I suspect we all have our demons. The ultimate demon seems to be the demon of nothingness; the void of meaninglessness. For me that demon is always there, lurking. I keep it at bay by virtue of what interests me, what I care about. What I care about constitutes the meaning of my life, and I acknowledge that the less it has to do with my own merely selfish interest, the more meaningful it may become. At times, when my thoughts and feelings tend towards depression, I feel the anxiety that the demon might rise up and devour me. But I have learned not to feed depressive thoughts and feelings, and to keep the demon of nihilism beyond the periphery of my active concern. Life is neither meaningless nor meaningful per se, but only insofar as you think and feel it is either, or more or less, one or the other.

Hello. May I ask, would you define the cause of the depression more as rational or emotional? Rational would be like the philosopher Satre who was convinced that life is meaningless. Emotional would be like finding no particular reasons for the depression and yet there it is. If rational, then I think us bunch of amateur philosophers in this forum can come up with strong arguments to change your mind. If emotional, then I may be able to provide a few solutions based on experience with my own depressions, which I have for the most part defeated.

Sorry, I don't think I can provide much insight on interpreting your dreams.

You might be interested in the research the University of British Columbia did on existential angst back in 2013. The effect of Tylenol/Acetaminophen on dread, anxiety et al...here Test subjects on Tylenol felt normal, only 'normal' now meant without emotional dread or anxiety.

Fascinating dream ..,plenty of Freudian possibilities.

Hey. I tried your link and it does not seem to work.

Thank you, I edited it, it should work now.

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Oh, dear. I can't imagine how you can fight with nothingness. Become one with it?

It would be hard to make a delinearization between whether it is emotional or rational. I guess, going from some cognitive/biological point of view I would have to wholeheartedly say that it is emotional. Once it became emotional, how one can cope with it can then be treated by rational thoughts. One can then accept it or fight with it, depending on their personality and such.

Rational would be like the philosopher Satre who was convinced that life is meaningless. — Samuel Lacrampe

I find it hard to just go on with such a proposal and say that because one assumes that life is meaningless, including the statement itself, that that would automatically make you depressed or rather professing a depressed attitude.

If emotional, then I may be able to provide a few solutions based on experience with my own depressions, which I have for the most part defeated. — Samuel Lacrampe

Ok, let's assume that it is emotional. How have you tackled this beast?

I didn't mean to suggest that I "fight with it"; it's more like the opposite, ignoring it or peripheralizing it. I am not suggesting that nothingness is a special case at all, I tend to think that all fears and anxieties, when you boil them down, are on account of the possibility of nothingness.

But I guess there is a sense in which anxieties and depression, in fact any kind of negative self-concern, may be overcome, and your life may even be radically transformed, by becoming nothing to yourself (selfless). That is not achieved by many people, though, I would think.

I've read some stuff about pain killers as helping ease the pain; but, someone on the internet rightfully so said that it is better to feel the pain than dampen it with a pain reliever. Kind of like addressing the issue now rather than until the effects of the drug become negligible due to tolerance and such. But... some people might just have too many pain receptors? Who knows?

Don't take this as offensive; but, isn't feeling nothingness a good thing? I would rather feel nothingness rather than angst, anxiety, and anger over incompetence with dealing with depression.

Read the article, it does not deaden the pain, it removes it.

Fascinating. I take Aleve semi-daily. I might switch to Tylenol.

Why would I take offense? You seem to be completely misunderstanding what I have said. By fear of nothingness I mean fear of death, fear of failure, fear of being insignificant, fear of life and oneself being devoid of meaning.

So "angst, anxiety and anger over incompetence" I would say all boil down to fear of nothingness. At least that's way I interpret those things in my own experience.

I don't quite get the logic; but, I understand what you are saying.

Can you say what puzzles you about it?

Well, now that I think about, when one feels anything it is about something, something that they aren't at the moment. I guess nothingness fits in there somewhere.

However, having a lack of desire to live or just lack of desire, in general, seems distinct here. Am I getting you right?

Do you mean that feeling one's own inadequacy could be expressed as a feeling of becoming nothing rather than becoming something?

First check: Do you have stomach-related problems? I recently read a book that talks about how the stomach health plays a critical role in our emotional state, and I can attest from experience. I am talking about evident stomach problems, not the occasional one from drinking too much. If yes, then I would look no further for the cause. I can then provide what I know on this.

If no, then there is another solution I can offer, but will wait for the answer before giving more details on that one.

