our ever increasing interconnectedness via technology, economy, and the like. That stated, the concern here is that this global governance will not be a democratic republic, one that thereby aims for optimal justice for all citizens of the planet and seeks to give all citizens an equal voice in how they get to be governed. But that, instead, this global governance will turn out to be fully Orwellian, with pervasive fascistic structures and with injustices galore. And if such authoritarian power is ever acquired over all others on a global scale, it will be unimaginably hard to do away with.

As backdrop to this forethought, as things currently stand, globally, governments are turning increasingly authoritarian – this, obviously, on the backs of many who then unjustly suffer or else unjustly die.

I don’t mean to bum you or anyone else out by all this – and I’m sure some will find the just stated an all too laughable fantasy or, else, see no problems with authoritarian governance to begin with. It’s just that, while I view some humanitarian causes lost in the relative short-term, in the long-term I yet find that there is yet much to struggle for. This, at least, for those who care about future generations of children and the like.

How many Americans would turn against Trump if they knew the truth? The Germans were good people just like you and I but they believed the lies — Athena

Trump might not be as much an aberration as left/liberal types think. Trumpism has precedents. If you look over the history of the US, particularly since the Civil War (now some 160 years ago), there have been several highly illiberal, fascistic movements -- the KKK; anti-labor / union busting organizations; America First / isolationism; actual Nazis and Nazi sympathizers; white supremacists / white separatists; Christian nationalists, etc. They are a plague in the body politic.

Why, then, are we not a fascistic country? The government played a role in suppressing movements which threatened to rock the boat -- on the right and on the left both. Americans, by and large, have not bought into extreme ideology. (Perhaps extreme right wing ideology has had more success than extreme left wing ideology.).

BTW, not all the Germans believed the lies; not all the Soviet citizens believed the lies; not all Americans believe the lies. Trump's administration is not 100 days old, yet, so give resistance time to congeal. There were, over the weekend, large demonstrations against Trump across the country. Demonstrations, of course, generally do not deliver knock-out punches. Anti Vietnam demonstrations went on for quite a long time before the war ended.

More significant resistance will arise in the courts (or not; we'll see). Perhaps Republicans will lose control of Congress in two years (2027). Or not; we'll see. There is a good chance that Trumps tariff frenzy my trigger a recession. We the People don't like recessions, and we may be spurred to resolute and decisive action. Or not; we'll see.

In the meantime we have imbeciles in high office, which is a disaster in itself.

As far as my personal observations and perspectives go:

Anti-democratic sentiments have been simmering for quite some time in certain aspects of the US, in all sorts of ways. From not wanting to partake in civic duties (e.g., in jury duty) to an outright denouncement of democracy as a system of governance.

Many, maybe too many, people value authoritarian power. Deeming the populace (of which one might say they too belong to) to be idiots and blindly led sheep. That thereby need to be domineered.

Bad parenting – e.g., parents who laugh at teachers who tell them to restrain their children from cursing in school (to say the least) – tends to result in more selfish adolescents who put their own narrow and selfish interests before those of all others without much if any empathy for others, and with bullying on the rise, sometimes taking extreme forms. Which in turn leads to even more bad parenting.

Justice here is no longer that which is seen as applying to all equally (justice for all) but, instead, is that which empowers one’s own agendas so as to conquer all those that oppose your own will, this irrespective of the double standards involved.

The next generation of adults then hold these attitudes that were accumulated during their formative years, and then they vote, often this to empower authoritarian causes.

Then, there’s the vested interest of the authoritarian powers that be – political, economic, makes no significant difference – that the plebs at large are as uneducated and as fragmented as possible (no sense of community or solidarity among the plebs). Not only does this deprive commoners of any nobility of being but, more to the point, it facilitates greater capacity for authoritarian power-over and the financial wealth thereby accumulated – this, again, by the authoritarian powers that be. And all this is pivoted on an economy that is a global Ponzi scheme of sorts: a global economy that assumes infinite growth via infinite resources (by which new entrepreneurs supposedly have a chance to themselves get as big as the the biggest). And, as with all pyramid schemes, it will eventually go bust – but, here, on a global scale of economic devastation.

I wish I’d be – or at least find reason to be – more optimistic about the times we’re living in. I’m not. And I haven’t even started on the increasing calamities which will accompany increased global warming.

Unless a global cataclysm – e.g., a nuclear catastrophe, but there are other means of accomplishing the same cataclysm – reverts all of humanity back to segregated hunter-gather tribes of a dozen people or so – this being something which seems extremely unlikely, to not mention utterly undesirable, such as due to all the advances that will then be lost – in time there will indeed be a global governance. I’m thinking in terms of a few generations from now, more or less – but not in terms of millennia. Like the notion of not, it’s inevitable – this given our ever increasing interconnectedness via technology, economy, and the like. That stated, the concern here is that this global governance will not be a democratic republic, one that thereby aims for optimal justice for all citizens of the planet and seeks to give all citizens an equal voice in how they get to be governed. But that, instead, this global governance will turn out to be fully Orwellian, with pervasive fascistic structures and with injustices galore. And if such authoritarian power is ever acquired over all others on a global scale, it will be unimaginably hard to do away with.

