• Ege
    20
    Hello everyone!
    This is my first post on this forum and I would like to debate about the hypothetical end of humanity and what would be possible scenarios that could happen. I have been debating this in my mind for a while now and would like to make some points on how Global warming is starting to be incredibly noticeable around the globe where Canada is starting to have extreme cold or Turkey slowly getting cooked even in winter or how it looks like its Autmn in the middle of winter in Sweden where it almost snowed everyday. I remember reading about a line that once crossed, you can't come back from in the matter of global warming. I think that we might be about to cross this imaginary line as humanity and there is nothing being done about it as people don't seem to care that much or cannot do that much about it even though it is affecting them. Also, I have noticed that more and more people are becoming seperated from their own self and get locked up in their mind instead of seeing what is infront of them, really slowly driving most individuals into insanity without them even realizing it. This made me think that it could result in a major breakdown of society as we know it. If more people slowly lose their sense of reality and self, while they stop thinking about what they are going through and instead, prefering to get stuck in a sensless state of mind that makes them less and less functional over time. What could be the result of this if it were to spread to the majority of the globe along with the matter of global warming kept in mind?
  • Tom Storm
    8.1k
    Back in the 1980's I remember reading letters, with content just like your OP, in environmental and left leaning newspapers. Back then, many thought the greenhouse effect (an early version of climate change) would take out most life on earth. People thought President Reagan would probably blow up Russia with atomic bombs and many thought capitalism would eat itself and take out the West. Many also thought that we were heading for annihilation and that people were too obsessed with their own success and greed to do anything to prevent the end of the world from coming. Many of us didn't think we'd make it to the year 2000. Nothing much changes.

    Human life may well come to an end one day. And one day, perhaps a person will write something like you have above and finally be right.
  • Ege
    20
    Yes that is a good point, there are many "catastrophic" events that could have happened yet was always diverted due to everyone or every country working together for example; the acid rains that used to happen are to some extent, no more. However, what intrigued me was what you said about
    Nothing much changes.Tom Storm
    as I am a bit new to this world, I couldn't get to see the changes like you did but still came to the conclusion of nothing changing at some point and reading about a person that read letters in the 80's say nothing changes is a big thing for me. As in the technology we have created seems to be improving, yet its not that much different from the devices back in 1980's only change is that they are getting faster and smaller in size, I feel like we as humans don't do anything much with the technological capability that we have on our hands. or even the technological wonder that we were born with; our brains. Humans get this gift of a supercomputer built in them but never achieve its true potential, just like with the computers that we currently own. And I feel like this might be the reason why we might have a close falling. Some fail to use gifts that we were given as a birthright to them and lose its capabilities to either an addiction or just not using it. As In addiction I mean that being a fanatic,overly supporting a political belief or being extremely religious etc.. I am not saying thoose things shouldn't happen but some people take it to a state of extremisim and get seperated from their belief of becoming one as a society by supporting each other thus creating an almost utopic scenario for our world. And I feel like these events such as; Greenhouse,Reagan,nukes or global warming are major events that might start a utopic scenario or end us as a whole depending on the way it is approached nevertheless, I hope we take the path of an utopic scenario then a end that can easily be averted. The sensless creations of man should come to an end and we should work on building a better future for many to come by actually helping each other.
  • Tom Storm
    8.1k
    By the way, it would help if you separated your ideas with paragraphs - it is hard to read long slabs of text.

    I have no idea what the future holds and spend little time thinking about it.

    I feel like we as humans don't do anything much with the technological capability that we have on our hands. or even the technological wonder that we were born with; our brains.Ege

    Could be. It doesn't much concern me. All we can control is what we do with our own minds and hands. My only principle has been to do what I think is right and read from a wider range of sources.

    I'm not entirely sure what you are arguing - are you saying that people are not taking life and their responsibility as citizens seriously enough and, perhaps, not concerned enough with eudaimonia (flourishing) as Aristotle might have it?
  • Agree-to-Disagree
    349
    I would like to debate about the hypothetical end of humanity and what would be possible scenarios that could happen.Ege

    I have posted something like this before, elsewhere in the forum.

