Unfortunately, speculation about the nature of existence and metaphysics, which once held great appeal, has declined in popularity and remains a niche pursuit. — schopenhauer1

Wait a minute. When did "speculation about the nature of existence and metaphysics" have great appeal? What exactly are you referencing here? Literature? Philosophy? Film? Beer hall conversation?

You might be right, but I'm not sure what you are claiming.

My reading of history and literature leads me to think that "speculation about the nature of existence and metaphysics" has always been a niche activity.

the pleasure of hard tasks is rooted in the accomplishment of a specific, concrete goal — schopenhauer1

Indeed, and that pleasure has been enjoyed for quite a long time -- especially by the people supervising or profiting from the hard work of accomplishment. Not sure how much the grunts working away in the pits felt about it.

Spinoza made lenses for a living and was still able to produce some musings during his short life.

Wait a minute. When did "speculation about the nature of existence and metaphysics" have great appeal? What exactly are you referencing here? Literature? Philosophy? Film? Beer hall conversation? — BC

I changed the OP. I think you're right and I don't want that to be the focus (then and now). Rather, simply that we focus on the minutia-mongering more than the speculative and abstract in general- explaining what those are as context.

My reading of history and literature leads me to think that "speculation about the nature of existence and metaphysics" has always been a niche activity. — BC

Yes it has.

Indeed, and that pleasure has been enjoyed for quite a long time -- especially by the people supervising or profiting from the hard work of accomplishment. Not sure how much the grunts working away in the pits felt about it. — BC

This I agree with wholeheartedly. I have a feeling there is a convergence of grunts wanting the concentration and flow, come home, decompress and [place entertainment-pursuit here] without too much into abstract thinking. There have always been exceptions pointing towards that niche, as you mentioned.

Spinoza made lenses for a living and was still able to produce some musings during his short life. — NOS4A2

Indeed he did. I'm not claiming that these are mutually exclusive, nor that a niche group of people think of speculative things. Nor is Spinoza modern, so also wrong era. Obviously, philosophers are indeed part of that niche.

Many socialists either came from the working class, as I did, or strongly identify with the class that does the work.

However, a critical task of "revolutionary socialists" ought to be imagining a society operating under socialist principles. What is "heaven on earth" going to be like? Some socialists, at least, stop before they do any speculation and say that it will be up to the existing people in the would-be revolutionary society to decide what they want. All well and good. However, I think people need a vision to inspire struggle. Maybe they need a vision just to keep on keeping on, Else, it might very well all be for naught.

Dystopias seem to be a more popular topic for speculation for some reason. It might motivate corporate leaders to try harder at achieving decarbonizing goals, if they speculated more about bad things could (and probably will) get 25 years down the line or 100 years. B. F. Skinner, the behaviorist, wrote a book--Walden Two--about a utopian society operating with behavioral psychology principles. Seemed lie a dull place to live. Brave New World, of course--but was that utopian or dystopian speculation?

Another way in which speculation takes on more importance is that AI and automation stand a good chance at taking over activities that we find challenging and/or satisfying. If they take over speculation as well, then we're totally screwed, like the sorcerer's apprentice who knew enough magic to start the broom working on its own, but not enough magic to stop it.

Nor is Spinoza modern — schopenhauer1

Are Descartes, Hobbes & Leibniz modern?

Wait a minute. When did "speculation about the nature of existence and metaphysics" have great appeal? — BC

:fire:

What's of great interest to me is speculation is sometimes fruitful and despite the appalling track record, people still do it. I guess it's kinda a fun way to spend a lazy Sunday afternoon, sippin' on something.

Are Descartes, Hobbes & Leibniz modern? — 180 Proof

Not how I'm defining it no. Early Modern, sure in certain contexts that phrase would be appropriate. I'll say, after the advent of the "second" industrial revolution...Seems to be beside the point of the OP though.

What's of great interest to me is speculation is sometimes fruitful and despite the appalling track record, people still do it. I guess it's kinda a fun way to spend a lazy Sunday afternoon, sippin' on something. — Agent Smith

Does practical = better? The way you phrase "fun way" "lazy", and "appalling track record".. Let me give you a scenario.. What if everyday everybody did all the things to stay alive, with no thought to speculation? You coded the code, hammered the nail, crunched the number, but that's it. Consumed your consumption. Repeat. Oh wait, that is much of what goes on anyways. I don't see how that's any less pernicious.

