• Tzeentch
    3.3k
    I'm sure all have heard of the recent incident where a Chinese balloon was shot down over the United States. Supposedly it was a spy balloon.

    Four Flying Objects Shot Down By US Jets

    First Look at Chinese Spy Balloon

    Seperate but also related:

    Chinese satellite fires green lasers over Hawaii

    Since then several more objects have been shot down, likely all of which similar or related. The news article mentions one of the objects to have carried a "payload the size of a small jet airliner". It's hard to tell exactly what that means, but they made it sound ominous to say the least.


    There was no thread up about this yet, but I think it deserves one.

    We're on the verge of entering a period of major geopolitical strife, in which Russia and China will likely band together against the U.S. to challenge its position as hegemon.

    Russia and US/NATO are already embroiled in a semi-proxy conflict in Ukraine, and the flashpoint in Taiwan can turn into a direct clash between Chinese and US forces at any time.

    While this is going, we have this incident of several unidentified "objects" being shot down over the U.S. and in other places, all of which seem connected to China.


    First off I'd like to point out that this is a major international incident. Even if "balloons" might sound somewhat benign, these objects illegally invaded U.S. airspace. That is potentially a serious threat to a nation's national security, especially since the first balloon penetrated deep into U.S. territory and was sighted over Montana which holds a large amount of U.S. nuclear missile silos.

    It's worth noting that during most of the Cold War, invasions this deep into the other's airspace were quite rare, and generally avoided. The last time a confirmed hostile aircraft was shot down over U.S. soil was on december 7th 1941.


    What is strange about these events is that, while invasions of another nation's air space are highly illegal and not very common, reconnaissance fly-overs with satellites, balloons and planes that fly on the edge of space (above national air space) are nothing new, albeit still somewhat controversial.

    China certainly has the means to carry out such surveillance.

    So the question on my mind is:

    - If China has the means to carry out its reconnaissance in a legal manner in space, why would it invade U.S. air space?


    The most logical answer seems to be that this was a mistake on the part of the Chinese. For whatever reason this balloon may have lost altitude and ended up somewhere it wasn't supposed to.

    However, now that multiple more objects have been shot down, the chance that all of this is just a Chinese "fluke" blown out of proportion by the U.S. is far less likely, and the act seems more deliberate.


    What does the forum make of this?
  • Agent Smith
    9.5k
    Hi-tech can be defeated/confused by low-tech. If I whip out a knife at a guy pointing a gun at me, he'll let his guard down, hopefully long enough to allow me to sever his jugular! :lol:
  • javi2541997
    5k
    The most logical answer seems to be that this was a mistake on the part of the Chinese. For whatever reason this balloon may have lost altitude and ended up somewhere it wasn't supposed to.

    However, now that multiple more objects have been shot down, the chance that all of this is just a Chinese "fluke" blown out of proportion by the U.S. is far less likely, and the act seems more deliberate.
    Tzeentch

    I see two different perspectives regarding this issue and I try to understand the problem with the purest objective opinion:

    1. I also consider that China has committed a mistake for not controlling their "balloons" and the explanation provided by Chinese political affairs was weird. If I remember correctly, I think they said that the balloon was just flowing around for meteorological purposes. Nonetheless, according to the experts, the distance of altitude was closer to the ground so the argument is senseless.
    Here we can imagine that China is lying and probably they are using the balloons for spy causes

    2. Yet, I think Western world is obsessed with China and everything which comes from them. I bet that if the balloon was European, the response from White House would have been different.
    On the other hand, it is quite hypocrite when USA claims that a political actor is spying them when they are literally spying the rest of the world too.

    There is a diplomatic conflict because none of them trust each other... they are super power who want to control the world and the tension is always in the atmosphere (like the chinese balloons)
  • unenlightened
    8.7k
    My imaginary friend told me that there is always a load of balloony junk floating about and generally nobody cares, and they turn down the radar sensitivity. Then thiis big high-level thing appears like an extra moon, and is obviously way too low and visible, and everyone puts their tin-foil hats on, and turns the sensitivity up to max, and discover some more junk.