Fascinating. I take Aleve semi-daily. — Question

Sorry you're troubled by recurrent thoughts of suicide. Think about something else (Seriously... don't dwell on those kinds of thoughts.) While it's good that you are not making plans, it's also not pleasant to have these kinds of thoughts. On the other hand, many people probably think about suicide sometimes, and not always because they feel bad. One hears about suicides, one speculates about it. Do you find the idea of suicide somewhat attractive?

I've also heard that NSAIDs have an impact on moods or depressive feelings. I find NSAIDS, especially ibuprofen and naproxen, to be far more effective for pain relief than aspirin or Tylenol with codeine (which I have taken for severe headaches).

What kind of pain are you taking Aleve (naproxen) for? Aleve, Tylenol, and Advil (Ibuprofen) are all non-steroidal anti-inflammatory drugs (NSAID); NSAIDs work on a chemical level. They block the effects of special enzymes -- specifically Cox-1 and Cox-2 enzymes. These enzymes play a key role in making prostaglandins. By blocking the Cox enzymes, NSAIDs stop your body from making as many prostaglandins. This means less swelling and less pain. — Web MD

How large a dose are you taking? Some people have had significant side effects from NSAIDs involving blood pressure, kidney function, heart function, digestive tract irritation, and so on. The side effects seem to be dose-related--the higher the dose, the more likely the side effects.

Hope brighter thoughts occur to you soon.

If no, then there is another solution I can offer, but will wait for the answer before giving more details on that one. — Samuel Lacrampe

My stomach seems to be fine. Let me know what else I can learn.

Do you find the idea of suicide somewhat attractive? — Bitter Crank

Yes, and that is the problem. I am not sure if suicide can be addressed without the big elephant in the room that is depression.

I thought that I'd get used to it or just learn to cope with persistent depression. I also know the range of depression, where one just doesn't even want to get out of the bed and the other even worse where one tries to do something about it; but, fails and ends up with the same result of being in square one.

How large a dose are you taking? Some people have had significant side effects from NSAIDs involving blood pressure, kidney function, heart function, digestive tract irritation, and so on. The side effects seem to be dose-related--the higher the dose, the more likely the side effects. — Bitter Crank

I take 250 mg of Aleve a day. Sometimes two in the morning. I haven't noticed anything terrible in terms of side effects.

Hope brighter thoughts occur to you soon. — Bitter Crank

Hope so too, just that the depression always seems to loom there besides the other stuff.

Let's go for solution 2 then: I have recently wrote a 20-page document which provides a practical method on how to solve emotional problems. It can be read or downloaded here. It takes about 1 hour to read, and about 3 hours for the full treatment (which does not need to be done all in one go). I will summarize the content here:

• It first gives a rational explanation of what an emotional feeling is, its purpose, and limitations.
• It then differentiates between a legitimate feeling (one that should be there) and an illegitimate feeling (one that should not be there).
• It then establishes a strong parallel between an illegitimate emotional feeling and what is called a 'physical allergy'. Thus 'illegitimate emotional feelings' can be called 'emotional allergies'.
• It then describes a method to eliminate emotional allergies, based on a similar proven method designed to eliminate physical allergies.

It has worked for me and hope it works for others too. I am aware that it takes a bit of homework to get the benefit of the solution, and so if I can provide any help along the way, just let me know.

Wow, thank you, kind Sir, for providing so much information on the topic. I'll give it a read and post whatever questions I have about it.

I have studied CBT in the past. I wonder how much in parallel I may find in your method.

No problem. Good luck.

Ah, well... 250 mg isn't a lot, I don't think. I was taking 2000 a day for a while for arthritis -- yes it helped, but my doc told me to stop taking that much routinely -- save it for really bad pain, he said. So I stopped, and now take maybe 500 mg for bad pain, and it seems to work fine.

You've seen a psychiatrist about depression? Personally, I'd consider persistent suicidal thinking (even without planning) a serious symptom if it were myself. I know that many people have their doubts about anti depressant medication -- as well they should, because any given Rx might not work for any given individual. Just because Zoloft doesn't help, doesn't mean Effexor won't, and just because neither Zoloft and Effexor didn't work, doesn't mean that Seroquel or Cymbalta won't.

I always tell people to see a psychiatrist rather than a family doctor, because--while a family doctor can prescribe antidepressants and might hit on the right one, psychiatrists are usually better at the problem solving process of finding the one that works. They just have more practice at it, and just as people don't go to ophthalmologists for a broken leg, one should go to a psychiatrist for depression.

Major depression is a bigger deal than minor depression, especially if minor depression is rooted in practical solvable problems. CBT alone might work for minor depression; it seems to me that major depression needs more.