    I am now in my 60's and have lived through many existential threats to humanity.

    - All through my childhood the doomsday clock was sitting at 5 minutes to 12 (fears about nuclear war between the U.S. and the U.S.S.R)
    - predictions of worldwide famine in the 1970s and 80s
    - Malthusian panic and the population bomb
    - the 1973 oil crisis caused by the Organization of Arab Petroleum Exporting Countries
    - acid rain
    - ozone depletion
    - an impending ice age
    - Halley's comet
    - the Large Hadron Collider
    - the Y2K bug
    - various pandemics
    - Covid
    - The Mayan Calendar prediction of 2012
    - Department of Energy Says Oil will Peak in 1990s
    - Department of Energy Says Oil will Peak in 2000
    - Department of Energy Says Oil will Peak in 2010
    - Department of Energy Says Oil will Peak in 2020
    - Pending depletion and shortages of Gold, Tin, Oil, Natural Gas, Copper, Aluminum, etc
    - Oceans will be dead in a decade (prediction made in 1970)
    - etc

    My biggest fear now is that humanity and the earth will be decimated by the attempts to "solve" global-warming/climate-change. This is a scenario that you might want to consider.
  • Ege
    20
    I feel like humanity needs to flourish in a way that they take each others ideas and beliefs more seriously and emphatize with them and instead find meaning in each other.

    Rather than crushing each other for a small pay raise or letting our greed get over us by not sharing something we don't need to the people that actually need it and instead deciding to sell it. Sometimes for considerably funny amounts of money.

    As a society we should take less responsibility on the part of working extra hard to get a small raise and instead dedicate that time to helping the ones in need,helping each other essentially creating a better world for us and more to come.
  • Ege
    20

    My biggest fear now is that humanity and the earth will be decimated by the attempts to "solve" global-warming/climate-change.Agree-to-Disagree
    That is also one of my main concerns.

    As more and more media shows signs to a world ending scenario, we fail to realize the "right" way of doing things, ending this type of problems comes through with us as humans coming together, living and working under one society while sharing knowledge,wisdom and emotions that no longer need to be hidden inside.
  • Corvus
    2.4k
    I recall having an old paperback book called "2012". In the book, the world was supposed to end in 2012, with all the reasons similar to above they listed in the book, and how the Mayan calculation for the end of the world had been set for the year of 2012.
  • Ege
    20
    Yes, I have read about it aswell, but I have also read that the readings may be off by a 100-75 years or so I did not see it as a major concern at the time.
    But nevertheless still interesting how they accurately predicted many solar eclipses at that time.
  • Corvus
    2.4k
    I agree with you that the book's content was very rich, detailed and interesting. It is good that the prediction was wrong. :) It wasn't the book, but the Mayan calculation's fault for the wrong prediction suppose.
  • Vera Mont
    3k
    I remember reading about a line that once crossed, you can't come back from in the matter of global warming.Ege

    We've crossed it The permafrost is no longer permanent and the polar ice sheets are calving like demented rabbits. Meanwhile, PM Trudeau is rabidly attacked for a little barely-effectual carbon tax. What's been done by private enterprise is more hype than change.

    Also, I have noticed that more and more people are becoming seperated from their own self and get locked up in their mind instead of seeing what is infront of them, really slowly driving most individuals into insanity without them even realizing it.Ege

    The rich and powerful are having an attack of closing panic - gobble up more of what's still left of power and wealth than the next guy before it all collapses. The middle class is deep inside its own cloaca in denial - if you squeeze your eyes shut and keep saying la-la-la-la loudly enough, the status quo will hold. The plebians take up flags and pitchforks and angry slogans, rushing after one scapegoat or another - if you just kill the witch, the curse will be broken. The very poor migrate hither and yon, displaced, rejected, dammed up behind walls - until there are so many that no wall can contain them.