    Therefore, China is bad, for filling the media with talk about their broken junk.

    But I suspect my imaginary friend is making it up, because the Chinese are cunning and sinister.
  • Art48
    459
    I don’t question the facts: that Chinese spy balloons were shot down over the U.S. I question all the attention the story is getting. It seems to me to be the usual scare-mongering meant to keep MAGA people (and maybe the rest of us) on edge and worried, to divert attention from genuine issues and threats to well-being—for example, the lack of universal healthcare in the U.S. to name one issue; the price of some prescription drugs is another.
  • T Clark
    13k
    We're on the verge of entering a period of major geopolitical strife, in which Russia and China will likely band together against the U.S. to challenge its position as hegemon.Tzeentch

    I think we're already in that period. I'm very worried about where the war in Ukraine will lead. On the other hand, I think the idea that Russia and China will somehow "band together against the U.S. to challenge its position as hegemon," is wrongheaded on three counts. 1) Most importantly, the US's position as "hegemon" is going to over soon whether we like it or not. That's not because of China and Russia in particular but more because other countries, some former third world, are taking a larger role in the world. 2) That's probably a good thing, both for the world and the US. 3) Russia and China are in no position to become hegemons. Russia is very weak except for nuclear weapons. China is still a limited thread, although it is growing. 4) Neither Ukraine nor Taiwan is worth risking a wider war with other nuclear powers. Hey, wait. That's more than three. I could probably come up with more.

    First off I'd like to point out that this is a major international incident.Tzeentch

    This is something I've wondered about. I'm not saying it's not important, but why such a big deal? We all already have spy satellites, we all know the other is trying to look at us.

    It's worth noting that during most of the Cold War, invasions this deep into the other's airspace were quite rare, and generally avoided.Tzeentch

    This is not true. Look up "U2 incident 1960."

    What is strange about these events is that, while invasions of another nation's air space are highly illegal and not very common, reconnaissance fly-overs with satellites, balloons and planes that fly on the edge of space (above national air space) are nothing new, albeit still somewhat controversial.Tzeentch

    I found this interesting article on the legality of the situation. I'm not qualified to judge it's contents, but it seems reasonable.

    https://sites.duke.edu/lawfire/2023/02/05/guest-post-the-chinese-balloon-shoot-down-incident-and-the-law-some-observations/

    If China has the means to carry out its reconnaissance in a legal manner in space, why would it invade U.S. air space?Tzeentch

    Good question.
  • Tzeentch
    3.3k
    I think we're already in that period. I'm very worried about where the war in Ukraine will lead. On the other hand, I think the idea that Russia and China will somehow "band together against the U.S. to challenge its position as hegemon," is wrongheaded on three counts. 1) Most importantly, the US's position as "hegemon" is going to over soon whether we like it or not. That's not because of China and Russia in particular but more because other countries, some former third world, are taking a larger role in the world. 2) That's probably a good thing, both for the world and the US. 3) Russia and China are in no position to become hegemons. Russia is very weak except for nuclear weapons. China is still a limited thread, although it is growing. 4) Neither Ukraine nor Taiwan is worth risking a wider war with other nuclear powers. Hey, wait. That's more than three. I could probably come up with more.T Clark

    I see all four points as perfectly compatible with my statement, so I'm not sure why you believe it is wrongheaded. Though I do believe that Russia and China will be the primary players challenging the US. Countries like India and Brazil seem less likely to do so, but will also challenge US hegemony indirectly by simply acting more as independent actors.

    This is not true. Look up "U2 incident 1960."T Clark

    U2 reconnaissance aircraft flew on the edge of space, far above what is normally considered "national air space". So technically the U.S. did not invade Soviet air space in 1960.

    You'll find a handful of air space violations happened during the Cold War, but exceptions confirm the rule as they say.

    I maintain that these are quite uncommon, and at least overt violations are and were avoided because they tended to end very badly for the pilots involved.

    I'm not saying it's not important, but why such a big deal?T Clark

    The first reason would be, because it's illegal under international law, just like violating national waters is illegal. Both are essentially breaches of a nation's sovereignty.