I've put up with depression for a long time -- 30 years. Some of the drugs we tried did not help much. There were many years where I just wasn't functioning well. For the last 7 years I've felt pretty good, and part of that was a change in life circumstances. Sometimes those can be engineered, and sometimes not.

I do wish you maximum success in dealing with this difficult stuff.

I read through most of what you wrote and think there is some solid thinking behind the idea of treating some rampant emotions as akin to an involuntary allergic response seen in people with overactive immune systems. However, I don't see what can be done non-pharmaceutically for the majority of cases that are over empathetic or such. It seems to be a problem only pharmaceutical drugs can address. I'll meditate over the whole theory some more and see what I can come up with.

You've seen a psychiatrist about depression? Personally, I'd consider persistent suicidal thinking (even without planning) a serious symptom if it were myself. I know that many people have their doubts about anti depressant medication -- as well they should, because any given Rx might not work for any given individual. Just because Zoloft doesn't help, doesn't mean Effexor won't, and just because neither Zoloft and Effexor didn't work, doesn't mean that Seroquel or Cymbalta won't. — Bitter Crank

Yes, I do see a county psych, which seems to be the best of all psychs one can pick as there's no incentive to overmedicate an individual. I agree that it has helped. I do not think new medication is the thing for me. At the moment Zoloft has been working well and like the equanimity that it causes in me. I see to feel happier on it rather than not. I decided that it's best to give no meds a try and will see if I can taper off the Zoloft if possible. I don't have much trust in psych meds for the matter. I used to be a different person before I was put on some SSRI's and different meds. I think, amicable would be a good word to describe how I was. Nowadays, the numbness from the Zyprexa and Zoloft is just too much. I really want to see how I feel off of meds. It's been so long and the desire to feel again is really appealing.

Major depression is a bigger deal than minor depression, especially if minor depression is rooted in practical solvable problems. CBT alone might work for minor depression; it seems to me that major depression needs more. — Bitter Crank

The depression comes in waves. The most profound aspect that bothers me is a lack of desire or will to do things in my best interest. It's a rather Buddhist type of depression if you care for a laugh, just without the compassion part. I'll be frank, I have a more sinister condition (hate the use of 'disorder') that has negative symptoms that are very hard to target and deal with. I've tried amphetamines in the past, and hence the source of my drug habit (never abused, smoked, plugged, snorted, or IV'd). Rather the habit was fostered as a psychological dependence in terms of using the go pills to get motivated and working. It has worked in the past; but, those Schedule I or II drugs are scheduled for a reason. Ehh, to be honest, I don't think I would have gotten into a UC school if it weren't for Adderall, it's just that potent of a drug. Military physicians were told to give soldiers during WWII amphetamines because it didn't cause them to perform any better; but, believe that they were performing better and be more willing to pull the trigger when needed. Stalin supposedly resorted to alcohol to treat general malaise.

I've put up with depression for a long time -- 30 years. Some of the drugs we tried did not help much. There were many years where I just wasn't functioning well. For the last 7 years I've felt pretty good, and part of that was a change in life circumstances. Sometimes those can be engineered, and sometimes not. — Bitter Crank

I've whined and complained in the past here and over at the old PF about living with mummy, working, etc. I've kind of passed that hump and gotten used to being company to a person that truly loves you. It was growing pains. I have doodled with the idea of changing environments and going to some European country; but, working as a janitor or such doesn't appeal me since I still have the door open to go back to UC and complete that degree. It's just that I don't see how I'll get the job done (and I know it needs to be done) if I keep on feeling this way while the clock is ticking mercilessly away. A rather pathetic situation to be in not beliving in yourself. Low self-esteem factors in; but, I'm not a fan of the esteem movement. People have had it harder and gotten through worse and came out on top despite such circumstances. I just suffer from a lack of... whatever - to want to get the job done. Getting off the numbing pills and stuff seem to me to be the right direction forward. I mean, if ya can't feel anything then you're kinda incapacitated by default.

How do you deal with your 'monster'? Have any of you defeated it? — Question

I have occasionally occuring suicidal thoughts. For me it's more of a thought of "I'd rather not be alive. I'd rather not exist". But it hasn't yet manifested into any actual actions. I've always felt that I'm too selfish to kill myself; I'm too concerned with physical pleasures, with feelings and emotions, with my own ego, no matter how toxic these things are.

I've been struggling with minor and major depression over the past 14 years or so. The major depression has increased recently, to the point of spending days at a time (when I'm off work) doing nothing. My sleep schedule is totally out of whack. I sometimes abuse several addictions. Addiction in relation to depression and suicidal thoughts seems to be a complex relationship, as far as I can tell; one isn't necessarily the cause of the other. They're interdependent.

