The Russian investigation began with the intent of investigating any possible Russia interference. And look where it has led... — creativesoul

It's almost been hijacked by the frenetic interest around the possibility of using it as the killer blow against the Trump presidency. To that extent, Trump is right in sensing that it's aimed at him, even if he really doesn't understand what it's about. I said to a friend on the weekend, Trump's response to 'the Russia thing' is like a rhino charging a jeep - the rhino doesn't really comprehend what a 'jeep' is but it better get the hell off my territory.....(speaking of jeeps.... :P )

If Russia colluded with Trump, then only so that Hillary couldn't get into office. I doubt cool and rational Putin would expect anything from his thin-skinned and bombastic Trumpite. Besides, it's fun to see how American's react with indignation and such anger when they get what they've been doing for years in the Middle East, South America, and Africa.

If Russia colluded with Trump, then only so that Hillary couldn't get into office. I doubt cool and rational Putin would expect anything from his thin-skinned and bombastic Trumpite. Besides, it's fun to see how American's react with indignation and such anger when they get what they've been doing for years in the Middle East, South America, and Africa. — Question

People like to fake being moral when they're not...

If one can be proven as having joined the Russian team that was being put together with the sole motive of doing whatever it takes to influence the American election in one's favor, then s/he ought be punished to the fullest extent of the law.

If there is no expressed written legal recourse, then the law is absent. As such, the statutes ought be immediately changed as a means of not only remedying the current situation, but also as a means of deterring it in the future.

If it is the case that there is expressed written legal recourse, but it is not being enforced, then those involved in prosecuting such grievances against the American ideal aren't doing their job.

If it is the case that the laws are no longer enforced because in order to enforce them the government would have to admit that they ought to have been being enforced all along, then they would be admitting that no one is/was doing their job.

If it is the case that this offense is being overlooked simply because all of those responsible don't want to admit that no one was doing their job because - after all - they all need to keep their job(they can get rich that way, ya know?), then they ought not have it.

The American system is quite simply the best that money can buy. They're not alone.

Two things need to be proven which haven't:

1. Russia tampered with the election and affected the outcome.
2. Trump and/or the Trump campaign facilitated that.

Until incidents like idiot Don Jrs I'll-advised meeting with the Russian lawyer connect to those possible occurrences, they should not take precedence over working towards Medicaid-for-all, working against American racist police brutality, ending the war in Syria, and the coverage of those things.

Until incidents like idiot Don Jrs I'll-advised meeting with the Russian lawyer connect to those possible occurrences, they should not take precedence over working towards Medicaid-for-all, working against American racist police brutality, ending the war in Syria, and the coverage of those things. — Thanatos Sand

Mueller's investigation and Congress are two different things, so I'm not sure what you mean by talking about one thing taking precedence over another.

I'm talking about the Press, Congress, and many Americans obsessions with (at this point) Russia conspiracy theories--and anything possibly related to them--to the detriment of more important issues.

What's more important than preserving the very institutions and ideals that the US was founded upon? Lose that and you'll lose everything you're calling "more important issues".

:-|

Apparently Trump has been asking about his powers to pardon himself, his family, and his aides, so it looks like there's certainly something for Mueller to discover. And apparently he's also concerned about Mueller having access to his tax records – and was just yesterday saying that Mueller shouldn't look into his family's finances.

So at the very least I'd guess that Mueller is going to discover some shady money stuff.

What's more important than preserving the very institutions and ideals that the US was founded upon? — creativesoul

Those ideals are long gone my friend - for most people. You think Obama was preserving the ideals the US was founded on? Give me a break...

Here's what I think will happen. Trump will fire Mueller. The Republicans in Congress won't do anything. The conservative-led Supreme Court will rule that gerrymandering isn't unconstitutional. Trump's voter fraud commission will lead to many legitimate Democratic voters being unable to vote. The Republicans will sweep the next elections. One or more Supreme Court justice will retire or die and be replaced by more far-right conservatives. Trump will be re-elected. America will become an oligarchy.

Here's what I think will happen. Due to a temporal rift, an angry Romulun will blow up the Vulcan home planet as revenge on Spock for his failure to save Romulus. Star Trek will be rebooted as an alternate reality.

Was that an argument?

Mueller has already interviewed Manafort. Manafort detailed the meeting at Trump Tower that has captured recent headlines...

X-)

Trump Jr. has been caught in a bold-faced lie, as has anyone who knew about that meeting prior to it's being disclosed by Manafort. It is worth noting that the evidence already warrants conviction of Manafort for espionage. Thus, he is primed for turning state's evidence.