    The second is that a nation's air space (especially that of superpowers) is heavily surveilled for purposes of national defense and security. All the missile defense systems in the world are not going to help if the enemy launches its attack when it's already ontop of one's cities.

    During peace time the risk of an attack is negligible. However in a period like this, where large-scale conflict has already broken out in Europe and can break out tomorrow in the Pacific, an incident like this is not so innocent anymore.

    Those balloons could have carried anything. Nuclear devices, biological agents, you name it. And the ballons apparently were carrying some sort of payload. I haven't heard any update regarding the nature, though.

    Another factor was that the balloon was spotted over Montana where the U.S. houses a large portion of its nuclear silos. A nation's nuclear deterrent is about as classified as it gets, so having a potential enemy collect information about it is alarming to say the least.

    I found this interesting article on the legality of the situation. I'm not qualified to judge it's contents, but it seems reasonable.T Clark

    Interesting to read.

    The Chinese claim that the balloon(s?) invaded sovereign air space by mistake seems plausible, though also a bit predictable.

    More interesting was how the act of shooting down the balloons was viewed, as the Pentagon apparently on several occasions made statements that would imply the shooting down of the balloon may have been unlawful.
  • T Clark
    13k
    I see all four points as perfectly compatible with my statement,Tzeentch

    I guess I misinterpreted you. I thought you were saying that the US's loss of hegemony would be a bad thing. That assumption on my part was what I was responding to.

    U2 reconnaissance aircraft flew on the edge of space, far above what is normally considered "national air space". So technically the U.S. did not invade Soviet air space in 1960.Tzeentch

    According to Wikipedia, the U2 flies at a maximum altitude of about 70,000 feet and the edge of space is defined as about 300,000 feet.

    Speaking of the U2, it amazes me that it is still be used now almost 70 years after it was first built. It still looks all cool and futuristic. B52s are still being used too.

    The first reason would be, because it's illegal under international law, just like violating national waters is illegal. Both are essentially breaches of a nation's sovereignty.Tzeentch

    Sure. That's why it's an international incident. I still don't see why it is a major incident.

    The second is that a nation's air space (especially that of superpowers) is heavily surveilled for purposes of national defense and security. All the missile defense systems in the world are not going to help if the enemy launches its attack when it's already ontop of one's cities.Tzeentch

    That doesn't seem like a plausible scenario.

    However in a period like this, where large-scale conflict has already broken out in Europe and can break out tomorrow in the Pacific, an incident like this is not so innocent anymore.Tzeentch

    I didn't say it was innocent, I said I don't understand why it is such a big deal.

    More interesting was how the act of shooting down the balloons was viewed, as the Pentagon apparently on several occasions made statements that would imply the shooting down of the balloon may have been unlawful.Tzeentch

    Yes, I found that interesting too, although the consensus of the people referenced in the article is that it was legal. I always assumed it was and I wasn't suggesting that it shouldn't have been.
  • Tzeentch
    3.3k
    According to Wikipedia, the U2 flies at a maximum altitude of about 70,000 feet and the edge of space is defined as about 300,000 feet.T Clark

    What exactly is considered national air space is up for debate, but the U.S. defines Class A controlled air space as the space from 18,000 feet above MSL up to and including 60,000 feet above MSL.

    A good case could be made for extending national air space all the way into space, though.

    Whatever definition is being used probably depends on whose spy planes have just been caught and at what altitude they were flying.

    I said I don't understand why it is such a big deal.T Clark

    I don't live in the U.S., so I couldn't tell you how it feels when a nation you could be at war with tomorrow was performing reconnaissance over your nation's nuclear missile silos, but I don't imagine it feels very pleasant.

    Just to repeat of a small snippet I included in the OP, the last time a confirmed hostile aircraft was shot down over U.S. soil, the U.S. entered WW2.

    Obviously this cannot be compared to Pearl Harbour, but it goes to show that an incident such as this one is quite extraordinary.
  • T Clark
    13k
    A good case could be made for extending national air space all the way into space, though.Tzeentch

    Do you mean 300,000 feet or indefinitely.