As backdrop to this forethought, as things currently stand, globally, governments are turning increasingly authoritarian – this, obviously, on the backs of many who then unjustly suffer or else unjustly die.

I don’t mean to bum you or anyone else out by all this – and I’m sure some will find the just stated an all too laughable fantasy or, else, see no problems with authoritarian governance to begin with. It’s just that, while I view some humanitarian causes lost in the relative short-term, in the long-term I yet find that there is yet much to struggle for. This, at least, for those who care about future generations of children and the like. — javra

Each point you make excites me more.

[quote[1. Anti-democratic sentiments have been simmering for quite some time in certain aspects of the US, in all sorts of ways. From not wanting to partake in civic duties (e.g., in jury duty) to an outright denouncement of democracy as a system of governance.[/quote]

Clearly, those who do not want to take on civic responsibility do not understand that the meaning of democracy is government of the people, for the people, by the people. That is how Lincoln defined our democracy and quoted he was quoting Perciles of Athens, who died in 429 BC. Athens was at war with Sparta, and he made it clear why that war had to be fought by clarifying how the two city-states were different.

Which citizen should not have an understanding of what civic duty is and what it has to do with democracy, but today, how is anyone to know such things? I keep saying that only when democracy is defended in the classroom, is it defended but I might as well be explaining that to dolphins because there is not enough common knowledge of democracy for words to have meaning.

Many, maybe too many, people value authoritarian power.

What is the most important information of a nation? May I suggest it is religion? The Bible is about kings and slaves, and in 1958, the US replaced its domestic education with education for a technological society with unknown values, and it left moral training to the Church. What part of the Bible prepares people for democracy? There are two ways to have social order. Culture or authority over the people. Which choice does the Bible promote? We stopped passing on the culture built on virtues and principles in 1958. That leaves only authority over the people.

Bad parenting – e.g., parents who laugh at teachers who tell them to restrain their children from cursing in school (to say the least) – tends to result in more selfish adolescents who put their own narrow and selfish interests before those of all others without much if any empathy for others, and with bullying on the rise, sometimes taking extreme forms. Which in turn leads to even more bad parenting.

The 1917 National Education Association Conference was about mobilizing the US for the First World War. At that conference, the main issue was patriotism. How do we make our young patriotic citizens understand why democracy must be defended? Back in the day, education beyond learning to read and write and do math was not part of the schools' responsibility. There were no IQ tests so schools could identify those best suited for higher education, and all education was not about preparing the young for college. However, EDUATION WAS VERY MUCH ABOUT LIFE LONG LEARNING BECAUSE A GOOD CITINEN IS A WELL INFORMED CITIZEN.

The primary reason for free public schools was to teach the young to be good citizens, and it was known that immigrant parents and rural parents would learn good citizenship from their children. The primary defense of our nation was patriotic citizens who understood why our democracy must be defended. When it came to military technology, Germany was far ahead of the US, but our patriotic morale was high, and that did not change until the 1958 National Defense Education Act. The US adopted the German models of bureaucracy and education. We might do well to remember that Germany was a Christian Republic and our enemy in two world wars. Now, like Romans, we seem to be enjoying the destructive chaos of our nation and Christians are thrilled about being proven right about the end times. Ignorant of the rise and fall of civilizations throughout time.

This post is too long, so it has to stop here. I would very much appreciate reactions to what has been said by both of us.

Justice here is no longer that which is seen as applying to all equally (justice for all) but, instead, is that which empowers one’s own agendas so as to conquer all those that oppose your own will, this irrespective of the double standards involved. — javra

I had a great lesson in what logic has to do with justice. In the 70's my grandchildren were made wards of the state. At that time, the Department for Children's Services had a very bad opinion of parents whose sons and daughters got into trouble. With good intentions, the schools were promoting the notion that education for technology would make the young so much better than their poorly educated parents, and with the 1970 recession causing people to go bankrupt and to lose their homes, the young were very glad they would do better than their stupid parents. :lol: At the time, politicians were being blamed and many of them looked like crooks, but our young saw those crooks as the winners, not like their loser parents. It was just the climate at that time that set the stage for things that followed.

So the Children's Services is overwhelmed because meth, a drug known in Hitler's time, suddenly appeared on the streets and we made it law that running away from home was not a crime, so the police could not help us with our run away children. The children services people wanted to save our children who they thought were victims of bad parents. But they didn't have good homes for the children so they were putting them up for adoption with the same mentality as selling slaves. Talk about tyranny! Judgements were made by what was written in a file, and the case worker had 100% control of making the file. You can safely bet the case workers wrote those files to make themselves look good.

