I suspect that our definitions of "abstraction" are confined by our definitions of "concrete" or "real". From the perspective of monistic Materialism/Physicalism, nothing can be immaterial or unreal. The problem with lumping matter & mind into a single category though, is that we can't make the kinds of distinctions that philosophers are interested in. For example, in Plato's allegory of the cave "the shadows are the prisoners' reality, but are not accurate representations of the real world."And as 180 Proof pointed out abstract objects really only exist in a physically instantiated form, which I agree with. — Mark Nyquist
I didn't mean to offend you by inquiring into your personal preferences. But, it's that "some other way" definition of immaterial that is controversial. Besides, on this Philosophy Forum, personal feelings about hot-button words are all too often the crux of argumentation on divisive topics, as opposed to dictionary definitions.I don't know why you are trying to bring what you speculate are my personal reactions to the term "immaterial" into the conversation. . . . . when something is said to be immaterial there are two common meanings: either that it doesn't exist or is unimportant, or that it exists in some way other than the material. — Janus
I didn't mean to offend you by inquiring into your personal preferences. — Gnomon
But, it's that "some other way" definition of immaterial that is controversial. Besides, on this Philosophy Forum, personal feelings about hot-button words are all too often the crux of argumentation on divisive topics, as opposed to dictionary definitions. — Gnomon
So, it's the emotional baggage attached to some words that make rational dialog difficult. — Gnomon
in order to communicate I need to know which implicit meaning of the term you are intending. To be explicit, when I use the term "immaterial" or "meta-physical", I'm referring to concepts that may be "unimportant" for scientists, but centrally important for philosophers. Are you approaching the topic from the science side or the philosophy side? — Gnomon
Yes, philosophers have been debating Formalism (Platonism) versus Physicalism for millennia*1. But even Aristotle's theory of physical bodies combined Hyle (concrete matter) with Form (abstract pattern or design)*2. So, it seems that physical stuff and mathematical/logical patterns go together like birds of a feather. In reality, you can't have one without the other. But in ideality, Plato thought that the abstract Idea (form ; concept ; definition ; design ; pattern) of a real thing necessarily existed prior to its instantiation in the material world.Isn't Mathematical Platonism a common argument used to undermine physicalism — Tom Storm
Actually, it's not always "just ideas" that are being exchanged on this forum. Sometimes it's ideas with emotional connotations (feelings) that are used, not to simply convey information, but to sneer at the worldview associated with those words.You didn't inquire into my personal preferences, but spoke as if you knew what they were, and here you go again; assuming what my personal reactions are. But don't worry, I don't get offended by people in online exchanges, it's just ideas being exchanged, or ignored, or critiqued or whatever. — Janus
Your silly projections aside, Gnomon: given that X is "immaterial" (i.e. not instantiable), what (non-trivial) difference does this X make (i.e. how is X consequential)? :chin:For example, ↪180 Proofhas made his implicit emotional reaction explicit, as in the post above: "@Gnomon "Im-material" = not instantiable (i.e. un-observable), ergo in-consequential." — Gnomon
Consequently, when I insist on using immaterial (metaphysical)*2 language on a philosophy forum, some posters get riled-up. — Gnomon
But even Aristotle's theory of physical bodies combined Hyle (concrete matter) with Form (abstract pattern or design)*2. — Gnomon
*2. Hylomorphism, (from Greek hylē, “matter”; morphē, “form”), in philosophy, metaphysical view according to which every natural body consists of two intrinsic principles, one potential, namely, primary matter, and one actual, namely, substantial form. It was the central doctrine of Aristotle's philosophy of nature. — Gnomon
Now here's an example of misusing Aristotle: for him form is not "abstract pattern or design" but the substantial actualization of potential (matter) as evidenced by your own footnote:
*2. Hylomorphism, (from Greek hylē, “matter”; morphē, “form”), in philosophy, metaphysical view according to which every natural body consists of two intrinsic principles, one potential, namely, primary matter, and one actual, namely, substantial form. It was the central doctrine of Aristotle's philosophy of nature. — Gnomon — Janus
In the Hylomorphism quote from my post, Aristotle makes a pertinent distinction between Potential (not yet real ; insubstantial) and Actual (substantial) Form. So, I was not "misusing" Aristotle. Your own preferred definition of Potential as "substantial actualization of potential", is in agreement with my assertion that, prior to actualization, Form is an unreal abstract idea : a pattern in the mind, not in matter*2. Do you agree that Abstractions are patterns stripped of substance? If so, then we can continue to discuss Monism. :smile:
*1. Form, In the philosophy of Plato and Aristotle the active, determining principle of a thing. The term was traditionally used to translate Plato’s eidos, by which he meant the permanent reality that makes a thing what it is, in contrast to the particulars that are finite and subject to change. Each form is the pattern of a particular category of thing in the world; — Gnomon
But even Aristotle's theory of physical bodies combined Hyle (concrete matter) with Form (abstract pattern or design)*2. — Gnomon
Now here's an example of misusing Aristotle: for him form is not "abstract pattern or design" but the substantial actualization of potential (matter) as evidenced by your own footnote: — Janus
For example, the excerpt below*1 indicates that the term Form was indeed equated with recognizable Patterns, "in the philosophy of Plato and Aristotle". Moreover, there are accidental patterns (noise) and intentional or designed patterns (signal). And that distinction does make a difference in philosophical exchanges. — Gnomon
Form, In the philosophy of Plato and Aristotle the active, determining principle of a thing. — Gnomon
I agree Aristotle makes a distinction between potential and actual. but I don't read him as thinking of potential as 'Insubstantial form" but as "primary matter" which I take to mean formless matter. We were not discussing Plato, but again I don't understand Plato's forms to be "abstract patterns" but rather understood to be things more real than actual forms. — Janus
But being-at-work is what Aristotle says the form is, and the potency, or straining toward being-at-work is the way he characterizes material.