    This made me think that it could result in a major breakdown of society as we know it.Ege
    Couple of other factors: the debt-driven capitalist economy is global now and inescapable; resources are running out; interdependent species are extirpated at an accelerating pace; arable lands are increasingly susceptible to drought, flood, tornado, erosion and chemical degradation. The ever-fewer, ever-richer megarich are burying their treasure in luxury vaults and bunkers against the end times, steadily siphoning money out of circulation. Conservative governments cut taxes for business, driving profits up and government revenue down. Meanwhile, the permafrost and environmental degradation are releasing more unknown, unprepared-for pathogens and global connections spread disease faster than ever before, overwhelming already stressed-to-the-limit health care systems. Demagogues with something to prove and little time to do it in rattle bigger and deadlier sabers, hurl bigger and deadlier challenges at one another.

    What could be the result of this if it were to spread to the majority of the globe along with the matter of global warming kept in mind?Ege

    It has, and we are about to see.
    Our best hope is that the economy will break down first and sweep away the current makers of public policy and public opinion. Possibly, this would also ruin the war industries, depriving those demagogues of their WMD's. It would certainly bring down many bad governments. That leaves only the mobs to do damage - which still means a good deal of burning and bloodshed, but not megadeath.
    If the political and monetary system keep deteriorating and survive long enough to start WWIII, relatively small numbers of people will be left alive, in widely separated pockets.
    This means that if the grandfather of all pandemics comes before the economic collapse, it will hasten that collapse but leave more people alive. If it comes after the war to end all, it won't be able to spread to all populations and leave more of the people alive.
    In either case, the planet will be difficult to live on, and the survivors will have to be very resourceful, indeed - just like our distant ancestors had to be. Odds are, there will be a human race to start over.

    Many of us didn't think we'd make it to the year 2000.Tom Storm
    All those same situations still exist; none have been addressed effectively; most have escalated and magnified and concentrated since the 80's. At that time, the worst catastrophe could possibly still have been averted, had nations taken the decisive actions advised by the people who knew what they were talking about, but didn't wield power - although it was already pretty late. Prolonging the complacent okayhood of a prosperous minority for a few extra decades is not quite the same as "it didn't happen then, so it can't happen now" which is what I've been hearing more and more frequently since the 1960's.
    I'm sure the same wisdom was repeated in every great defunct empire.
    Everything ends. Not if, but when.

    All through my childhood the doomsday clock was sitting at 5 minutes to 12 (fears about nuclear war between the U.S. and the U.S.S.R)Agree-to-Disagree
    It's kept on ticking.






    .
  • Lionino
    849
    The permafrost is no longer permanent and the polar ice sheets are calving like demented rabbitsVera Mont
    :meh:

    d934be69-910f-08fc-5665-aaf932210e9d?t=1635833448683

    arctic_nsidc_1998.png
    proxy-image?piurl=https%3A%2F%2Fednh.news%2Fdownload%2Ffr%2Ffonte-du-permafrost-une-boite-de-pandore-climatique-et-sanitaire%2FWebHome%2F1KI2Q6.jpg%3Frev%3D1.2&sp=1706877970T88385d8f8a7542497260171a321c59392876ba03cfa083206f5514dd839f232f
    And a very cool one.
    367_1321_f1.jpeg
  • Ege
    20
    Could be, but still does not explain how they had predicted the upcoming solar flares years in the future.
  • Agree-to-Disagree
    349
    I have also read that the readings may be off by a 100-75 years or so I did not see it as a major concern at the time.Ege

    2012 Doomsday Date May Be Wrong

    Recent research shows that the Mayan calendar's doomsday date ("end of days") may be off by 50 to 100 years.

    You are correct. The world will actually end on December 21, 2062 at 11:11 UTC.
  • Ege
    20
    We've crossed it The permafrost is no longer permanent and the polar ice sheets are calving like demented rabbitsVera Mont

    While this is true there still is time left on the matter and unless we work together as one in this society we won't be able to stop our Inevitable end.