Does practical = better? The way you phrase "fun way" "lazy", and "appalling track record".. Let me give you a scenario.. What if everyday everybody did all the things to stay alive, with no thought to speculation? You coded the code, hammered the nail, crunched the number, but that's it. Consumed your consumption. Repeat. Oh wait, that is much of what goes on anyways. I don't see how that's any less pernicious. — schopenhauer1

I should've been clearer. I didn't mean to say life, including but not limited to speculation, is fun; I meant people seem to think/believe it's a fun activity. I have a lot of plans, but life always has other plans for me. The Game (of Life), I'm forced to play, as we all are, oui mon ami?

Religion, while perhaps no longer a productive avenue for speculation, at least offered a framework for considering the world in a more imaginative way — schopenhauer1

'Religion' is not and has never been a monolithic entity, a single thing. When it's used in this context, it denotes the Enlightenment schema of philosophy, religion and science, each with their own magisteria, and with religion the waning voice of premodernity. But in pre-modern and archaic times there was no separately-defined sphere known as 'religion' - it was simply 'the law' which encompassed every aspect of life, governing social relations, the rythm of the days, months and years, and providing the cosmic backdrop against which the affairs of humans played out. But within these vast and ancient cultural lifeforms, there are still encoded many of the dramas and mysteries of the psyche, and of birth life and death. Think the Greek Myths and the Bhagavad Gita and other epics.

The second thing is, what is often called 'speculative metaphysics' was birthed out of the visionary experiences of prophets, sages, shamans and seers. These often shattering and epoch-making visionary episodes were then conveyed, often aurally, for millenia, to become crystalised in the 'axial age' where they began to be preserved in writing. What we see now as 'religions' are almost lke the fossilised remnants of those ancient codexes, although still with a pulse.

The reason i make that point is because speculative metaphysics is (or at least might be) informed by an insight or intuition into the nature of being - not simply a 'I wonder if there's a teapot in orbit between Mars and Venus.'

I think the very oldest strata of what was to become Greek philosophy contains, or maybe conceals, the remnants of such visionary states. (Here's a review of maverick scholar Peter Kingsley's exegesis of what he sees as the mystical visionary Pythagoras. I'm not saying I agree with it, but I think it's a perspective to be aware of.)

So - I sense what you sense is lacking, and I think it's heading in a good direction, but I thnk it will involve a long journey.

I'm forced to play, as we all are, oui mon ami? — Agent Smith

:up:

'Religion' is not and has never been a monolithic entity, a single thing. When it's used in this context, it denotes the Enlightenment schema of philosophy, religion and science, each with their own magisteria, and with religion the waning voice of premodernity. But in pre-modern and archaic times there was no separately-defined sphere known as 'religion' - it was simply 'the law' which encompassed every aspect of life, governing social relations, the rythm of the days, months and years, and providing the cosmic backdrop against which the affairs of humans played out. But within these vast and ancient cultural lifeforms, there are still encoded many of the dramas and mysteries of the psyche, and of birth life and death. Think the Greek Myths and the Bhagavad Gita and other epics. — Wayfarer

Clearly, that was my interpretation, but I am kind of sympathetic to Schopenhauer's take which is that religion is simply a vessel for deeper truths. it just comes in the form of these myths.

So - I sense what you sense is lacking, and I think it's heading in a good direction, but I thnk it will involve a long journey. — Wayfarer

What makes you think it's heading in a good direction? There are niches for sure, but the broad mass of people, and frankly, the technocratic practicality of the Western values, is that what make 010100101 push electrical impulses.. and what balances debits and credits, and pushes materials from point a to b, c, and d is really what counts.

:up:

am kind of sympathetic to Schopenhauer's take — schopenhauer1

Indeed! as am I, clearly.

What makes you think it's heading in a good direction? — schopenhauer1

I meant I thought you were heading in a good direction in respect of this OP.

Spinoza made lenses for a living and was still able to produce some musings during his short life — NOS4A2

Amazin' grace! Allahu Akbar!

I'm not headed in a good direction. Come watch me put me head in a hungry lion's maws. :cool:

Unfortunately, speculation about the nature of existence and metaphysics, is not popular and remains a niche pursuit. — schopenhauer1

Philosophy was never a "popular" pursuit at any given time in history. But it started before atoms were discovered. Speculation, in the classical sense, changed once we had achieved advancements in all aspects of human activities.