    I think just about everyone would disagree with that.

    an incident such as this one is quite extraordinary.Tzeentch

    I guess it's obvious from what I've said earlier, but I don't necessarily agree. That's why I was asking for an explanation.
  • frank
    14.6k
    In the assorted incidents category, if you're curious how much it would cost to get Obamacare, there are numerous scams that head the Google search which are just fishing to sell people insurance. That's annoying.
  • Hanover
    12.1k
    In a world with all sorts of complex methods of data gathering, sending over a balloon seems pretty kindergarten. It's like in football if I wanted to know what plays you were going to run, I come up with the great plan of sending over one of my players to stand in your huddle with his ear to the quarterback. I'm thinking my counter-intelligence might be good enough that I'll either block you from hearing it or I'll tell you a bunch of wrong shit to fuck you up.

    My point here is that if the Chinese came up with the grand idea that they were going to hold a camera over Montana and think they were going to see something that airplanes, radar, satellites, Google maps, and passersbys don't already see and that was going to give them some advantage, they aren't quite the threat we thought them to be. My guess is that they got a disk full of pictures of fake missle silos, nonsense data transmitted to them, and maybe some pictures of military guys flipping them off.

    If I were the Chinese, I would send over a prostitute and have her get a high ranking official to tell her all sorts of stuff. That would definitely work on me. What wouldn't work on me is the balloon trick because I'd close my top secret notebook when the balloon shadow drew over my backyard so that they couldn't see all that I wrote.
  • Tzeentch
    3.3k
    My point here is that if the Chinese came up with the grand idea that they were going to hold a camera over Montana and think they were going to see something that airplanes, radar, satellites, Google maps, and passersbys don't already see and that was going to give them some advantage, they aren't quite the threat we thought them to be.Hanover

    I agree, and we pretty much know for a fact that the Chinese are smarter than that, because they have all the capacity they need to perform reconnaissance from space.

    This is part of the weirdness I tried to draw attention to.

    At the same time, the Chinese weather balloon excuse doesn't sound that convincing either, would you agree?
  • Hanover
    12.1k
    At the same time, the Chinese weather balloon excuse doesn't sound that convincing either, would you agree?Tzeentch

    I don't understand any of it other than it was some sort of provocative act to see what the US response would be. I also wasn't aware that sending aircraft across your adversaries' borders wouldn't be expected to result in it being shot down. That is, I don't understand the Chinese anger toward the shooting, and you would have expected that if it were a true accident, they would have suggested ways to return it or to have approved it being shot down.
  • Tzeentch
    3.3k
    Kyiv says it shot down Russian balloons over Ukraine's capital

    It seems other nations are following the example set by the U.S. and guarding their air space more tenaciously.

    An alternative theory could be that, sort of in line with 's point, that the balloons have been there for a long time, possibly with full knowledge of the U.S., but it chose this moment in time to shoot them down to send a message.

    Another possibility is that these balloons have indeed been there for a long time, but somehow managed to slip under the U.S. radar systems through some use of technology, and that they have now figured out how to spot them.
  • T Clark
    13k
    My point here is that if the Chinese came up with the grand idea that they were going to hold a camera over Montana and think they were going to see something that airplanes, radar, satellites, Google maps, and passersbys don't already see and that was going to give them some advantage, they aren't quite the threat we thought them to be.Hanover

    It's my understanding that the balloon included antennas for electronic surveillance. Perhaps that's not something that can be done from space. Which isn't to say I don't share your bemusement about the seeming rinky-dinkness of the Chinese balloons.

    "Bemusement" is a more intellectual, sophisticated word for "confusion." Alternatively, it is a word for a more intellectual, sophisticated confusion.

    "Rinky-dinkness" is a more amusing word for a lack of sophistication. Alternatively, it is a word for a more amusing lack of sophistication.
  • Hanover
    12.1k
    "Bemusement" is a more intellectual, sophisticated word for "confusion." Alternatively, it is a word for a more intellectual, sophisticated confusion.

    "Rinky-dinkness" is a more amusing word for a lack of sophistication. Alternatively, it is a word for a more amusing lack of sophistication.
    T Clark

    Like any good document, you have included a definitions section. Thank you.

