• Ciceronianus
    2.5k
    I don't know if this post should appear in this category, or indeed in any other. That I leave to the moderators. Place it where ye will, or consign it to Hume's flames.

    I was surprised to find that this topic hasn't been addressed. At least it hasn't been according to my poor ability to make use of the search function. But given the ubiquity or at least prevalence of posts involving antinatalism, I thought I'd raise these issues.

    As its name suggests, Thanksgiving is considered a time for giving thanks. In the past it may be that it was celebrated in connection with a bountiful harvest. Perhaps the legend that the Pilgrims celebrated the first Thanksgiving with the Wampanoag people, who helped the Pilgrims survive, is true. It became a national holiday here in God's favorite country by act of Abraham Lincoln during the Civil War, in 1863. Just why thanks were appropriate at that time is unclear to me. Lincoln designating a national day of thanks giving in the midst of a terrible war strikes me as macabre, even perverse. He may have possessed a mordant sense of humor. But I digress.

    If procreation is impermissible, as it appears to be according to antinatalism, why should those impermissibly procreated celebrate, or give thanks for, that which occurs to them and others impermissibly procreated? Why should we victims of our parents immorality give thanks for being alive? Isn't it inconsistent for the antinatalist to acknowledge that it's appropriate to give thanks for what has transpired after birth?

    Would the appropriate celebration be one in which we give thanks that there aren't more of us? Should our guests on that day be only those who haven't given birth? That would mean our parents would be excluded in any case, and grandparents (which some may be thankful for, it's true).
  • Bitter Crank
    11.2k
    Joy and gratitude don't seem to be the salient features of antinatalism. They probably are equally unmoved by Christmas, Halloween, Easter, and the 4th of July. Maybe April 1 is their holiday to annually mark the filthy despicable trick played on them. If they like more religious forms, Ash Wednesday (without Fat Tuesday) would be another day for them to celebrate. Ashes to ashes, dust to dust, we remember we should never have happened.

    Antinatalists do display an admirable fidelity to their belief. They seem to be freshly resentful on a daily basis. Oh that we who happily reconciled with existence early on could be so faithful in our gratitude!

    Even if you resent it, @Schopenhauer1, I wish you a Happy Thanksgiving. The turkey never asked to be hatched either, let alone being beheaded, gutted, stuffed, and cooked. Do cranberries resent their blooming parents? Pity the plants! They have had to endure unauthorized existence for many more millions of years than animals.

    Maybe the Earth itself resents being formed out of cosmic dust, and then having to orbit a star for eternity? How does the Universe itself feel about its unrequested existence?

    All Creation is peevish and resentful?
  • Banno
    19.2k
    Perhaps the legend that the Pilgrims celebrated the first Thanksgiving with the Wampanoag people...Ciceronianus
    I wonder if the Wampanoag people celebrate thanksgiving. Things did not work out all that well for them.
  • Bitter Crank
    11.2k
    At least some present day Wampanoag people have said they regret their ancestors helping the Pilgrims.
  • Tom Storm
    5.4k
    Do antinatalsits celebrate?
  • Banno
    19.2k
    No good deed goes unpunished. Further evidence of God's providence.
  • universeness
    3.5k
    Surely funerals are their thanksgiving equivalents, especially each other's.
    They can sing their anti-life ditties about the glorious joys of oblivion.
  • schopenhauer1
    7.7k
    Would the appropriate celebration be one in which we give thanks that there aren't more of us? Should our guests on that day be only those who haven't given birth? That would mean our parents would be excluded in any case, and grandparents (which some may be thankful for, it's true).Ciceronianus

    Schopenhauer had his poodle and violin. I'm sure he was thankful for it, despite the suffering world he wished wasn't the case. He saw compassion as a way to de-personalize one's own will (ego?). I am sure he was thankful for that. Same with art and artists. This didn't mean however, THUS "isn't it great we are all born to experience this?". Rather, it was more of a consolation to, not a reason for life. So I guess I question the premise that an antinatalist or pessimist can't be thankful. It is more about how these things are used and contextualized. If thankfulness is used to say, "Thus we should keep adding more people into the world", then clearly an antinatalist would disagree with this. And no one said the thankfulness has to be about "being born". Nor have any antinatalists ever said no source of positive feelings and thankfulness for at least those things can exist. That would simply be false characterization- a straw man.

