It is obvious that those people are not pulling the strings because since I said some do it in the "dark" it means that there are people who are hidden, but they hold an important size of power. That's the point. It is more relevant to them to use puppets to rule on. I never claimed they are evil. I just pointed out his relevance.
Do I have evidence? No. Does evidence prove everything? No. Since the premise is that some folks rule the politics hidden by the leaves it would be contradictory to say I can mask them off. It is OK if you think I am in denial. But they are there, whether you accept their existence or not.

Does evidence prove everything? No. — javi2541997

Wait a minute, in the context of science as well as the world of lawyers, evidence does indeed constitute proof if certain conditions are met. Or do you disagree with that?

It is OK if you think I am in denial. — javi2541997

I don't think you are in denial. There is indeed a difference between the world of ordinary people like you and me, and the world of organized crime. I don't like mafias, for example. But I don't think that there's an "elite mafia" running the world. We (as in, the people who are not part of the criminal world) would have destroyed them by now. Or do you disagree with that?

But they are there, whether you accept their existence or not. — javi2541997

Ok. Is there at least one example? One person that belongs to that group?

Wait a minute, in the context of science as well as the world of lawyers, evidence does indeed constitute proof if certain conditions are met. Or do you disagree with that? — Arcane Sandwich

Absolutely. I work at the Land Registry, and I provide a lot of evidence and facts in countless land trials every month. But I thought we were in a different context: an interesting discussion between two online friends and not in a court discussing in front of a judge. :smile:

But I don't think that there's an "elite mafia" running the world. We (as in, the people who are not part of the criminal world) would have destroyed them by now. Or do you disagree with that? — Arcane Sandwich

Hmm... Good point. It is not worthy to be sceptical and suspicious. But I wasn't referring to a mafia elite either. I don't claim they use bad practices to influence politics, but I do think they have power in some manner. I guess, in modern times, a phone call by a person that I believe is important is more relevant than a shot. Now that we are in a thread called 'Australian politics,' it comes to my mind who was the person who proposed to bring Eucalyptus from Australia because it is evident that Franco was limited intellectually. Well, that's the kind of powerful hidden folks that I am thinking of.

Ok. Is there at least one example? One person that belongs to that group? — Arcane Sandwich

A few months ago there was an interesting conflict in the port of Murcia. A ship from a country (Germany, if I am not mistaken), supposedly holding weapons and missiles for Israel, was about to dock in the named port. Yet the notice was quickly spread around like dust, and it ended up in court.

Who was the one who knew about the boat?
How did he know the boat had weapons?
Who pulled the strings in that case? :smile:

Who was the one who knew about the boat?
How did he know the boat had weapons?
Who pulled the strings in that case? :smile: — javi2541997

I don't know. Does anyone know that? Things of that sort can be investigated, officially. At some point you kinda get to the bottom of it. It's just some random criminals, who happen to be semi-organized. They're not what I would call "the elite".

Instead we get governance based on 3 year long reelection political decision making with very limited trust in oppositions. — kazan

So I find myself trusting in the six-year term of what Keating called "that unrepresentative swill". But the Senate gives equal weighting to the states, and so not to intelligence or problem-solving potential.

Again, the Senate may well be more significant than the Reps after the forthcoming election. Especially if we have a minority government. The bastards will have to negotiate.

@kazan this is an example of what I think about when I think about Oceanic Continentalism:



EDIT: And, of course, the obligatory AC/DC song, since this is a Thread about Australian politics:

The bastards will have to negotiate. — Banno

Well, but I think that's a good thing after all. Politics should be the practice of negotiating with the aim of getting agreements done. It will be interesting to see that proportional difference between the Senate and Congress; most of the EU zone countries work in such a way. All of them have coalition governments. It is not appropriate to have a supermajority because it doesn't really represent people.

this is an example of what I think about when I think about Oceanic Continentalism: — Arcane Sandwich

Do you root for some kind of indigenismo politics?

Do you root for some kind of indigenismo politics? — javi2541997

Depends on what you mean by indigenismo. I would say that everyone is indigenous to the place that they were born. You are indigenous to Spain, I'm indigenous to Argentina. And, at the end of the day, we're both indigenous to the planet Earth. Draw whatever lines you wish to draw on map. We were both born in the same general territory, because that territory is the Earth as a planet in this case.

Good points.

I think the indigenous people of Spain were the Iberians, and now my DNA is a mix of Romans, Visigoths, Moors, and other random people in the old settlements in North Africa. I am cool with that.

Yes, we belong to the same place: the earth. But I think it is relevant to the soil where you were born. At least I believe I would be completely different if I were born in the middle of Australia instead of Southwestern Europe, although both places are in the same spot* of the vast universe.

* Approximate dimensions.

I think the indigenous people of Spain were the Iberians, and now my DNA is a mix of Romans, Visigoths, Moors, and other random people in the old settlements in North Africa. I am cool with that. — javi2541997

I probably have Moorish ancestry like way, way back, like one of my great-great-great-grandfathers or whatever. I'd say that it's impossible to have Spanish heritage and not have some Moorish heritage as well, at some point in the genealogical tree. I mean, Andalucía is essentially Moorish Spain, and it's right next to Castilla La Mancha. So, I'd say that all of us, the people that have Spanish heritage, probably have some degree of Moorish heritage as well.

I have Visigoth heritage for sure, and a bit of Basque. Probably some Roman in there as well.

Here's case in point of the inability of the Liberal Party to put together a coherent opinion, let alone a policy. They released a pamphlet over the weekend.