So a case worker uses what happened in November to justify her decision in the previous July. When I pointed out a decision made in November can not justify what happened in July I finally won an argument. I don't know, is my reasoning good? My point is what logic has to do with justice, but my memory comes with a lot of thinking errors that were very tyrannical until a bunch of us grandparents got the state to change policy and assure us of visitation rights. Today, extended family members are the first people who are contacted to take custody of children.

I wish I’d be – or at least find reason to be – more optimistic about the times we’re living in. I’m not. And I haven’t even started on the increasing calamities which will accompany increased global warming. — javra

While I write about some pretty awful things, always in my mind is the enlightenment and why we have democracy. Education for technology has given us the most powerful military force on earth and a lot of fun toys. I am really thankful for the internet that comes out of national defence research. And who can live without a microwave oven? :scream: I also live with a firm belief that education for democracy and using the democratic model for industry would make our democracy very strong and correct the problems that destroying us right now. Those two things would give our young the closest us as close to heaven on earth that humans can get.

My worst fear is that I will die before enough people understand what I am saying to spread these ideas and give our young a chance of having a good future.

Trump might not be as much an aberration as left/liberal types think. Trumpism has precedents. If you look over the history of the US, particularly since the Civil War (now some 160 years ago), there have been several highly illiberal, fascistic movements -- the KKK; anti-labor / union busting organizations; America First / isolationism; actual Nazis and Nazi sympathizers; white supremacists / white separatists; Christian nationalists, etc. They are a plague in the body politic.

Why, then, are we not a fascistic country? The government played a role in suppressing movements which threatened to rock the boat -- on the right and on the left both. Americans, by and large, have not bought into extreme ideology. (Perhaps extreme right wing ideology has had more success than extreme left wing ideology.).

BTW, not all the Germans believed the lies; not all the Soviet citizens believed the lies; not all Americans believe the lies. Trump's administration is not 100 days old, yet, so give resistance time to congeal. There were, over the weekend, large demonstrations against Trump across the country. Demonstrations, of course, generally do not deliver knock-out punches. Anti Vietnam demonstrations went on for quite a long time before the war ended.

More significant resistance will arise in the courts (or not; we'll see). Perhaps Republicans will lose control of Congress in two years (2027). Or not; we'll see. There is a good chance that Trumps tariff frenzy my trigger a recession. We the People don't like recessions, and we may be spurred to resolute and decisive action. Or not; we'll see.

In the meantime we have imbeciles in high office, which is a disaster in itself. — BC

The US adopted the German model of bureaucracy and the German model of education for technology, and we can not have an intelligent discussion about the social, economic, and political ramifications until at least two people understand this subject enough to talk about it.

Eisenhower warned us of the Military Industrial Complex and it appears everyone has ignored him. If they can not take Eisenhower seriously who is going to care about what I am saying? With the German models of bureaucracy and education, all our institutions are what we fought against. Trump is our Hitler because that is what the people are educated to follow.

A teacher warned us of the problem when we mobilized for the first world war. The bureaucracy crushes individual liberty and power and the education is about relying on the experts- something Eisenhower warned us about.

My worst fear is that I will die before enough people understand what I am saying to spread these ideas and give our young a chance of having a good future. — Athena

I very much get that. It’s why our voices matter. To become voiceless in a time of conflict – this when speaking up does not lead to dire perils with any significant degree of certainty (as it would in full-blown fascism) – is to in effect empower the extremist factions which see no value in democratic principles and the heuristics which bring these democratic principles into practice.

It’s not quite trust, nor belief, so I’ll say that I have faith in the younger generations at large. Their lives are just beginning to undergo the calamities of an ever-increasing climate change which they’ll have to live the entirety of their lives through. And while some of the old farts amongst us might adopt a “que sera sera” attitude toward the future, the young are for the most part experiencing a wakeup call. But they’re up against power-hording, authoritarian institutions (economic as much as political) which nowadays have surveillance capacities that the Nazis and the Stalinist Commies could have only dreamt of.

And this, again, is why voices – such as yours – matter.

Seems to me that those who don't feel safe will not speak up against authoritarianism and fascism because of this very concern or else fear. Whereas those who don't see any problems with authoritarianism and fascism - maybe due to believing these to work in their favor - will not have any reason to speak up against them. — javra

Once Aristotle gave the world an explanation of the earth as the center of the universe, no one seriously wanted to investigate if he was right or wrong. When Galileo started studying the heavens with a telescope, he began writing and talking about what he saw and that Aristotle was wrong, so the church stepped in to silence him because the Bible says we are the center of the universe. Then, some nut cases came up and started to ague we must question authority and what we think we know. :scream:
That started the Enlightenment and movement to democracy. That is liberal education. Education for technology prepares us to rely on authority. There is so much to know, we can not research everything for ourselves, so we must depend on those who have done the research.