    What's been done by private enterprise is more hype than change.Vera Mont

    There are still some private enterprise doing "good work" but the ones that sell the most usually tend to be the greediest ones for example; Apple, "being sustainable" by removing cables in boxes but in the end creating more plastic waste just for you to buy another box of cables to charge the phone you just bought. The greed of thoose are the ones keeping us on the ground and stopping humanity from reaching its true potential among gods.

    steadily siphoning money out of circulationVera Mont

    I do believe that money is just a concept now more than a physical thing, as Most of the global gold reserves don't even exist or don't equate to the money in circulation. Now currencies are being kept by a system that is unfathomable by most. Or just flat-out hidden, But people fail to realise that the problem is within the economic system created where we enable our greeds to take the better of us instead of helping each other create a better environment for ourselves where we can thrive and flourish.

    Prolonging the complacent okayhood of a prosperous minority for a few extra decades is not quite the same as "it didn't happen then, so it can't happen now" which is what I've been hearing more and more frequently since the 1960's.
    I'm sure the same wisdom was repeated in every great defunct empire.
    Vera Mont

    I sometimes think that history constantly repeats itself its just a matter of finding the loop point and evading the actions taken by corrupt,greedy people and instead choosing to go on a way of prosperity.

    Of course I am not saying that this is something that can be done In a lifetime, but still the foundations can be made for future generations to continue atleast this one good heritage we will leave to them.

    Everything ends. Not if, but when.Vera Mont

    While I think this is true, I think that Everything stays, right where you left it.
  • Ege
    20
    Thank you. I have told several people about this but turns out people are "scared" about the end of the world so had to keep it to myself like most of my work.
  • Agree-to-Disagree
    349
    The ever-fewer, ever-richer megarich ...Vera Mont

    How much money do you need to have to qualify as "megarich".

    If you have food in the refrigerator, clothes on your back, a roof over your head and a place to sleep, then you are richer than 75 per cent of this world.

    If you have money in the bank, in your wallet, and spare change in a dish someplace, then you are among the top 8 percent of the world's wealthy.

    Are you willing to give up most of your wealth and live on the average amount of wealth in the world?
  • Vera Mont
    3k
    While this is true there still is time left on the matter and unless we work together as one in this society we won't be able to stop our Inevitable end.Ege

    You see any two nations or any two political parties in one nation working together? I don't.

    I do believe that money is just a concept now more than a physical thing, as Most of the global gold reserves don't even exist or don't equate to the money in circulation.Ege

    It's not about gold reserves - and hasn't been for some time. What I mean is, the super-rich are putting their assets in tangible and intangible forms that can be sequestered, whether in a yacht, vault or data base. That money (shorthand for the resource+energy+labour+transport that resulted in a product that van be exchanged between people) is not going back into the economy (shorthand for goods and services, tax revenue and infrastructure, employment, production and transaction).

    While I think this is true, I think that Everything stays, right where you left it.Ege
    you're welcome to it.
  • Ege
    20
    Yes but, Only %1 of the %1 are rich enough to pull strings around people that decide the fate of most of us in the long run.
    While we don't have nearly half of the power that they have if the majority decides to unite and simply not get divided in the long run of things the rest will come too.
    we can be the ones that get to actually get to choose our own fates as a person.
  • Christoffer
    1.8k
    What could be the result of this if it were to spread to the majority of the globe along with the matter of global warming kept in mind?Ege

    The breakdown and polarization of society is something seen mostly online. It's part of the extreme ends and not statistically representative of the majority of people. The problem is that these extreme ends are growing, eating away from the majority. But that wouldn't lead to the majority being eroded to nothing, it would simply mean that at some point it will kick everyone into action and standing up against the extreme ends.

    Climate change will not end humanity, it will, at most, end some cultures. It will change the state of the world, making some places uninhabitable, which could be as large as whole countries. It will lead to mass exodus of people who simply "can't return to were they came from" and in turn probably lead to massive increases in racism and concentration camps trying to "deal with the situation". We are effectively talking about billions of people that may need relocation.

    Combined we will see a massive change to society as a whole. Probably in the form of a massive war, world war about resources and a place called "home" for people leaving uninhabitable places.