America will become an oligarchy.

America already is an oligarchy and has been one a long time.

Trump Jr. has been caught in a bold-faced lie, as has anyone who knew about that meeting prior to it's being disclosed by Manafort. It is worth noting that the evidence already warrants conviction of Manafort for espionage. Thus, he is primed for turning state's evidence.

Most people in politics, including Dubya, Obama, and Hillary, have been caught in bold-faced lies. That doesn't denote treason, which has been thrown out by MSM always attached to the bet-hedging phrases like "seems" or "appears." And you need a trial for espionage, so considering he hasn't even been indicted, saying evidence already warrants his conviction of it is nonsensical. And you assume he has substantial state's evidence to turn. Since it's been 9 months and we've yet to see evidence for that holy-grail of Hillary supporters--evidence of a Russia-hacked election--that evidence could, and probably is, just shady financial dealings....which we all already know Trump has participated in.

I think Mueller will discover that the Russians, probably like the US and a lot of other countries, pay people to think up and implement unlikely scenarios. In this case the long term recruitment of interesting US citizens. Likely many years ago Trump appeared on the Russian radar and they played him to perfection, understanding him perfectly. It would be the way you train a dog, always let the dog win, and always reward the dog. The Russians would not have been interested in Trump as a spy; rather they would have been interested in him as a powerful and rich friend. And it wouldn't hurt if they got Trump to believe that they - the Russians - were only interested in getting along and making good business deals. This probably played out over the course of years, And maybe for a lot of that time the Russians figured their investment was mostly a sunk cost without to much in the way of a return. Then Big Surprise!

Trump probably knows that he's got a tiger by the tail, although the tiger really has him. He cannot claim either ignorance or innocence. Maybe he could have early on.... But by now the Russians have got both carrot and stick in hand, and Trump knows they'l beat him with it if they need to.

In short, Trump is not a spy looking to give up military secrets or the like, although he has apparently given up security secrets; rather he is a Russian agent, and will work with them because by now he has no choice. The Russians, for their part, will in my opinion be very careful, smart enough not to try to eat both halves at one sitting, so to speak. And Trump, for his part, and I think at the direction of his Russian drivers, has compromised and ruined everyone around him.

This is all I got to make sense of what I'm hearing and reading. If Trump is not the Russian's guy, then nothing makes sense. Craziness won't do; most folks don't realize that most (functional) crazy people, even really crazy (functional) people, make sense most of the time.

SIde question: the Secret Service was founded in 1865. for 152 years a main part of their job has been to protect the president. What do they do if he's committing treason?

Nice post.

The Russians would not have been interested in Trump as a spy; rather they would have been interested in him as a powerful and rich friend. And it wouldn't hurt if they got Trump to believe that they - the Russians - were only interested in getting along and making good business deals. This probably played out over the course of years, And maybe for a lot of that time the Russians figured their investment was mostly a sunk cost without to much in the way of a return. Then Big Surprise!

What is the big surprise? As of yet, it's not clear the Russians have gotten anything except possibly the lessening of sanctions for actions they haven't even been proven of doing.

But by now the Russians have got both carrot and stick in hand, and Trump knows they'l beat him with it if they need to.

To prove this true, or even support it as likely, you have to show what Trump has gotten from the Russians and how he has bent to them. So, far we've seen barely any evidence of either.

If Trump is not the Russian's guy, then nothing makes sense. Craziness won't do; most folks don't realize that most (functional) crazy people, even really crazy (functional) people, make sense most of the time.

Of course it does. It would just show all the Russia paranoia and frenzy whipped up by MSM, Democratic and some Repbulican congressmen, and Hillary supporters is a big load of nothing. Considering no evidence has yet been shown of Trump actually being "Russia's guy," that's probably the case.

SIde question: the Secret Service was founded in 1865. for 152 years a main part of their job has been to protect the president. What do they do if he's committing treason?

You'll have to ask that when and if he actually commits it. Hillary Clinton sold Putin uranium through her Clinton Foundation; nothing happened to her.

And maybe for a lot of that time the Russians figured their investment was mostly a sunk cost without to much in the way of a return. Then Big Surprise! — timw

What is the big surprise? — thanatos sand

That Donald Trump became President.

Funny, I had just been reading about the Truman upset the week before the election. So it did go through my mind...

What is the big surprise?
— thanatos sand
That Donald Trump became President.

And yet there is no evidence that happened because of Russia. But we know for a fact the Hillary campaign worked with their media connections to build up Trump during the Republican primaries because they thought he was the easiest to beat. We also know Hillary was a terrible candidate whose campaign people ran a terrible campaign, completely ignoring the Rust belt states they went on to lose to Trump.