Who understands fascism is government control of everything? or how about reading Tocqueville's 1830 Democracy in America and why Christianity leads to dependency on an all controlling government.
This is a matter of bureaucratic order. We have private property but the government regulates industry and sexual identification. :lol: Good luck with that.

I very much get that. It’s why our voices matter. To become voiceless in a time of conflict – this when speaking up does not lead to dire perils with any significant degree of certainty (as it would in full-blown fascism) – is to in effect empower the extremist factions which see no value in democratic principles and the heuristics which bring these democratic principles into practice.

It’s not quite trust, nor belief, so I’ll say that I have faith in the younger generations at large. Their lives are just beginning to undergo the calamities of an ever-increasing climate change which they’ll have to live the entirety of their lives through. And while some of the old farts amongst us might adopt a “que sera sera” attitude toward the future, the young are for the most part experiencing a wakeup call. But they’re up against power-hording, authoritarian institutions (economic as much as political) which nowadays have surveillance capacities that the Nazis and the Stalinist Commies could have only dreamt of.

And this, again, is why voices – such as yours – matter. — javra

You give me hope. At this moment in time, we have a president who could throw the entire world into a depression or a world war and ministers telling us this President is so strong because God has chosen him to lead our country at this time. A lot goes into this, including hundreds of years of believing it is God's will that White-Anglo-Saxon-Protestants are destined by God to rule the world. Gone is the wisdom of the past that restricted the power of this nation.

Religion and mythology being the same. "The Mythology of the West: America as the Last Empire" by Jan Willeum Schulte Nordholt is something of which we should all be aware. It lives in our cultural subconscious like a mold growing in the dark and contaminating the air. It goes with the notion of a God having favorite people and, consequently, hatred of those who are not one of us. Such as the Native Americans, Blacks, Jews, Muslims, and women in general. It is a hateful hierarchy of power and authority that should not be growing in our cultural subconscious.

It is basically the same mythology that brought Germany to fascism. This idea that a god has favorite people and this god blesses them even when they destroy the lives of others, exploit humans and the earth. When the British, Germans, and Americans have run on this mythology, the god is a war god who helps them win wars and never holds them accountable. Look at what Israel has done to the Palestinians with the belief a God favors them and our president trying to silence us so none dare speak of this horrible wrong.

Can we expose this myth and lead all to feel accountable? Can we talk about bureaucratic organization and the importance of a design chosen to limit the powers of government? During Roosevelt's administration, we were warned that the new powers of government created with the New Deal could come back to bite us if future presidents were not highly principled and wise. At the end of WWII we were warned of the wartime relationship of Industry and Government (and God).

If we do not become aware of what lurks in the dark, we live in the darkness, powerless to enjoy the new way of life we were given because of the enlightenment.

It has been a busy day and now I am exhausted, so I will invite you to do the explaining. What do you think fascism is? What is your understanding of a military industrial complex? What does culture have to do with manifesting or not manifesting democracy or authoritarianism? How was Germany different from the US when the US mobilized against it?

BTW, not all the Germans believed the lies; not all the Soviet citizens believed the lies; not all Americans believe the lies. Trump's administration is not 100 days old, yet, so give resistance time to congeal. There were, over the weekend, large demonstrations against Trump across the country. Demonstrations, of course, generally do not deliver knock-out punches. Anti Vietnam demonstrations went on for quite a long time before the war ended. — BC

The colleges, judges, and congress are not taking a strong stand against Trump, and in the meantime, anyone who has criticized his policies or what Israel has done to the Palestinians has lost their job. A woman working in Greenland who headed research, has been fired for saying the wrong thing to the vice president about Trump's ambition of taking over iceland. I am afraid the time to take Trump down was when he lost the election to Biden. I know not everyone approved of Hitler. So what. Their disapproval did not stop him, did it? Today many people working in Iceland have been fired for speaking against Trump's position, and those who might have been able to stop Trump are quivering in fear and finding that he is always right. Hail Trump.

What is your understanding of a military industrial complex? — Athena

A combine (mutually supporting) of the military and arms producers (corporations) which advocates for the specific interests of the military and corporations. The MIC is powerful because the number of agencies and employees is quite large and the financing is enormous. It is large enough to have a strong influence (able to steer, in some cases) national policy. It's a bad thing.

What does culture have to do with manifesting or not manifesting democracy or authoritarianism? — Athena

The culture is the all-encompassing ground from which politics arises -- anything between democracy and authoritarianism. The culture of France is quite different than the culture of Russia, for instance. Cultures exist over time, and the history of France and Russia are quite different as well. Culture is not concrete--it's not stiff, unyielding, and capable of supporting any amount of weight; it's more malleable, like a metal--with sufficient force it will bend.

How was Germany different from the US when the US mobilized against it? — Athena

My understanding is that Germany transitioned from a scattered batch of small statelets to a unified nation under Bismarck (a long story made crudely short). Germany played a large role in WWI, and lost; (Everyone 'lost' in that war, but the Central Powers were defeated.). The Allied Powers imposed a heavy penalties on Germany which were intended to keep Germany weak. Germany, beaten, bitter, and resentful ignored the penalties and rearmed -- in the process stimulating its economy.

