these systems are ultimately fictions that we have created to explain why we must do anything. — schopenhauer1
How does one escape metanarratives? A certain kind of 'strong pomo' tends to threaten itself with cancellation. My theory is that we are wired or programmed to perform some version of 'the hero with a thousand faces.' But what the hero myth of the person with the theory of the hero myth ? Self-knowledge, right ? I know and confess that I'm caught in this game of playing the hero, and that's how I play the hero. Does this relate at all to your own thesis and the position it puts you in ? If you inspire agreement and build community, does that not put another brick on the tower for Moloch ? — green flag
I know and confess that I'm caught in this game of playing the hero, and that's how I play the hero. — green flag
This is a tragic break in nature, as Zapffe clearly laid out — schopenhauer1
Yes !It is why we are exiled from the Garden of Eden ("being"). We are always but a virtual self of a self, but never being a self. — schopenhauer1
Stay away from this guy. Throw yourself into adventure. — jgill
It is something I can freely choose to buy into everyday. — schopenhauer1
However, I can decide to continue on anyways, because the "reason" (fiction/narrative) is that 'I must do this so that I can make money. Money is this thing to buy the products and services of other people's labor'. However, every one of those conceptualizations and all of that narrative is indeed made up from cultural cues that I have (chosen to?) internalize. — schopenhauer1
However, unlike other animals, humans have the ability to separate our behaviors from our survival needs. We can choose not to work because we don't like it, we can choose to commit suicide, or we can engage in a range of other behaviors that have nothing to do with our basic survival needs. — schopenhauer1
Despite our general fear of pain and seeking of pleasure, we still must write narratives of motivation. Our behaviors are not fixed for these end goals but are tied to the conceptualizing-human mind in social relations to others. Every single day, every minute even, we have to "buy into" motivating ourselves with narratives...
...Additionally, humans generally fear pain, displeasure, and the angst of boredom, while seeking pleasures to distract from this angst. Aesthetic and non-physical pleasures become a built-in mechanism to deal with this fear. However, this also creates a need for fictions to explain why we must do anything, — schopenhauer1
So my theory, along with Zapffe's, is more about our essential "break" with nature. We use narratives/fictions to create reasons which give us motivations. That's how a conceptualizing animal with recursive language capacity parses and synthesizes the world- one in which social arrangements are paramount. — schopenhauer1
Friend of mine tried to express the ecstasy of becoming a father. We've lost touch. He's got three now, a hard working man with the picket fence and kids he always wanted, even a wife who stays home.
To me it's more like people find some role (hero myth, ideology) that feels right enough and keep getting out of bed every morning, largely to avoid losing a job, a lover, a home. We cling to what keeps us safe and comfortable. This is to be expected. Moloch demands it ! Those whose source code doesn't have them building a nice little web end up replicating less or not at all. — green flag
Is "these systems are ultimately fictions" itself a fiction ? Even the most negative ideology may help the species or the tribe as a whole contribute to the heat death. Antinatalism is the hand of god. It is the thought of genocidal violence taken to the last extreme. It is will-to-power. Does it not cry out after all for the coming of heat death ? — green flag
I think this is an artificial distinction. Animals can also behave in ways that don't directly impact basic survival needs. They play, wander around exploring, and spend a lot of time napping. They hang out with their families. I'm not saying animals are the same as humans, but you are exaggerating the differences. — T Clark
It is possible to act without intervention by narratives. Much of the point of Taoism is learning how to act spontaneously in line with our true natures. It is called "acting without acting." It is understood as the true source of human motivation. Narratives interfere with this rather than supporting it. Narratives don't generally promote action, they are more able to put the brakes on, to stop us from doing what our natural inclinations indicate. A lot of narratives are also post hoc additions put on to explain to ourselves why we did what we already did. — T Clark
I'll say it again. I don't think this is true, or at least not necessarily true. It's "seems to me" psychology/philosophy and I don't think it represents how people actually feel or behave. — T Clark
We've been through this before. You tend to conflate what animals do and what humans do, and I don't even want to bother pointing out the difference in an animal that can use recursive linguistics to tell stories about itself and then buy into those stories, versus what animals do. — schopenhauer1