But it doesn't mean we stopped all philosophical inquiries as to the nature of self and existence. Meaning and being, for example, are now being probed through the methodologies of logic, analytics, and even phenomenology -- which, of course, had stripped our philosophy off of its depth and the beauty of critiques.

...the technocratic practicality of the Western values... is really what counts. — schopenhauer1

Yes, that's what really counts in the marketplace. The market place is very big and billions of people do their material thing there and there everything is reduced to the cash nexus. Nothing new about the, and I expect it will continue on until there is no more future.

As dominant as it is, most people are still not merely functionaries in the marketplace, and if they can be coaxed away from their smartphone tethers and social media flowage, there is still the possibility of ideas taking flight.

Ah, don't ask me how to make that happen.

So, what are the best genres in which to speculate?

Religion of an open-ended sort
Philosophy as long as we're not rehashing Plato till the cows come home
Literature is not always speculative, but it certainly can be
History requires speculation, imagination, to put flesh on the bare bones of fact
and ??? there must be more

Music? Art? Surely.

So, the art of speculative thought has NOT been lost -- it just doesn't rate mention in the Financial Times or Wall Street Journal.

We can only hope.

We can only hope. — Wayfarer

We can and we must. I've done me part mon ami. Time to pass on the baton to younger, more optimistic, folks. There are plenty of 'em around. As for the lion, I can feel its fangs on me jugular.

So how do you mean "modern" whereby Hobbes and Spinoza, Descartes and Leibniz are not modern philosophers?

It seems that we have become so preoccupied with practicalities that we have lost touch with the abstract and speculative — schopenhauer1

Philosophers are the thought police of consumer society, and materialism declares all such talk useless and therefore meaningless. This is amply demonstrated by the impossibility of understanding the meaning of even the simple word 'modern' without a material definition giving the date of modernity's advent.

Edit: In the sense that the op has used it, I would date 'modern' to be about the end of the Victorian period and to correspond to the abolition of death as a topic in polite society - replaced of course by sex. The awareness of one's mortality is a great stimulus to unpractical speculations.

I meant I thought you were heading in a good direction in respect of this OP. — Wayfarer

:up:

@BC @Wayfarer @unenlightened @Agent Smith @L'éléphant

Let me reframe this. I really mean to get at, that in our daily lives, there seems to be lack of "meaningfulness in the mundane", whereby the meaningful informs the mundane. Again, religion tried to inject that (but usually one day a week in Western culture, and in a poorly delivered way to the masses). However, there is something about the minutia-mongering aspect of the post-industrial that does its best to take this away. The "workplace" (a social construct just like any other, but one whereby the majority of people garner their subsistence to maintain their material comforts and very survival), is often a killing floor for connecting what one does to anything broader, "mysteries of the universe" or otherwise. It is soul-crushing, demoralizing, and indeed leads to things like "End Stage Capitalism" and "Boring Dystopia". But it's more than just your token memes of ridiculous societal behavior, but the very connection of one's actions with the cosmos.

Yes, I can se BC coming in with some joke regarding the last sentence, something about scanning groceries at the checkout line and its connection with Plato's Forms, but I think you know what I am getting at. And yes, even that should be connected :grin:.

Yes, I can se BC coming in with some joke regarding the last sentence, something about scanning groceries at the checkout line and its connection with Plato's Forms — schopenhauer1

Well! I would have made a great joke if you hadn't already told it! Thanks a lot!

meaningfulness in the mundane — schopenhauer1

Wasn't the "Protestant work ethic" an effort to make the mundane meaningful? The idea was that all work was as sacred as the labor of priests. So, scanning groceries was a service to God and Man, alike.

As far as I know, from personal experience and good authority, the Protestant Work Ethic is dead, ground up in the gears of alienating industrial labor, soulless bureaucratic paper processing, the treadmill of consumption for the sake of production, and more besides. As far as the religious interpretation goes, the religious establishment's connection to the masses, and the masses' utilization of 'mainline religious teaching' is all pretty much dying or dead.

This all didn't happen yesterday -- more like a many decades long process.

there seems to be lack of "meaningfulness in the mundane", whereby the meaningful informs the mundane — schopenhauer1

Absolutely!