Hitler and the Nazi Party led the process of rearmament and reorganization of German society with the intent of 'purifying' German society, acquiring lebensraum, and getting even with the Allies. The German Plan wasn't a state secret. The details were laid out in domestic propaganda.

In order to control the country, the Nazis shut down the previously existing political parties, purged the police, universities, and government of opposition, and in general terrorized the population so that doubters kept their mouths shut and followed orders.

The United States had emerged victorious from its Civil War and WWI. It had acquired lots of lebensraum earlier and had access to rich resources on its own soil. It was buffered by 2 oceans. it was generally wealthy and had a vast industrial base. It wasn't a paradise, of course. There were losers in the American system, and winners. Most people were in-between. The US was a secure society which had found the means to control politics, education, business, government, and so on without having to resort to terror or brutality (most of the time, anyway).

The US didn't declare war on Germany for the sake of Europe or because we found Germany intolerable. WWII began in Europe in 1939 and much of Europe was under Nazi control before Pearl Harbor, 12/7/1941.

What do you think fascism is? — Athena

The term "fascism" is a bit slippery, but in general: it is authoritarian; it is nationalistic in the extreme; it tends to be masculine--not in the sense of "men vs. women" but in its rhetoric and symbolism -- Fatherland, for instance, as opposed to Motherland; military vigor; etc. It's regressive and anal retentive in its drive for order and control. German fascism was intensely antisemitic, but the same was not true for Italian fascism. It subverts religious institutions for its own purposes.

On Hitler: It's worth noting that Hitler and the Nazis never won a national election. He didn't have power on the basis of popular assent. His power depended on duplicity, cruelty, terror, and threat of death--and the threat was not idle.

It's difficult to make sense of Donald Trump's behavior. Lopping off large hunks of the CDC or NOAA, for instance, simply do not make sense. He's either stupid, very corrupt, slightly insane, or all three.

I worked over an hour on a reply and deleted it. Now I have to run. There is nothing I rather do than work on a reply, but I must take care of mundane things like having food this week. :lol:

Everything might be easier to talk about if we limit it to the Prusian takeover of Germany and the change in the Prusian social status and military order. The US adopted the German models of bureaucracy and education for technology for military and industrial purpose. The US is what it defended its democracy against, and Trump is our Hitler. Your comments about what Hitler did to gain control are important. It is also important to understand the ground work for Trump being Hitler has been laid over a period of time and our ignorance of this makes us powerless. The citizens of the US are not the political and economic force they want to belief they are. Someone else is running this Military military-industrial complex.

Please focus more closely on the military-industrial complex. What changes did the US make to become a military-industrial complex with a president who acts like he can and should control most of the world?

I am running late, I hope to get back to you soon.

Please focus more closely on the military-industrial complex. — Athena

OK. But would you please say more about what was it that the US copied from German / Prussian bureaucracy. Or, how was German / Prussian bureaucracy different than, say, French bureaucracy?

I don't believe that the US had the basis for a Military Industrial Complex (MIC) before WWII. What we had was a very large industrial establishment largely focused on consumer production/. The Great Depression suppressed consumer demand, of course. Military production ended the 1930s depression for us, just as it ended an earlier depression for Germany.

The US prepared for WWII by marshaling the huge industrial resources of the country for military production. Ford, General Motors, Kaiser aluminum / ship building, aircraft manufacturers, Westinghouse, petroleum products, General Electric -- everybody, basically -- switched to a command economy in military goods.

At the end of the war production shifted back to consumer production. There was a substantial lag-time between the end of WWII and the beginning of the Cold War which again required more military production. I haven't read much about this, to tell the truth, but I am presuming that the pattern of WWII military production was the basis for the MIC. Companies that were in a position to do so went after the large military contracts. Tight budget control over military production seems to have been absent from the get go, so there were a lot of "cost plus" contracts -- a gravy train.

Military production was spread around across congressional districts, so otherwise small companies in podunk towns received bits and pieces of production, and big companies received big hunks. The people liked having the steady jobs, which made the otherwise burdensome appropriations and taxes acceptable. This distribution of contracts produced public buy-in for the high-cost products.

Consumer production steamed full speed ahead; there was the tremendous boom in housing production after WWII, and a boom in all the stuff that people hadn't had the money or availability to buy. And there was new stuff, like televisions.

So the MIC developed in a "guns and butter" economy.

A critical aspect of the MIC was the production of political consent for the Cold War, military production, atomic bombs, B52 fleets, missiles, and so on--all very expensive, dangerous stuff. The military itself, were one interest group, members of congress who wanted to get reëlected were a second interest group, military product producers and their investors / employees were a third interest group, and the fourth interest group was the public who were daily reminded of the Soviet / godless communist threat to peace, freedom, motherhood, and God Himself.

