so I don't get your "who cares" attitude? If it doesn't matter, the why are you even in this discussion? — Christoffer
Two people disagreeing on the criteria of if a Macdonalds ad being art or not is utter meaningless compared to even the minor meaning of them agreeing it is content and discussing the aesthetical appreciation of said ad. — Christoffer
YOU would like to have more fruitful conversations that aren't weighed down by the annoying problem of differing definitions of Art. — flannel jesus
That's not the issue here, I'm talking about a broader perspective of how society handles knowledge and how to mitigate unnecessary lack of clarity through better handling of definitions in language. — Christoffer
so why do you care so much? — flannel jesus
That's not the issue here, I'm talking about a broader perspective of how society handles knowledge and how to mitigate unnecessary lack of clarity through better handling of definitions in language. — Christoffer
You were talking as if the definition of art is stopping you from doing that - I'm letting you know, it is not. — flannel jesus
I'm just pointing out that you're spending a lot of time on the things you call meaningless, and apparently no time on the things you call meaningful, and I think that's interesting.
I do think your definition of art is disagreeable, but I'd be roping you into a conversation you've already said is meaningless if I tried to argue that. — flannel jesus
I think there are a couple places in philosophy where I make an exception for that - where it actually makes sense, I think, to have a more fluid definition of a word. I think EACH PERSON should attempt to concretely define the boundaries for their use of the word, but I don't thinks it's necessary for every person to conceptualize the word the same way or to have the same boundaries as another person. — flannel jesus
Free Will is, I think, another word where each person should draw their own distinct boundaries, but two different people can draw their own ideas of the boundaries in different (often extremely different) places. — flannel jesus
Free Will and Art both have a common feature which makes their fluid-boundary-ness palatable, and that is, they have a more primal experience at the center of them, prior to any concrete definition for the source of that experience. — flannel jesus
Free Will is an *experience* first and foremost, before it's *whatever some particular philosopher defines it as*. — flannel jesus
Most thinking people have the experience of Free Will, before they ever come close to trying to define the word Free Will - that experience is more central than any single definition, and I think it makes sense to leave room for different thinkers to define the boundaries and causes and underlying reality of that experience differently. — flannel jesus
And perhaps Art is similar - perhaps it's an experience first and foremost, before it's a solidly defined word in Webster's English Dictionary. And because it's experience-centric, it makes sense to me to allow for different people to have different boundaries for how they define that experience. — flannel jesus
But if clarity is important, how can we have clarity when words are fluid like this? — flannel jesus
Well, easy: you clarify exacty what YOU mean when you say it, and get them to clarify exactly what they mean when they say it, and then *avoid debating if things are art* -- because that's just semantics, that's just arguing about the boundaries of a subjective experience -- and instead talk about the things you said are more important. As long as MOST words are more clearly unambiguously defined, the occasional word being a bit fluid shouldn't be a terrible barrier to clarity. — flannel jesus
Imagine we did agree on what "art" means - what meaningful conversation could you build out of that agreement? You show me that, and I'll show you how to build that conversation WITHOUT agreeing on what "art" means. Deal? — flannel jesus
I expect both skill and effort from an artist, and a little subtlety doesn't go amiss. I've never understood the appeal of de Kooning or Pollock (though his scribbles are more interesting, why keep making them?) or Rothko.Compare these two items by William de Kooning and Louise Nevelson. — BC
And there's the tragedy. It's not enough to produce novelty, or shock or disgust, even to make a social statement. Anyone can do that with a placard or public display. Without artistry, what we get instead of works of art are vials of feces and piles of plastic garbage. Those exhibitions seems to me contrived for effect, inauthentic, as well as without aesthetic merit.Duchamp's route to a social statement was more vulgar and direct, but it worked. He helped move art forward and legitimize alternative means of expression. — Baden
In order to clear up the ambiguities attaching to the word ‘art’, we must look to its history. The aesthetic sense of the word, the sense which here concerns us, is very recent in origin. Ars in ancient Latin, like τέχνη [technē] in Greek, means something quite different. It means a craft or specialized form of skill, like carpentry or smithying or surgery. The Greeks and Romans had no conception of what we call art as something different from craft; what we call art they regarded merely as a group of crafts, such as the craft of poetry (ποιητικη τέχνη, ars poetica), which they conceived, sometimes no doubt with misgivings, as in principle just like carpentry and the rest, and differing from any one of these only in the sort of way in which any one of them differs from any other. — R.G. Collingwood
Imagine we did agree on what "art" means - what meaningful conversation could you build out of that agreement? You show me that, and I'll show you how to build that conversation WITHOUT agreeing on what "art" means. Deal? — flannel jesus
Maybe there's use in those debates but... it's hard to see — flannel jesus
Some clarifications are useful and help us to manage our lives. — Tom Storm
I find this kind of discussion interesting and helpful because it lets me sort out how different kinds of creations affect me in different ways, how I experience them. It's about self-awareness. — T Clark
Self-awareness for you, and perhaps mental masturbation for others. — Tom Storm
I'd be interested to understand from you why the term art matters so much to some people. Seems to me that some seem to want to reserve the word as a magic charm which can only be waved over certain approved phenomena. — Tom Storm
Now I generally avoid participating in those types of discussions unless I have something constructive to contribute. When I don't I usually regret it and often behave badly. Who needs it. — T Clark
Why do we care?
We take steps to preserve art; urinals, we send to the dump;
We pay more for art;
We fund art; we don't fund game shows;
We study art and consciously allow it to influence history;
Etc. — ENOAH
We take steps to preserve art; urinals, we send to the dump; — ENOAH
We pay more for art; — ENOAH
We fund art; we don't fund game shows; — ENOAH
We study art and consciously allow it to influence history; — ENOAH
We pay attention to art... — ENOAH
art is any creation — ENOAH
which, — ENOAH
when presented to one or more of the senses, triggers profound — ENOAH
inner feeling or drive to act — ENOAH
We pay attention to art...
— ENOAH
We pay attention to porn and horse racing. — Tom Storm
Really, why do we ask or care about what is art? — ENOAH
But also great things emerge out of these seemingly pointless pursuits. — ENOAH
Then what's the point of the concept? Or the word? Or the activity?It seems to me, impossible to define art. So impossible, that one could make a case for art being anything which is presented to the senses and triggers feelings beyond the mundane response to mundane things, as mundane things. — ENOAH
And likely it should simply be that.creative people produce objects and performances that move or inspire or enrage or enthrall other people. — Vera Mont
Somehow, creative people produce objects and performances that move or inspire or enrage or enthrall other people. And those creations, however much or badly they're reproduced and imitated, become part of the culture that ennobles and enriches us, in which we feel we have a stake, of which we are proud. — Vera Mont
find this kind of discussion interesting and helpful because it lets me sort out how different kinds of creations affect me in different ways, how I experience them. It's about self-awareness. If you're not interested in that kind of discussion, you don't have to participate. — T Clark
But surely you would agree, some definitions are, as a strict matter of fact, wrong. There have to be. — Outlander
For clarity, I'm not saying "it's pointless to talk about what art means to various people", I'm more saying, "it's pointless to make it your mission to convince other people with different definitions that your definition is the right one", which is apparently the goal of the guy I was talking to. You see the difference? — flannel jesus
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