Can alienated people in an alienating culture overcome their alienation? I don't know if they can or not.

In various discussions around here about the meaningless universe it has been repeatedly asserted that man can impose, import, invent, invoke, create ... meaning.

How well is that working? Reasonably well.

BUT if one feels mired in anomie, alienation, meaninglessness, soullessness, etc. it is natural to believe that everyone is in the same hopeless boat. If one is NOT mired in the dark swamp, it is difficult to understand why some people are. I have had some long episodes of feeling alienated, meaningless, soulless, etc. in the past; and I have had some long episodes of feeling connected to and part of a solid meaning system.

What made the difference, moving from one state to another. Well, I don't know, exactly. Grace is as good an explanation as I can find.

I am very hesitant to go over my rant about replacing liberal education with education for technology but I think many of our problems are directly related to the change in education. Binary human thinking is no better than AI binary thinking. Young men who learn how to use weapons and how to make bombs, but do not learn how to have a pleasant life, are more than a workplace problem.

Wasn't the "Protestant work ethic" an effort to make the mundane meaningful? The idea was that all work was as sacred as the labor of priests. — BC

About as inspiring as a manager giving an ice cream social. If the PWE was the start, no wonder we didn't get much better! Management takes the role of dutiful Puritan leader, making sure all is making the hay for God's glory (and the bottom line that is).

So, scanning groceries was a service to God and Man, alike. — BC

And waiting in long lines is a penance.

Absolutely!

Can alienated people in an alienating culture overcome their alienation? I don't know if they can or not.

In various discussions around here about the meaningless universe it has been repeatedly asserted that man can impose, import, invent, invoke, create ... meaning.

How well is that working? Reasonably well.

BUT if one feels mired in anomie, alienation, meaninglessness, soullessness, etc. it is natural to believe that everyone is in the same hopeless boat. If one is NOT mired in the dark swamp, it is difficult to understand why some people are. I have had some long episodes of feeling alienated, meaningless, soulless, etc. in the past; and I have had some long episodes of feeling connected to and part of a solid meaning system.

What made the difference, moving from one state to another. Well, I don't know, exactly. Grace is as good an explanation as I can find. — BC

How about changes at a societal level? Work itself can transform into an environment that provides meaning as its goal rather than profit? Oh, I know, off to Utopian trashbin.

Your answer is indicative of the general trend towards radical individualism- the one that self-help books thrive on. It is YOUR fault that you feel alienated. In no way must we question the broader socio-cultural phenomenon.. Now buy this book and series of videos for $39.95.

Can alienated people in an alienating culture overcome their alienation? I don't know if they can or not. — BC

If they do not they will manifest Armageddon. "The term Armageddon has often been used by Protestant fundamentalists to refer to an impending cataclysmic struggle between the forces of good and evil." Robert E. Lerner.

Germany was the Holy Roman Empire and also our world war enemy. It was not lack of Christianity that caused evil to erupt, but that horror was possibly the result of Germany's model of education for technology and Christianity. That same education the US has had since the 1958 National Defense Education Act created another nation that believes God favors them and wills them to go to war in places like Iraq where the US waged war against evil. Bringing us to a new reality of having more national enemies than ever before. This really matters when the world starts dividing and those who hate us start uniting forces. Perhaps replacing our liberal education with education for technology for military and industrial purposes has a downside. Kind of like Athens becoming a military power and the nation to take out.

The US is not the united nation it once was but it has been uniting nations against the US and a man who made us feel good about putting the US first became our president and thugs fought to keep him in power and 6 year old takes a gun to school and intentionally shots his teacher. Something has gone very wrong.

I am very hesitant to go over my rant about replacing liberal education with education for technology but I think many of our problems are directly related to the change in education. Binary human thinking is no better than AI binary thinking. Young men who learn how to use weapons and how to make bombs, but do not learn how to have a pleasant life, are more than a workplace problem. — Athena

To be fair, in many places, no education is taking place. But fair enough- in upper-middle class areas, this may be true enough about emphasis on tech over liberal education. As far as bombs and such, you can replace that with any X products. You make boring things, you perhaps make boring people. "Work hard/ play hard".. Is like "Code hard/ game hard" or "Code hard and drink hard". "Enter stuff into forms", "Answer trivial emails", "Crunch numbers and make spread sheets" Repeat.