So, the interesting question for me is: can a word find positive connotations through its negative connotations? — Jamal

How much social power you got in your pocket? The examples are definitely instructive. As well as "nerd", "geek" has become deinsultivized. When I was growing up the term signified social ineptness and physical weakness. No one wanted to be a geek. Now it's just someone who plays a lot of video games. But there's a good reason for this, pretty much every kid (in our privileged societies) has a game console now and probably a phone full of games too on which they spend huge amounts of their free time. Technology has made it so that behavioural norms have changed rapidly over the past few generations and that has demarginalized groups like nerds and geeks.

That change has a clear narrative. Other changes not so much. I remember the phrase "How bad!" meaning "Nice!" or "Cool" colonising us in Ireland when I was in my late teens. Very quickly it became the default term. Why? Who knows? In this case, there wasn't time for cultural change, it just suddenly caught on (despite the general idea of "bad" meaning "good" or "cool" being around for years and having virtually no effect on how we talked (e.g. Michael Jackson's "Bad"). In fact it would have sounded self-consciously stupid right up until it suddenly wasn't.

So, I think the answer to your question is "yes" but it's not something we can control and while "Buffoon" is a word that's just on the edge of having a potential positive connotation, (e.g. the affectionate "you big buffoon"--which through some weird trick of logic somehow sounds so much better than "you buffoon"), the added context and shared understanding is needed.

@bc I agree we're going to cause a huge linguistic and cultural mess if we get into trying to redefine the age old metaphor of light vs darkness from which the idea of white being good and black being bad by extension followed. It might make sense to let words like "black list" vs "white list" fall out of use because there are the potential for obvious misunderstandings but yes, it's stupid to try to ban a metaphor that long predates racism and I think most people regardless of their ethnicity would agree. That's something that could be worthwhile to put on the school curriculum. As for "niggardly", no need to lose that word either, but in a case where there was a potential for immediate offence and confusion amongst the less linguistically aware, why bother using it?

All good stuff, but. I meant something a bit different. Maybe amateur, which I was talking about in my last post, is a better example. To use it to mean someone who does it for the love, not the money, is not only to bring the etymology to the fore and thereby introduce a more subtle distinction; it’s also to embrace the negative connotations to some degree: you’re right, I don’t make a living from it, and I’m fine with that.

And if I manage to pull the same thing off with buffoon—I’m working on it—then I can say, you’re right, I am a buffoon, because I don’t accept this society’s attitude to frivolity, joy, silliness, and in refusing to accept it I am being a rebel and speaking truth to power, as the original buffoons did.

And the key thing here is that this cannot be done if the words simply switched to positives like “nerd” or whatever.

EDIT: sorry about the multiple posts folks, I’m thinking on the fly again and I’m on a phone.

OK, I think I get you now. I guess you can get away with that with "buffoon"--if you ever get a chance. I expect the opportunities will be few. Most likely, either you'll get called a "buffoon" for stupidly bumping into someone on the street while using your phone or something and it wouldn't make sense to celebrate or someone will use the word against you in a deliberately self-consciously ironic way where they steal your opportunity.

Or maybe this is how it will go :

Jamal: *While sitting chatting to his wife, spills wine all over his pants*

Jamal's wife: (Affectionately) "Ah, don't worry, you big buffoon."

Jamal: "Yes! Yes! I am a buffoon and proud of it! Look!" *Spills more wine--this time all over his shirt* "Ha! See! Do you see now?! Do you see?!"

Jamal's wife: *silence*

Well, glad we've uncontroversially cleared all this up. :up:

:lol:

But seriously that is how I sometimes behave, heroically bringing light where there is darkness.

"Buffoon" is in fact used in the sense of "clown", referring to someone who is "being silly" or "acting the fool". In those cases it makes sense to pull my trick. Not so much when my wife calls me a buffoon for making a mistake, causing an accident, etc.

But seriously that is how I sometimes behave, heroically bringing light where there is darkness. — Jamal

Hope you've got a good stain remover. :lol:

In those cases it makes sense to pull my trick. — Jamal

:up:

Oh and:

bringing light where there is darkness. — Jamal

Nice link to:

the age old metaphor of light vs darkness — Baden

Interestingly, being a buffoon is acting the buffoon. Being a fool is, sometimes, acting the fool. Jesters were not always or often mere idiots, but had an act.

So these words are quite complex. They mean either the real person or their act, or both. Being and acting.