I just don't find this Taoist stuff compelling. In fact, if it was natural, we wouldn't need Toaism or anything related. We would simply BE. But we aren't. And so there in fact IS something in the way of that. I am saying that contrary to what dichotomy fiction you are purporting on me, the animals are living Tao. Humans are never doing so, and are always trying to get there. Hence TaoISM. — schopenhauer1
You keep saying that, but here you are using language, having a narrative of being angry and upset. Think about it. — schopenhauer1
I'm not angry or upset at all. I went back and reread my post. It was polite, respectful, and responsive. I tried to make sure I left out any provocative language. I've always tried to treat your ideas with respect, even though I strongly disagree with them. It's true, all verbal and written communication is narrative, but communication is not motivation, which was the primary substance of your OP. — T Clark
Freedom-responsibility is a beautiful ideal. Do people really choose ? — green flag
Additionally, humans generally fear pain, displeasure, and the angst of boredom, while seeking pleasures to distract from this angst. Aesthetic and non-physical pleasures become a built-in mechanism to deal with this fear. However, this also creates a need for fictions to explain why we must do anything, which is a tragic break in nature, as philosopher Peter Zapffe argued. — schopenhauer1
Motivation, as in why you continue to do something you might not otherwise want to do. The thing is, you are going to claim you have never done something you never wanted to do. Is that right? — schopenhauer1
This is startlingly condescending. I think it shows your lack of respect for people who, apparently unlike you, find satisfaction in daily life, family, work, and other aspects of our humanity. — T Clark
Of course I've done things I didn't want to do. Jobs that need to be done are not necessarily enjoyable. All worthwhile activities include aspects that are unpleasant. I don't see that as unfair or unreasonable. It's just how the world works. — T Clark
I ought to be patient with you, because you are talking to a projection. Seriously, though, your theatrics are misdirected. I'm glad for my friend and his happiness. We just lost touch. Such is life. It's just how the world works.
I don't owe you this clarification. It's a belatedly tolerant response to your indulgent misreading. — green flag
Exactly, and you are LITERALLY displaying the point I am making in real time. — schopenhauer1
Of course I've done things I didn't want to do. Jobs that need to be done are not necessarily enjoyable. All worthwhile activities include aspects that are unpleasant. I don't see that as unfair or unreasonable. It's just how the world works. — T Clark
That's not true. Your OP was about how people use narratives to provide motivation. What does that have to do with me saying:
Of course I've done things I didn't want to do. Jobs that need to be done are not necessarily enjoyable. All worthwhile activities include aspects that are unpleasant. I don't see that as unfair or unreasonable. It's just how the world works.
— T Clark — T Clark
Why is "it's just how the world works" connected with you doing a job you would not want to do? — schopenhauer1
This is where you and I always run into a wall. It's not unfair that life includes a bit of pain and unpleasantness. — T Clark
Why do you do the dishes even if you don't like it? — schopenhauer1
I can't complete that without doing the part I don't enjoy. — T Clark
that the enemy, finally seen, turns out to be us — green flag
Stay away from this guy. Throw yourself into adventure. — jgill
Zapffe was a climber ! — green flag
Sorry. That's enough. I'm all done. — T Clark
I think this is an oversimplification of our motivations. We are social mammals. We want contact and intimacy with other creatures, especially our own species. We are curious, we wonder, even as newborns, about the sources of sounds and other sensory phenomena. These motivations are not driven merely by pleasure and pain, in fact we will aim towards painful experiences to satisfy our curiosity and social desires. All this in place before any grand narrative to distract or give meaning is put in place. In fact any belief system needs to engage with these motivations - and often channels them, judges them, gives rules to restrict them. It's not that your post is incorrect. These belief systems do do the things you say, but there is tremendous motivation in place before these systems are plopped on top of them.Additionally, humans generally fear pain, displeasure, and the angst of boredom, while seeking pleasures to distract from this angst. — schopenhauer1
Humans have these things regardless. They don't need a theism or set of morals or idealogy to have a sense of purpose and meaning. Given that we are always exposed to belief systems it may be hard to tease out what causes what, but a look at children can see that one has little need of any -ism to leap out of bed, demand things, express curiosity in a wide variety of ways and deliberately engage with others.In order to deal with this tension, humans have created various systems of belief and value that provide us with a sense of purpose and meaning. — schopenhauer1
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