The press and the public relations industry wasn't itself an interest group here. They were the instrument by which the public was fed information, misinformation, lies, fantasies, and so on.

The MIC was successful in its effort to sell the military/industrial POV to the public and congress. That was the danger Eisenhower addressed, and many trillions of dollars later, here we are.

I will soon have to leave this alone to pursue life support activities. But one more post.

Trump is our Hitler — Athena

I loathe Donald Trump in so many ways that it is difficult to disagree here. I'll at least say, "Not yet."

Trump isn't in the same league as Adolph Hitler. Trump is more like the pissed off dictator of a banana republic. That doesn't make him harmless, of course. Banana republic dictators tend to be bad news.

As opposed to a grand scheme authored by Hitler, Trump has a box full of personal resentments. He's a film-flam man whose ambition has been both met (2016 and 2024) and frustrated (2020). He's been investigated, indicted, tried, and in some cases found guilty. His alleged financial genius has been shown to be frequently fraudulent. He has been aided and abetted by a Republic Party which has gone in for far-right wing lunacy. Knowing his risks, he prudently stacked the Courts with as many sycophants as he could.

Now he is in a position to get even. That is largely what he is doing, but not entirely.

His policies toward migrants isn't personal, I gather. It's just policy. His proposals to absorb Canada, Greenland, Panama, and Gaza are crazy (not that insanity would prevent an attempt). His concern about antisemitism on campus is a smokescreen. His tariff schemes are lunatic--they can't produce the intended results.

Whether Donald Turnip personally resents woke politics, or whether he is just personifying right-wing resentment towards liberals, I don't know. But his efforts to dissolve the Department of Education, slash research budgets, lay off droves of government employees, appoint hacks to high positions, and so on is Hitleresque, and will degrade the quality of civil service to the public for a long time.

Hitler's Nazi administration was sloppy in many ways. Trump's administration is likewise sloppy. There is little professional quality, precision, and validity to many of his actions. This will make his various executive orders more difficult to undo.

@Athena I just came across this book on Amazon:

The Complex: How the Military Invades Our Everyday Lives (The American Empire Project)
by Nick Turse (Author) Format: Kindle Edition

Part of: American Empire Project

A stunning breakdown of the modern military-industrial complex—an omnipresent, hidden-in-plain-sight system of systems that penetrates all our lives.

From iPods to Starbucks to Oakley sunglasses, national security expert Nick Turse explores the Pentagon’s little-noticed contacts (and contracts) with the products and companies that now form the fabric of America. He investigates the remarkable range of military incursions into the civilian world: the Pentagon’s collaborations with Hollywood filmmakers; its outlandish schemes to weaponize the wild kingdom; its joint ventures with Marvel Comics and Nascar, and he spotlights the disturbing way in which the military, desperate for fresh recruits, has tapped into the online world by “friending” young people on social networks.

A striking vision of a brave new world of remote-controlled rats and super-soldiers who need no sleep, The Complex will change our understanding of the militarization of America. We are a long way from Eisenhower’s military-industrial complex: this is the essential book for understanding its twenty-first-century progeny.

$10 on Kindle

So Hitler had death camps and he invaded almost the entirety of Europe, putting the overall death toll to well over 50 million people. That's one subtle difference between him and Trump.

Trump is the king the left tried to shoot but missed. So now he's just a guy who wants to destroy all vestiges of liberalism. DEI, support for Palestine, climate change regulation, trans rights, government employment opportunities, open borders, elite universities, you name it.

What do you think fascism is? — Athena

It's an attempt at overcoming a culture that has become nihilistic by creating a new shared nationalistic myth.

Western culture has become nihilistic because it is based on Christianity that has within it the seeds of nihilism because of its life-denying values and emphasis on Truth as a value.

Over time a culture that has Truth as one of its core values eats its own foundational myths, and thus eventually also devaluates Truth as a value that was justified by that myth... the highest values devaluate themselves.

First the metaphysical/mythological basis of morality dissolves over time.

Then the morality based on that foundation erodes away.

Then the belief in the societal and legal structures based on that shared understanding of morality wanes.

Then you get dis-unity, splintering, corruption, power-struggles... chaos.

Then you get fascism trying to rectify that by imposing a new kind of order onto a choatic society.

Fascists seek to return greatness via the invigorating effects of warfare.

OK. But would you please say more about what was it that the US copied from German / Prussian bureaucracy. Or, how was German / Prussian bureaucracy different than, say, French bureaucracy? — BC

I could quote from my books to answer your question, but will try to sumerize the important points.

Think military order. The Germans were organized by their social status, and social status was about family. Was a person from a family with a high or low status? High-status people were given leadership roles, and the peasant was not. Ponder this. We are talking about our identity here and what is expected of us and who has opportunity in life and who does not. We are also talking about social order and what that has to do with military order.