    The survivors of all of this will reshape how the world looks. Some nations will have effectively "dealt" with the situation of their concentration camps in the worst possible way we can imagine. And subsequent lead to new forms of Nuremberg trials making examples of those who couldn't find their moral compass. Extended from that, the people who fought against the mitigation of climate change will be put into social ostracization. They will be blamed as the cause for the wars and atrocities outside of the ones directly responsible.

    Time will then go on and we will have new works of art created as a meditation of the horrors of the past. A collective healing from the wars and polarization. Conservative views who align with past horrors will be shunned.

    A new era with laws focusing on ecological balance of technology will be formed and hopefully a new improved democracy that mitigates the risk of putting incompetence in power.


    As I see it, all of what's going on will eventually end in some form of large conflict and large form of the worst acts of man. It will get worse before it gets better. The only thing for it not to get worse before it gets better is to radically remove all incompetence in leadership, either by democratic means or by force and for the middle apathetic majority of people to drastically stand up against the extreme ends of polarization - But that will not happen, because it's in human nature to be lazy until shit hits the fan.
  • Vera Mont
    3k
    If you have food in the refrigerator, clothes on your back, a roof over your head and a place to sleep, then you are richer than 75 per cent of this world.Agree-to-Disagree

    And still in no position to reverse the trends or stop the wars or turn off the gas. Meanwhile other 75...76....77...78....79% are coming for your clothes and food. Even in the top 8%, your vote doesn't count.

    How much money do you need to have to qualify as "megarich".Agree-to-Disagree
    at least $10 billion in assets
    https://www.celebritynetworth.com/list/top-100-richest-people-in-the-world/

    Are you willing to give up most of your wealth and live on the average amount of wealth in the world?Agree-to-Disagree

    It wouldn't help anybody much. It wouldn't change the system that impoverishes and disenfranchises and marginalizes the majority. It wouldn't reduce carbon and methane emissions. It wouldn't provide food and medicine to third world countries. It wouldn't reinstate trustworthy journalism to news media. It wouldn't put the glaciers back.
  • Ege
    20
    The breakdown and polarization of society is something seen mostly onlineChristoffer

    I agree. Even though there are small examples of this in the real world it is a minor part of whats going on in the internet, yet we still feel the effects of it in some weird way almost as if the internet is slowly becoming part of our real world and inhabiting us within itself.

    Climate change will not end humanity, it will, at most, end some culturesChristoffer

    The end effects of it might be on a huge scale but on the other hand if we can manage to pull through without crossing the border of global warming I think that its effects can be atleast reduced or slowed down but, If we cannot pull through and end up making a bad decision after another, we may be looking at the end.

    The fact that not enough investments have been made for space to leave this place we call "home" and instead all major investments were made in destroying it with building better and better guns to kill each other and the earth.

    This place was once beautiful yes, but now If you look at earth from space you can see the amount of destruction man has caused. And unless we pull our things together and find a way to save ourselves or atleast give it a try, I don't think even the richest person alive is getting out of this
  • Ege
    20
    And still in no position to reverse the trends or stop the wars or turn off the gas. Meanwhile other 75...76....77...78....79% are coming for your clothes and food. Even in the top 8%, your vote doesn't count.Vera Mont

    that is why I think unionization should happen. Even though one person does not have a voice on their own. When several join together they can be heard more and more as people get together and understand each others problems. We are fighting fire with fire and instead we should put out this fire of hatred in all of us by showing love,kindness and understanding and soon others will follow.

    The more a person feels hatred grow within them the more they lose control of themselves and their actions.
  • Mikie
    6k


    You’ll find a few climate deniers on here you exist merely to voice their uninformed “skepticism” about this topic. Ignore them.