    However, at the end of the day, we are put into an intractable situation of complying with the limits/harms of the world, cannot safely transfer to a more utopian one, and thus of course, it is never good to impose this situation onto others.
  • schopenhauer1
    7.7k
    I wish you a Happy Thanksgiving. The turkey never asked to be hatched either, let alone being beheaded, gutted, stuffed, and cooked. Do cranberries resent their blooming parents? Pity the plants! They have had to endure unauthorized existence for many more millions of years than animals.

    Maybe the Earth itself resents being formed out of cosmic dust, and then having to orbit a star for eternity? How does the Universe itself feel about its unrequested existence?

    All Creation is peevish and resentful?
    Bitter Crank

    I never got your mention, but saw the title so luckily caught your post. Happy Thanksgiving to you as well, thanks. It's interesting you mention the planet orbiting the earth endlessly, and plants, and animals. The biggest problem with humans is that we have self-awareness AND knowing we can't do otherwise than surviving, staying comfortable, and such.
  • schopenhauer1
    7.7k
    I wonder if the Wampanoag people celebrate thanksgiving. Things did not work out all that well for them.Banno

    I remember reading that something like 80% of the Native Americans in that area were already wiped out from disease (like small pox) brought by explorers and some settlers BEFORE the Pilgrims even landed in 1620. But yeah, not so auspicious for them. Then they lost King Phillip's War
  • Hanover
    9.1k
    If procreation is impermissible, as it appears to be according to antinatalism, why should those impermissibly procreated celebrate, or give thanks for, that which occurs to them and others impermissibly procreated?Ciceronianus

    Perhaps they celebrate their gains should they see more people converting to their cause. They are not necessarily atheist, so perhaps they thank their heavenly father for each person who swears off procreation.

    It would not be the stupidest religion out there, and it might just provide our sullen antinatalists with feelings of awe and inspiration.
  • schopenhauer1
    7.7k
    Perhaps they celebrate their gains should they see more people converting to their cause. They are not necessarily atheist, so perhaps they thank their heavenly father for each person who swears off procreation.

    It would not be the stupidest religion out there, and it might just provide our sullen antinatalists with feelings of awe and inspiration.
    Hanover

    So what's the point of your comment? Comedic effect?
  • Nils Loc
    1.1k
    There is much thanks to give for the luck of not suffering what we could've suffered by pure cosmic incident. There is much thanks to give that life is transitory also, that all will pass away. Death washes away intolerable/insufferable memory/circumstance.
  • Hanover
    9.1k
    So what's the point of your comment? Comedic effect?schopenhauer1

    That antinatalism doesn't entail pessimism or thanklessness.
  • schopenhauer1
    7.7k
    That antinatalism doesn't entail pessimism or thanklessness.Hanover

    So what I said but in a condescending kind of way towards antinatalists?
  • T Clark
    10.3k
    This whole thread is a set up job to give smirky posters a chance to shit on anti-natalism one more time. If moderators were fair, they'd move it to the anti-natalism ghetto where they've put all the posts which take a positive view.
  • schopenhauer1
    7.7k
    This whole thread is a set up job to give smirky posters a chance to shit on anti-natalism one more time. If moderators were fair, they'd move it to the anti-natalism ghetto where they've put all the posts which take a positive view.T Clark

    Right on the money. Agree 100% that this is what this thread is for. Ironically, this parody thread gets a pass and yet productive philosophical conversation around antinatalism, regardless of the varying arguments are all confined to one thread.
  • T Clark
    10.3k
    Hey @Baden, @Hanover, @Jamal - To be fair, you should move this thread to the anti-natalism thread where all the posts that take a positive view of anti-natalism are sent.
  • Agent Smith
    8.2k
    There are quite a few events antinatalists can choose to celebrate.
  • javi2541997
    2.4k
    There are quite a few events antinatalists can choose to celebrateAgent Smith

    Is birthday one of them?
  • Agent Smith
    8.2k
    Is birthday one of them?javi2541997

    Weirdly, yeah! I had something else in mind but I seem to have forgotten what it was.
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