You speak of a monster in a lake; my monster often manifests in dreams as a wolf or similar beast lurking beneath the floorboards, or waiting outside. I also used to have a recurring dream of a massive serpent, the size of a tree, on a twilit archipelago-esque island (lol...?). But the serpent was beautiful, not terrifying. There are other dreams that I connect to depression; I could go on. Many different recurring scenes where I'm totally alone walking through a landscape (the only person in the world). I also have sleep paralysis.

From a philosophical perspective, I think it's important to recognize that there's a state in which a human person may deem it better to end one's life, than to continue with life. There's a mental or spiritual state or whatever where the individual decides that life is no longer worth living. Looking at this as a mental "sickness" is a good starting point, to deal with the problem; to begin talking about the issue. But I don't think it's the end point. A physical sickness only exists within the world of physical reality, but a mental or emotional or spiritual sickness doesn't carry over properly; the metaphor doesn't carry fully over. I think this is significant because it bucks the typical materialist/scientistic trend of assuming that survival, or pleasure, or avoidance of pain or discomfort, or whatever, is the ultimate. It's not. And of course, ultimately, the reason this is important...is that life is worth living. Otherwise, the distinction wouldn't even matter; otherwise, the philosophical significance of suicide would be nil. If life did not, in fact, matter, then no one would even be asking the question. Indeed, the suicides of countless people attest to the very fact that life is meaningful. This is key. Clinical psychology can't get us to this point.

Picture this bleak lake where a giant sea monster resides. In this lake, the monster, which looks most like a giant octopus resides. I figured out a way to defeat this monster octopus. I can't fight with it because it is too strong. The only way to defeat it is to wait for the water from the lake to evaporate until the sea monster can't thrive on anything anymore. This can take a long time; but, I don't see how else to beat it. You might be laughing at this point; but, I trust what my dreams tell me, and this is something that stuck.

How do you deal with your 'monster'? Have any of you defeated it? — Question

Question, thank you for sharing, I have a deep respect for those that feel strong enough to talk about such personal subjects as one may eventually raise the subconscious horrors hidden deep within them and start to make sense of it, articulate it so that you become the one in control.

And that is the point, this lack of control, subject to your fears that you are 'stuck' and spend your entire life hiding from this monster as you wait for the water to evaporate, this monster that you have never seen, that you seem certain exists and yet has never actually threatened you, taking away the time given to you until you find yourself a whole lifetime later as having never actually lived, old and frail as you crawl out of the cave to witness this monumental moment to find the only dead in the middle of the lake is the dead version of a younger you that never lived.

The only monster is fear. If you take the chance to defeat this monster, a chance to think of proper strategies and possibilities, a chance that may mean death, what exactly is the difference between that type of death to the one of waiting your entire life as you hide fearfully? Such indifference to your own existence is death, perhaps a much more horrendous death than being killed by a monster.

Sometimes when we are faced with adversity, when we are faced with vicious people, people lying and deceiving, slandering and hating and yet all the while boasting and pretending that they are good people, the idea of ever defeating such people is just impossible. You end up with a choice of either becoming a monster yourself or feeling defeated. “Beware that, when fighting monsters, you yourself do not become a monster... for when you gaze long into the abyss. The abyss gazes also into you."

You will find that we seem to be completely oblivious that there were no choices in the first place. I used to dream of running away from leopards, always fearfully running and hiding, and indeed comparatively in my life that was exactly what I was doing. I soon found the courage to see that these leopards were not leopards at all, but rather just a horde of feral cats. Not easy to simply casually walk past, but certainly not life-threatening that I realised I imagined their power. I wasted years on an imaginary fear. It was not them, but me, and so I defeated the monsters by having the courage to love and care for myself despite what other have done to me. It is choice, the choice to live and take control, to stop running and turn and face the illusion that fear causes us to believe in. When I eliminated the toxic people from my life, set goals for myself, planned ahead and lived by my moral code and principles without relying on anyone, there has been nothing but good things happening that consistently gets better. I have some great close friends, an amazing job, I travel and write and always on adventures.

A small octopus can appear as a frightening, giant monster octopus, to a child. Is this childish fear still within you, controlling you that you feel disillusioned, subject to a power that you cannot grasp within yourself and so you feel defeated. The courage to take control of your life by getting to the root cause of this fear is not easy, it is just as threatening as a giant monster octopus, but doing so you stand a chance of living. This chance is much better than dying after a whole lifetime of fear without never actually having lived, as long as you are safe.