    In other news, I got my wife a balloon yesterday that said "Happy Valentine's Day." It's hovering around my kitchen.
  • Hanover
    12.1k
    Reminds me of a song. I post the punk version because I like it better than the original.

  • T Clark
    13k
    I got my wife a balloon yesterday that said "Happy Valentine's Day.Hanover

    That could explain a lot. Perhaps the Chinese were just wishing us a Happy Valentines Day.
  • jorndoe
    3.3k
    The balloonery apparently isn't just over North America.

    Balloon sighted over Latin America is from China, Beijing says
    — Al Jazeera · Feb 6, 2023

    No, not aliens. :D

    Are they spy balloons or aliens? What we know about the flying objects spotted in US, Canada and even China
    — Roshneesh Kmaneck · Firstpost · Feb 13, 2023
    Why We're Suddenly Spotting Spy Balloons
    — Sophie Bushwick · Scientific American · Feb 14, 2023

    There’s probably at least 100 [large balloons] in the air, on any given day. It’s not very stealthy. The payload underneath it was about the size of a small plane, so it … looks like a plane on the radar. Previously, they had things set up to filter out what they would describe as clutter on the radar. These newer ones are the result of a heightened sense of caution. … [They] modified the algorithm that they use to determine whether something is of interest or not, and so things that have been there all along are now popping up for the first time. Because the wind speed varies at different altitudes, they can use that to basically change direction and steer to a certain amount. And you could, in theory, put some rudders and propellers on a balloon. With propellers, then I think you could overcome some of the wind and you could move from side to side. … You can imagine designing a trajectory; you’re mostly going from west to east, but you’re able to go north-south to some extent if you have some kind of propulsion system. The recent UAP reports that came out in January … they listed a whole bunch of new UAPs, and the vast majority of the ones that they identified were balloons, simply because it’s such a common thing to be in the air. In a military context, you never want to rule anything out—which is why they haven’t ruled out aliens. Out of an abundance of caution, you really want to consider all the possibilities.Mick West

    Other-balloon-tracking.jpg?quality=85&w=400
    Source (Feb 6, 2023)

    A bit puzzling.
  • unenlightened
    8.7k
    [They] modified the algorithm that they use to determine whether something is of interest or not, and so things that have been there all along are now popping up for the first time.Mick West

    That's what my imaginary friend said!
  • Isaac
    10.3k


    And yet...

    https://fair.org/home/media-spy-balloon-obsession-a-gift-to-china-hawks/

    Despite this uncertainty, US media overwhelmingly interpreted the Pentagon’s conjecture as fact. The New York Times (2/2/23) reported that “the United States has detected what it says is a Chinese surveillance balloon,” only to call the device “the spy balloon”—without attributive language—within the same article. Similar evolution happened at CNBC, where the description shifted from “suspected Chinese spy balloon” (2/6/23) to simply “Chinese spy balloon” (2/6/23). The Guardian once bothered to place “spy balloon” in quotation marks (2/5/23), but soon abandoned that punctuation (2/6/23).

    Given that media had no proof of either explanation, it might stand to reason that outlets would give each possibility—spy balloon vs. weather balloon—equal attention. Yet media were far more interested in lending credence to the US’s official narrative than to that of China.
    NYT: A Brief History of Spying With Balloons

    Of course, governments have also been using balloons to track weather for more than a century—but that didn’t merit a New York Times article (2/3/23).

    In coverage following the initial reports, media devoted much more time to speculating on the possibility of espionage than of scientific research. The New York Times (2/3/23), for instance, educated readers about the centuries-long wartime uses of surveillance balloons. Similar pieces ran at The Hill (2/3/23), Reuters (2/2/23) and the Guardian (2/3/23). Curiously, none of these outlets sought to provide an equivalent exploration of the history of weather balloons after the Chinese Foreign Affairs statement, despite the common and well-established use of balloons for meteorological purposes.