Every being is an end in itself, and the word telos, that we translate as end, means completion.
I'm also not an authority on Plato or Aristotle, but my information-centric philosophy incorporates several of their ideas where relevant to quantum & information theory. My unconventional usage of terms like "abstract patterns" may be unfamiliar to those who are not conversant with some of the ideas coming out of quantum physics and information science. Some of those "weird" notions could be described as Platonic. For Plato, the idea or meaning or model or definition or design of a thing is its ideal Pattern*1. The rational mind recognizes abstract patterns in concrete things that are characteristic or typical of other similar things. Moreover, from a single Abstract or Potential pattern, many similar Real or Actual objects can be instantiated*2.I agree Aristotle makes a distinction between potential and actual. but I don't read him as thinking of potential as 'Insubstantial form" but as "primary matter" which I take to mean formless matter. We were not discussing Plato, but again I don't understand Plato's forms to be "abstract patterns" but rather understood to be things more real than actual forms. — Janus
There are two senses of "form" in Aristotle, one is the formula, abstract pattern or design — Metaphysician Undercover
Aristotle rejects the idea that forms are patterns (Metaphysics 991a-b). — Fooloso4
Yes. I don't know how the experts interpret the slightly different Plato/Aristotle worldviews. But I get the impression that Plato imagined a Dualistic world, composed of both Ideal and Real stuff. Yet, Aristotle tried to merge Plato's duality into a Monistic worldview with his Hylomorphic theory*1. Apparently, the early Catholic theologians also tried to have it both ways : Physical and Metaphysical. They adopted Plato's Ideal realm as a heavenly or spiritual "uber-reality" in their Super-natural musings, and used Aristotle's more physical/material worldview as the basis for Natural Philosophy, which eventually became modern Science : always searching for useful functional patterns in Nature*2. Consequently, philosophy has been schizophrenic ever since.There are two senses of "form" in Aristotle, one is the formula, abstract pattern or design, the other is the form of the individual, particular object, as united with the matter in hylomorphism. — Metaphysician Undercover
Can you cite a passage from Aristotle where he speaks about abstract pattern or design? — Janus
If you want to know what Aristotle & Plato thought on a particular question, you'll have to consult those authorities directly. But then, you'll have have to do the work of reconciling their differences into a single concept. On the other hand, if you want to know what a mere forum poster thinks on that question, you may have to endure some personal opinions and indirect references to the wisdom of the past. Since A & P literally wrote the book on Philosophy, anything I or anyone else might say will be merely footnotes*1 to those auteurs.If we are going to cite Aristotle or Plato on these questions,I want to know what they thought, not what you or someone other internet poster thinks about what they thought.. . . . my own understanding is that form and matter are inseparable. — Janus
Sure check it out. Skepticism is good ; especially when presented with novel or unconventional ideas : informed skepticism. Most people are only aware of Shannon's definition of Information, and its relationship to computers*1. But quantum physicists are now equating Information (the power to enform or to transform) with Energy. That's why I refer to the "most fundamental thing" as Generic Information*2. That's my term, not the physicists'. Note -- I spell "inform" with an "e" to distinguish it from data processing, and to indicate its relationship to causal Energy.↪Gnomon
I would question your idea that information is the most fundamental thing but since you gave your references I'll check that out if I can get to it.
My view is information (not the abstract consept definition but as it physically exists as brain state) is on the derived complex end of the spectrum... existing in emergent and well developed biological brains. — Mark Nyquist
Apparently, you are only willing to accept the manifesto assertions of authorities on the subject, and not the humble suggestions of mere amateurs. — Gnomon
I'll take that as an admission that you cannot cite anything which supports the claim that form is first and foremost abstract or "immaterial". — Janus
There are two senses of "form" in Aristotle, one is the formula, abstract pattern or design, the other is the form of the individual, particular object, as united with the matter in hylomorphism. — Metaphysician Undercover
There are two senses of "form" in Aristotle, one is the formula, abstract pattern or design — Metaphysician Undercover
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