    Nuclear weapons and climate change are existential problems. The publishers of the Doomsday Clock have an informative website about exactly your concerns: https://thebulletin.org/
  • Vera Mont
    3k
    that is why I think unionization should happen.Ege

    Yeh. 'S why workers did it in the 1920's, broken heads 'an' all.
    In Europe, they still have trade unions with some clout. In the US, Reagan started union-busting on the large scale
    Thursday marks 40 years since former President Ronald Reagan fired more than 11,000 striking air traffic controllers. That dealt a serious blow to the American labor movement.
    Now, of course, it's widely legislated https://wisevoter.com/state-rankings/right-to-work-states/
    and conservative candidates are going after the teachers, postal workers and nurses, while private enterprise is trying to dismantle building trades and food service.
    We are fighting fire with fire and instead we should put out this fire of hatred in all of us by showing love,kindness and understanding and soon others will follow.Ege

    Like they always have. That commie rabble-rouser, Jesus of Nazareth learned his lesson....
  • Lionino
    849
    You’ll find a few climate deniers on here you exist merely to voice their uninformed “skepticism” about this topic. Ignore them.Mikie

    Nobody besides flat-earthers deny that the climate is changing. It has been changing since the Earth came to be.
  • Mikie
    6k
    It has been changing since the Earth came to be.Lionino

    Thanks for proving my point.

    @Ege You’ll see that this tired, stupid line is the current go-to among the climate denial crowd.
  • Joshs
    5.1k


    "Climate change" is a platitude of a phrase, "anthropogenic climate change" is not; climate is undeniably changing, as it always has been. The only debate is how much has been caused by us,Lionino

    Ok, I’ll bite. How much do you think has been caused by us?
  • Gnomon
    3.5k
    This is my first post on this forum and I would like to debate about the hypothetical end of humanity and what would be possible scenarios that could happen.Ege
    There is a philosophical difference between a> Climate Change Denial, and b> Climate Disaster Panic, and c> Stoic acceptance that Sh*t Happens that we don't like. All through history, especially in the Bible, doom-saying prophets have seen portents pointing toward catastrophe, and predicted the immanent end of the world. Their projections of future events are typically limited to the current generation, in order to make the necessity for a course change more scary --- as in the recent slew of Dystopian movies, graphically illustrating what will happen if we (humanity) don't change our evil ways.

    Typically. the "End Times" are portrayed as just around the corner. But history is a record of such failed Apocalyptic prophecies*1. So, I wouldn't listen to the self-appointed prophets-of-doom (short-term tacticians), and instead pay attention to the long-term strategists*2, who point to anthropogenic trends that are subject to remediation via Culture Shift : population control, solar power, etc. Cultural change is rapid, compared to climate change, but it has inertia comparable to addictions. Like Democracy, culture change is erratic & messy, but waiting for God to purify the evil world with fire is self-defeating. Humanity may not fix the problem with top-down action, but forward-thinking humans can make incremental changes in the downward trend.

    So, why don't short-term downward trends go all the way down to the bottom? That's because nature & culture are affected by countervailing forces. Until recently, human activities had little impact on global climate swings. But as the long-term chart below illustrates, Culture is now a major player in the climate game : Anthropogenic change, both positive & negative. So, if humanity is fouling its own nest, a bit of countervailing house-cleaning is in order. But burning-down the house, and moving to Mars, may not be a viable solution. Instead, let's just do what humans have always done : adapt to unfavorable conditions (e.g. Ice Ages), by changing those conditions over which we have control*3 (learn to make domesticated fire). Meanwhile, be cool. :cool:


    *1. List of dates predicted for apocalyptic events :
    Predictions of apocalyptic events that would result in the extinction of humanity, a collapse of civilization, or the destruction of the planet have been made since at least the beginning of the Common Era.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_dates_predicted_for_apocalyptic_events

    *2. A worst-case scenario is the most severe possible outcome that can be projected to occur in a given situation. Conceiving of worst-case scenarios is a common form of strategic planning to prepare for and minimize contingencies that could result in accidents, quality problems, or other issues.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Worst-Case_Scenario_series

    *3. Stoic Serenity Prayer : "God, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, courage to change the things I can, and wisdom to know the difference." The Stoics grasped the paradox of acceptance, that accepting pain rather than struggling against it often makes it more bearable.

    LONG TERM CLIMATE CHANGE
    CO2_graph.jpeg
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