Prusia lived for military power as we live for God. While the rest of Germany was kind of your hippie folk, being creative and enjoying socializing. After the 30 Years' War, the Germans wanted nothing to do with war, or the struggle of uniting everyone, but they were threatened by their neighbors, so they turned to Prussia to unite and protect Germany.

Right after the end of WWII, Eisenhower wrote a letter to Germany thanking them for their contribution to democracy. Why would he do that? Because the Prussians changed the military order and that changed social order. Family order is social order, and the past very much economic order. This ordering shapes our identities and positions and opportunities. The Prussians threw out family order and ordered everyone based on merit. The top generals set military policy and goals, but now anyone could become a general. Get it?

The US adopted the German model of education because it opens opportunity to everyone. No longer do you get the job on the train because your Dad works for the railroad. Now you have to have the right education and experience to get the job and to advance. England rejected this education that leads to equality because it wanted to protect its class society. I have seen arguments for why we should have taken Germany's side in the first world war. Democracy and the social order a monarchy carry a tension because of conflicts of interest. :fire: Christianity makes this more complex. Another tension between believers and science.

I feel awful saying so much without giving you a turn but this is all rather complex. We had education for citizenship and good moral judgment. Eisenhower asked Congress to pass the 1958 National Defense Education Act, which was supposed to last 4 years but totally replaced our domestic education. It is not the gay folk who have weakened the family. Not that long ago we had industries based on family order and community. I don't know if we will have any industry based on family order today. We have autocracy industry and that is not compatible with democracy. Before we can go any further, I need to see your ID. :lol: I am kidding, but more has changed than we realize.

I don't believe that the US had the basis for a Military Industrial Complex (MIC) before WWII. What we had was a very large industrial establishment largely focused on consumer production/. The Great Depression suppressed consumer demand, of course. Military production ended the 1930s depression for us, just as it ended an earlier depression for Germany.

The US prepared for WWII by marshaling the huge industrial resources of the country for military production. Ford, General Motors, Kaiser aluminum / ship building, aircraft manufacturers, Westinghouse, petroleum products, General Electric -- everybody, basically -- switched to a command economy in military goods. — BC

I love you! Exactly things have changed. The US demobilized after every war until Korea. I have a book written after WWII warning what has happened would happen. We didn't fully demobilize because of fear of returning to the depression time economy. Eisenhower's way of managing transition was slow and careful, not like Trump. But let's not forget it is the people who want a STRONG MAN and this goes with Bible stories. You can bet industry did not want to give up those wartime contracts, and they did mean jobs and economic growth.

The cold war and Sputnik were the main justifications for the Military Industrial Complex and the US taking on caring for the whole world and standing behind Israel as it commits genocide to fulfil its desire to have all of what was Palestine. Trump is not all wrong. I do not like the man and I don't think his judgement could be worse, but he is not all wrong.

If this were a Nintendo game that I could replay, I would go back to Roosevlt and the New Deal. At that time W. Edwards Deming tried to get the US to adopt his industrial management model but our autocratic industry rejected that idea. So Deming taught his system to the Japanese and the Japanese kicked our butts in completion for world markets.

W. Edwards Deming, an American statistician and management consultant, played a crucial role in shaping Japan's post-World War II industrial model. Starting in 1950, Deming taught Japanese businessmen and managers his philosophy, which included the importance of statistical quality control and total quality management. This system, later known as the System of Profound Knowledge, emphasized continuous improvement and customer satisfaction, significantly impacting Japan's rise as an economic power. AI

.

Deming's model is democratic, and if the US had adopted his system in the 50's we would have a different reality today. That is especially true if after 4 years the US had returned to its Domestic education preparing the young for good citizenship and good moral judgment. Today if we had democratic industry and education for democracy, there would be no Trump because there would be no problems to make someone want Trump.

So Hitler had death camps and he invaded almost the entirety of Europe, putting the overall death toll to well over 50 million people. That's one subtle difference between him and Trump.

Trump is the king the left tried to shoot but missed. So now he's just a guy who wants to destroy all vestiges of liberalism. DEI, support for Palestine, climate change regulation, trans rights, government employment opportunities, open borders, elite universities, you name it. — Hanover

Trump is not done yet. His support of Israel equals Hitler. His demand that Iceland becomes a US territory because the US needs its resources is equal to Hitler. What he is doing to prevent freedom of speech is equal to Hitler. Replacing people who disagree with him is like Hitler. Trump's lust for power is like Hitler, and ministers telling us Trump is powerful because God makes him powerful, is a horror of blending religion and politics. And calling Trump a king is very Christian and undemocratic.

It's an attempt at overcoming a culture that has become nihilistic by creating a new shared nationalistic myth. — ChatteringMonkey

I had to look up Nihilistic: "Nihilistic means believing that life is meaningless and that there are no values or truths. It can also refer to extreme skepticism or a rejection of established institutions."

Okay, who is pushing the fasict agenda?