Crikey's back, so there's some interesting Journalism around. See Bernard Keane's response.

In the seventh priority, Liberal Party claims:

Labor’s approach to national security is weak, as shown by cuts to important defence spending (now under 2 per cent of GDP) and the significant shift in Australia’s foreign policy position towards our ally Israel.

We also waste 2 percent of GDP in defence spending, and I already consider it pretty high. I think it is a waste of money and resources if the digit is above two, but Trump will probably threaten all NATO countries to increase it.

Also, they say in the pamphlet: our ally Israel... mate. :death:

More on Liberal policy: Dutton’s 2025 launch still leaves voters needing answers on key policies

Michelle Grattan is a seasoned, well-respected journalist and commentator:

Dutton keeps promising more answers later, but at some point this will start to look like a ploy for concealing the vacuums that need filling with finer print.

Agree. Dutton's only real policy, apart from appealing to fear, uncertainty and doubt, is the nuclear one we started with. I'm hopeful he doesn't win. But I'm also pretty unimpressed with Antony Albanese. He spends too much time trying to be Mr Nice Guy, every voter's friend. He appeared on Spicks and Specks for goodness sake. I can just hear him intoning on talkback radio, 'A huge thankyou to the South Doobyville Fire Brigade for rescuing Mrs Jones' cat from the tree in her backyard. And shame on all the naysayers who are laughing over the fact they ran the cat over when leaving the property. That's Un-Australian!'

Still reckon we're heading for a coalition government with Labour and others.

But I'm also pretty unimpressed with Antony Albanese. He spends too much time trying to be Mr Nice Guy, every voter's friend. — Wayfarer

And what's wrong with that? Is that 'Orid Stuff, to use a phrase that I read just here, about some beer?

:lol: Fair dinkum…..

Still reckon we're heading for a coalition government with Labour and others. — Wayfarer

Did you mean minority government?

Might be the best outcome.

Yes. Gillard's was exemplary, all things considered.

The government will attempt to speak about the cost of living. The opposition will be out to convince us that we live in the sorts of “tough and precarious” times that might require desperate measures. — Ben Smee

Perhaps the pivot point in the election will be how scared folk are.

Blistering critique of Albo in today’s SMH which I’m afraid is pretty on-target.

@Banno,
The 44 page Dutton pamphlet, mentioned 5 days ago (sorry for the tardy backtrack, Life intrudes...again), is long on what needs doing and the "Who bears the blame" ( in the opinion of the Coalition) and, as usual, short on how the Coalition will achieve such....in most instances. A substantive waste of 40 minutes reading and considering unless it's read as a Peter Dutton Revealed/Humanized promo. "Humanized" is probably a reach, more an objective little honored in its achievement.
Interesting point made in Crikey by B Keane.
The question is if the Aust. electorate decides "We won't be fooled again..." Who knows!

Faint smile

It's kind of down to the least worst option. As it so often is.

@javi2541997,
"That wave (a modern socialist perspective)...spread all over the world with the ... exception of the USA..." Well said, :wink:
(because they don't know what social democracy is)... due to careful editing of the USA education system, myth/ethos etc., they can't abide the thought that hard work will not necessarily improve your life's circumstances and that helping your less fortunate fellow is not a weakness at a nationwide level.

Each to their own!

Tired smile

@Wayfarer,

Yeah, like opting for the cream on stale skimmed milk, precious little and nothing of notable worth. As usual!
We tend to have a talent for getting what we vote for and putting up with it until next time.

@Banno,
"Perhaps the pivotal point.....how scared folks are"

and scared the most of on the day they vote.

What a way to garner votes!

Oh, the heights to which noble Politics aspires.... in its dreams.

still tired smile

Anyone want to tie the possible/likely longevity of the current Is-Pal peace deal to a possible/likely outcome of the Fed Election? Given the heightened political and social tension being created with the two currently most popular phobias in "mainstream" media?

engaging smile

Does the pro-Israel vote outweigh the pro-palestine vote? More Australians are in favour than in opposition of recognising Palestine as an independent state, apparently.

B ut both are overwhelmed by those who are "not sure" - or perhaps couldn't give a fuck.

I don't think it will be a big issue, do you?

Here's an uncomfortable read... this article about Paxton's book on the Vichy regime. I noted this:

In demonstrating that France’s leaders actively sought collaboration with the Nazis and that much of the public initially supported them, he showed that the country’s wartime experience was not simply imposed but arose from its own internal political and cultural crises: a dysfunctional government and perceived social decadence.

Australia has a long history of collaboration with the US, which, given the recent coronation is moving along an all to familiar path. Sky news and friends manufacture an Australian "internal political and cultural crises", for Dutton to take advantage of. How far that might go depends on any real crisis that arrises at some time during the perhaps probable forthcoming Dutton government, a government which would finish its first term before the US changes it's monarch.

Yep. Well put. I'm not sure exactly what direction it will go but we'll know soon enough.

Some more about the growth of independents, from ABC News today:

Inside the community independents movement targeting key marginal seats at the next federal election

Local, female and liberal, with a strong interest in climate, 'with a message to "stop Trump-style politics in Australia"'.

Not all bad. Yet.

And a suggestion for another issue that might be an election priority... not.

Prisons don’t create safer communities, so why is Australia spending billions on building them?

Just anther example of our main political parties adopting evidence-based policy...

Education and medicine have long moved to explicitly evidence-based policy. Why not politics? Who knows what might happen. Independents might be the answer.