That's why Trump won....not some ephemeral Russia connection.

If Trump is not the Russian's guy, then nothing makes sense. Craziness won't do; most folks don't realize that most (functional) crazy people, even really crazy (functional) people, make sense most of the time. — timw

Of course it does. It would just show all the Russia paranoia and frenzy whipped up by MSM, Democratic and some Repbulican congressmen, and Hillary supporters is a big load of nothing. — Thanatos sand

Is that an argument you're making, that all of it is just Democrat nonsense and a nothing? As a life long Democrat (read Republican, because the Democrat party is the only place real Republicans can call home) I can concede that Democrats have been responsible for their share of nonsense over decades. (In my opinion the last Republican president was Dwight Eisenhower.) But that is no account at all for the lies told by the Trump White House and his supporters.

Aside from the lies, do you really believe Trump won the popular vote but for millions of illegal votes? Do you really think his trying to collect voter data from the states is innocent? Do you really believe his offer to create a hack-proof cyber system with the Russians is innocent? Who thinks up this stuff? Do you think Trump does? And Kushner's attempt to set up a secret "back-door" communications system with Russia? And the attempts, as we write, to discredit Mueller? And his firing of Sally Yates for warning him? This list could go on and on, and Democrats had nothing to do with it. Can you say KellyAnn, Sean, Sarah Huckabee? And now Mooch?

And yet there is no evidence that happened because of Russia. But we know for a fact the Hillary campaign worked with their media connections to build up Trump during the Republican primaries because they thought he was the easiest to beat. We also know Hillary was a terrible candidate whose campaign people ran a terrible campaign, completely ignoring the Rust belt states they went on to lose to Trump.

That's why Trump won....not some ephemeral Russia connection. — Thanatos Sand

I agree. It was Hillary's and the Democrat party's business to win, and they didn't. In passing I note that Republican campaigns have generally been much more geared to doing what it takes to win than their Democrat counterparts. Unfortunately for all of us, Republican campaign tactics have often been repugnant and repulsive. They have done a good job of evading issues and reducing matters to irrelevant sound-bites and phrases. For example, I thought Ron Ziegler was a horror (look him up) but compared to Trump's public relations team, Ron was a man of high principle.

Is that an argument you're making, that all of it is just Democrat nonsense and a nothing? As a life long Democrat (read Republican, because the Democrat party is the only place real Republicans can call home) I can concede that Democrats have been responsible for their share of nonsense over decades. (In my opinion the last Republican president was Dwight Eisenhower.) But that is no account at all for the lies told by the Trump White House and his supporters.

Is that an argument you're making? I hope not. The Trumps have lied like Obama, the Bushes, and the Clintons lied before them. That doesn't mean they're working for the Russians or helped the Russians "hack" the election.

Aside from the lies, do you really believe Trump won the popular vote but for millions of illegal votes?

I never said this. You're reading my posts just terribly.

Do you really think his trying to collect voter data from the states is innocent? Do you really believe his offer to create a hack-proof cyber system with the Russians is innocent? Who thinks up this stuff? Do you think Trump does?

I never said this stuff. Why are you having such reading difficulties?

And Kushner's attempt to set up a secret "back-door" communications system with Russia?

You really need to provide a link for this one that supports this claim and explains what it entails.

And the attempts, as we write, to discredit Mueller? And his firing of Sally Yates for warning him? This list could go on and on, and Democrats had nothing to do with it. Can you say KellyAnn, Sean, Sarah Huckabee? And now Mooch? ]

Can you say that in that rant and ramble you don't provide one piece of evidence showing Trump is owned by Putin or he helped them "hack" the election? Thanks for supporting my arguments.

I agree. It was Hillary's and the Democrat party's business to win, and they didn't. In passing I note that Republican campaigns have generally been much more geared to doing what it takes to win than their Democrat counterparts. Unfortunately for all of us, Republican campaign tactics have often been repugnant and repulsive.

Actually, it was the Democrats/DNC who ran the most repugnant and repulsive campaign when they rigged the primary against their superior candidate, Bernie Sanders, who both had better policies and a better chance against Trump. In doing so, they defrauded Sanders, his voters, and his donors, and have lost many future Democrats who will never trust the party again.

The Trumps have lied like Obama, the Bushes, and the Clintons lied before them. — Thanatos Sand

That is the biggest lie of all. Trump lies continuously, and all of his trolls applaud. That is how this catastrophe of Trump's presidency is sustained. It will end in disaster for everyone.