    Even information that could discredit the “spy balloon” theory was used to bolster it. Citing the Pentagon, outlets almost universally acknowledged that any surveillance capacity of the balloon would be limited. This fact apparently didn’t merit reconsideration of the “spy balloon” theory; instead, it was treated as evidence that China was an espionage amateur. As NPR’s Geoff Brumfiel (2/3/23) stated:

    The Pentagon says it believes this spy balloon doesn’t significantly improve China’s ability to gather intelligence with its satellites.

    One of Brumfiel’s guests, a US professor of international studies, called the balloon a “floating intelligence failure,” adding that China would only learn, in Brumfiel’s words, at most “a little bit” from the balloon. That this might make it less likely to be a spy balloon and more likely, as China said, a weather balloon did not seem to occur to NPR.

    Reuters (2/4/23), meanwhile, called the use of the balloon “a bold but clumsy espionage tactic.” Among its uncritically quoted “security expert” sources: former White House national security adviser and inveterate hawk John Bolton, who scoffed at the balloon for its ostensibly low-tech capabilities.

    Funny. It's almost as if the US media are trying to promote conflict. But surely that couldn't be the case...

    Let's just hope they don't turn their conflict-biased warmongering attention to Ukraine any time soon! What with that being a completely one-sided conflict in which the US are acting out of nothing but honourable intent, the last thing we need is a compliant media stoking the flames. Thankfully though media reporting has so far been completely accurate and only coincidentally supports the US government entirely just because they happen to be right. Phew!
  • Agent Smith
    9.5k
    I have mixed feelings about the fact that these objects weren't alien spaceships. US has the largest spy apparatus in the world. Who do we think we're fooling?
  • Wayfarer
    20.7k
    That Americans should worry a lot more about the fact that there are more guns than people in their populace. They're much more likely to die from that, than any mysterious floating objects.
  • Agent Smith
    9.5k
    :smile: El Rachum!
  • Tzeentch
    3.3k


    Some of China's response to the incident. It seems fairly level-headed.

    It will be interesting to see what countermeasures Beijing is talking about here.

    I'm fairly certain that if they shoot so much as a paper plane with an American flag out of the sky there will be a riot.
  • ssu
    8k
    We're on the verge of entering a period of major geopolitical strife, in which Russia and China will likely band together against the U.S. to challenge its position as hegemon.Tzeentch
    China is correct to keep it's distance from Russia.

    In fact for China to get closer to Russia just then alienates European countries and pushes them to have similar stance as the US has against China. For a long time European countries didn't have the aggressive stance that President Trump had against China. Russia will have to sell it's natural resources to China in any case now, so there's no reason to get behind the disastrous decisions that Putin made when invading head on Ukraine. There's far better ways to be a counterweight to the US, like with the BRICS.

    The US always will have these fears and angry fits about a potential competitor taking it's lead position. In the 1980's the fear was Japan, now it's China. Far better for the Chinese communists to keep their cool when it comes to the US and get their economy in order. Bullying at your neighbors will just make things worse. The worst thing possible to do is to use a Sino-US conflict as a distraction to domestic economic problems. Previous Chinese leaders were far better in this.

    Australia, or the Chinese - Australian relations, are a great example of this. Covid-19 was (and is) a disaster for China. That really put a strain on Australian - Chinese relations as Australia demanded an independent inquiry on covid and then China decided to take retaliatory measures with sudden tariffs and bans on Australian exports. This likely drove Australia to the AUKUS agreement.
  • Agent Smith
    9.5k
    Just what we needed, oui mon ami? Another mishap.
  • Tzeentch
    3.3k
    Edward Snowden's take on the significance of the balloon incident: engineered panic to divert attention from more important goings-on.

    Edward Snowden claims U.S. using balloons to create panic
  • T Clark
    13k
    An interesting article. Looks like the downed balloon in Canada had nothing to do with China.

    https://www.rtl-sdr.com/the-us-airforce-may-have-shot-down-an-amateur-radio-pico-balloon-over-canada/
  • Alkis Piskas
    2.1k
    Hi-tech can be defeated/confused by low-techAgent Smith
    No-tech can also do that. Jackie Chan has demonstrated this many times. :grin:
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