Nice link to: — Baden

Yes, that was totally intentional. :smirk:

Interestingly, being a buffoon is acting the buffoon. Being a fool is, sometimes, acting the fool. Jesters were not always or often mere idiots, but had an act. — Jamal

Yes, hadn't thought of that. Similarly for clown when not meant in the literal sense; "You clown!" references acting the clown. But seems like we would say "playing the Jester"? Something to think more on for sure because the idea can definitely be extended and I feel there's something important to say about it though I don't know what it is yet.

I feel there's something important to say about it though I don't know what it is yet. — Baden

I thought I'd done that already :cry:

Oh, God, give me the patience to read to the end of one of Jamal's posts... But not yet!

I'm done here!

:lol: Sorry @javi2541997.

The idea of having formal and informal words is a core part of that language, and there are many ways of saying the same thing which have very different meanings due to the level of formality. — Judaka

I agree.

But it is important to highlight that the meaning of a word changes among different generations. This is why Ishihara referred to Koreans as "sangokujin", He explained that is how they described Korean people living in Japan in his time. I am not pretending to defend him, because it is clear that he is a racist politician. I have read a lot of him, and he was a proud nationalist. Yet, my point goes beyond.

"Sangokujin" is a normal word in Japanese, but some use it in a twisted manner. Shintaro Ishihara used it in this way, no doubts on that. But, if a Korean or foreigner goes to a public institution in Japan and reads the word "Sangokujin", it will be weird to get offended because they are literally foreigners.

@javi2541997 There’s a Japanese novella called 道化の華, translated as The Flowers of Buffoonery. The key word here seems to have the alternative translation of clown, so it looks like it has a very similar meaning.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Flowers_of_Buffoonery

I know it and I have read it. Osamu Dazai was one of the top Japanese writers, and I always recommend his novels and short stories. More than a novel, The Flowers of Buffoonery, is a short story included in another novel called: "No Longer Human."
It is interesting because the novel you referred to has the most approximate translation in both English and Spanish because in my edition it says:"flores de bufonería." :flower:

A top writer! I recommend you his works! :up:

I asked to chat GPT the same topic. It is interesting because it seems that the AI defends the fact that words are neutral.

I thought it would be interesting to read, so I copy and paste the conversation in this thread:

Me: Does vocabulary have negative connotations?

GPT: No, vocabulary itself does not have negative connotations. Vocabulary refers to the set of words known and used by a person or in a language, and it is a neutral term.

However, the way in which someone uses their vocabulary, or the connotations of specific words within a language, can have negative connotations. For example, if someone uses their vocabulary to belittle or insult others, or if certain words in a language are associated with negative stereotypes or discrimination, then those specific uses or connotations may have negative connotations.

Overall, it is important to remember that words themselvesare not inherently good or bad, but rather the way in which they are used and the context in which they are used can give them positive or negative connotations.

Me: How can a word be neutral?

GPT: A word can be neutral if it does not inherently carry a positive or negative connotation or meaning. Some words are simply descriptive and do not carry any emotional or evaluative content. For example, words like "table," "chair," "book," "tree," and "cloud" are neutral because they describe objects without expressing any positive or negative sentiment.

In addition, some words can have multiple meanings, and their connotation or meaning can depend on the context in which they are used. For example, the word "hard" can be used to describe something that is difficult or firm, but it does not inherently carry a positive or negative connotation.

Overall, whether a word is neutral or not depends on the context and the way in which it is used. Words themselves do not have inherent positive or negative meanings, but their connotations and meanings can be influenced by factors such as culture, personal experience, and societal norms.

But then I asked the tricky word: buffoon. :snicker:

Me: Why does the word "buffoon" have a negative connotation?

GPT: The word "buffoon" has a negative connotation because it is typically used to describe someone who behaves in a ridiculous or foolish manner, often for the amusement of others. The term is often associated with someone who is clumsy, inept, or lacking in intelligence or social skills. The term can also be used to describe someone who intentionally behaves in an absurd or foolish way, in order to gain attention or to make others laugh at them.

The negative connotation of the word "buffoon" comes from the fact that such behavior is often seen as unbecoming or inappropriate in certain situations, such as in a formal setting or when dealing with serious issues. Furthermore, the term can be used in a derogatory manner to insult or belittle someone, particularly if they are seen as lacking in dignity or self-respect.

It's important to note that while the word "buffoon" does have a negative connotation, it is still a neutral term in the sense that it is simply a descriptive word used to characterize certain types of behavior. The negativity associated with the term comes from the way it is used and the context in which it is used, rather than any inherent negativity in the word itself.