First the metaphysical/mythological basis of morality dissolves over time. — ChatteringMonkey

How can this happen if morality is understood as cause and effect?

Then you get fascism trying to rectify that by imposing a new kind of order onto a choatic society. — ChatteringMonkey

That statement is true. It is a mistake to believe freedom means doing anything we want to do or say because that leads to doing and saying immoral things. That leads to anarchy and then fascism. Without virtues and principles, the bad can consume the good. Education is important so we share concepts of virtues and principles.

However, Christianity is a problem because it is myth and not truth. It is nuts to live without a standard for judging truth and figuring out cause and effect (morals). As long as people have children, there will be a desire to get things right so the children have good lives.

You left out the part about how he hasn't murdered 50,000,000 people, which seems an important distinction.

I probably have a slightly different view of morality if you think it is only about figuring out cause and effect.

I think we create morals, as a society, over time. Cause and effect plays a role in that these morals get refined and adjusted by a process of trial and error when we interact with the world. But it's not like science that we just go observing the world and find out what the causes and effects are. There's also a 'subjective' valuing part to it and so there's not only one correct true answer that follows from facts about the world.

So separate societies develop different moralities because of historical contingencies, and these then get passed on to the next generations. To some extend there's an arbitrary element to them that cannot be fully justified rationally or empirically, but has to be taken on faith. Since we live in groups it is also important that there is some coherence to the morals being pursued in the same group. Myths function to justify and anchor those moralities in coherent and comprehensive stories, because that is the way we pass them on and remember them best.

If we come to question those mythical foundations, like say via the scientific method, you eventually also end up losing the justification and anchor for that particular morality. And then people start questioning them and develop their own particular diverging views on it... and you eventually end up with the anarchy or chaos I was referring to (nihilism or Durkheim would call it anomie).

That is when people instinctively start asking for some kind of unifying power to remedy the situation, which can be abused by fascists and the like.

@Athena

The Complex: How the Military Invades Our Everyday Lives — BC

Bought the book and regret it, somewhat. There wasn't much in it that I hadn't heard about at one time or another, and the book is 17 years old. Not that things have changed that much, but some of the examples cited are off-putting--like references to MySpace, a former and now pretty much defunct active social site.

Nick Turse, the author, names dozens of consumer brands that receive revenue from sales contracts with the military, everything from cake mixes to toilet cleaners to bowling alleys.

I don't find much significance in the fact that General Mills sells Cheerios to the army, or that Apple sells its consumer devices to the marines. Much more significant are military contracts with research universities. Research is generally funded by grants and contracts--government or corporations, generally. Engineering research (mechanical / electrical / chemical / molecular / biomedical...) is shaped by the needs of the grant-making entities. Which devices, which kind of circuit, which chemical/molecular processes, which drug, etc. receives the greatest attention is determined by the source of the money.

A research department could focus on green energy generation or it could focus on better drones to deliver bombs to blow stuff to smithereens. It might focus on cancer research or bio-weapons. All sorts of alternate possibilities. Since money, intelligence, time, and space is always limited, grants determine what will get done and what will not get done.

Another downside of the military/industrial complex is that in order to keep military planners and civilian producers happy, a steady (and probably increasing) share of money goes for weapons and a decreasing share remains for civilian purposes. Again, money, intelligence, time, and space are always limited, and more nuclear powered aircraft carriers cuts down on upgrades to civilian water and sewer systems. Compare that shiny new bomber and the rusting bridge you use every day.

@Athena. The military part of the complex has had an influence on civilian rhetoric, rituals, and practices.

Language that was once used exclusively in the military has leaked out into police, fire, first responder forces. Those who died while on duty used to be called fatalities or dead. Now they are called "fallen". Employees of the army used to be called soldiers; now they are called warriors. A fallen warrior has become a secret object.

I found considerable discord at the funeral of a brother who had retired from the army. The family wanted to use several 'martial' gyms and the Methodist pastor rejected their choices as inappropriate. The church did not have American flags in the front of the church. This change had apparently caused a number of veterans to leave the congregation. The ashes urn was covered with a liturgical cloth, rather than the flag which some people wanted. More angst.

At first, I thought I absolutely had to buy a copy of "The Complex: How the Military Invades Our Everyday Lives". But after reading what you said, I am not that interested. However, I am listening to lectures about language and from that perspective, the book might be interesting. We might also consider the effect of changing the meaning of words and having a language based on war instead of family and community. I think that would be a strong unconscious factor.

Your explanation of discord at the funeral is important to the subject. In the past, Military rank was most important to the German, while in the US, industrial leadership was the way to have status. One book I read spoke of a good German father wanting his daughter to marry a military man, while in the US, a good father wanted his daughter to marry an industrial leader. I can see those choices impacting culture and the whole of society. We are defining what is a good man and a good woman. What is the identity of someone who died, a warrior or a family wo/man obidient to God? Where do our loyalties lie?