• Athena
    2.3k
    In Nazi Germany, students were brainwashed to idolize Hitler, and to hate Jews. The slogans permeated all textbooks.god must be atheist

    Trump supporters were not brainwashed but both Trump and Hitler were appealing to people. That is good showmanship, not exactly government control brainwashing. I could be wrong but I think education for technology rather than education for culture and democracy is behind finding men like Trump and Hitler attractive. The slogans being appealing because the education set the stage for that.
    It is believed that human beings with technology can do anything and nothing is more important than achieving those goals. This is not George Washington (first US president) being honest about cutting down the cherry tree, or Abe Lincoln (President who ended slavery) walking a mile to return a penny. It is not independent thinking but "group think" and dependency on a leader.

    I see a Jewish/ Christian motif here, of a God sending leaders (kings). It appeals like loving the Pharoah is appealing in good times and hating pharaoh or king or president, when times are bad. It is not democracy. Our education prepared everyone for leadership and it is not doing that. We stopped doing that in 1958 and began preparing everyone to depend on the "experts" and we dropped moral training and left moral training to the church. We are now amoral and heading towards a police state.
  • Alkis Piskas
    1.4k
    ... some of us are not highly intelligent. I worry about that because it is a reality we have to contend with. If we do not care for these people they end up on the streets and maybe in our prisons and that is just sad.Athena
    This is very true. We do not treat lack of intelligence well. In fact, the opposite. People are often punished, invalidated, demeaned, frowned upon etc. by others for being in this condition. If instead they were supported in various ways, they wouldn't end up in prisons or asylums or led to suicide as you say. Not that this is easy, and psychologists do not help much. But there exist quite effecive methods that treat such a condition.

    Human beings are born with different degrees of intellectual and other mental abilities, as well with different potential. Their immediate environment --family, scholl, society-- can enhance or worsen them. Note however that intelligence can be enhanced at any moment in the life of an individual, using different methods and techniques. (I have worked in this field in that past, and have seen people changing a lot if not radically and their IQs rising.) Individuals are not bound to lack intelligence for their whole life. Unfortunately though, they do because they are not given the opportunity to change that state.
  • god must be atheist
    4.8k
    Trump supporters were not brainwashed but both Trump and Hitler were appealing to people. That is good showmanship, not exactly government control brainwashing.Athena

    In the case of Germany, it was. Textbooks were permeated by slogans and snippets of "truth".

    So this goes to show that America has not adopted the German education system of Nazi Germany. In this aspect at least. I think that's what you said at one point and that's what I found exception with.

    As to not reading your posts properly, guilty as charged. I find your style hard to comprehend. You make no points, but write a flux of ideas and you are enthusiastic about some of them, but it's hard, at least for me, to grasp your points. To me it seems that your points that you actually state are not related to what you write in the surrounding text.

    I find it a bit disturbing, because if I raise an objection against a point you make, then you will refer to other parts of your text where you deny that point, or mix them up and confuse your debating opponent totally.

    Just my experience with reading your posts, please don't pay any heed to it if you don't want to.
  • Athena
    2.3k
    This is very true. We do not treat lack of intelligence well. In fact, the opposite. People are often punished, invalidated, demeaned, frowned upon etc. by others for being in this condition. If instead they were supported in various ways, they wouldn't end up in prisons or asylums or led to suicide as you say. Not that this is easy, and psychologists do not help much. But there exist quite effecive methods that treat such a condition.

    Human beings are born with different degrees of intellectual and other mental abilities, as well with different potential. Their immediate environment --family, scholl, society-- can enhance or worsen them. Note however that intelligence can be enhanced at any moment in the life of an individual, using different methods and techniques. (I have worked in this field in that past, and have seen people changing a lot if not radically and their IQs rising.) Individuals are not bound to lack intelligence for their whole life. Unfortunately though, they do because they are not given the opportunity to change that state.
    Alkis Piskas

    I like very much what you are saying. To a large degree, my concern about education is my understanding of an essential change that has led to increasing social problems. Education has been focused on those who will go on to college. What really got me researching education was a commentator who said teachers should not have to waste their time on children not headed for college.

    In my grandmother's day, education was for everyone because it was about good citizenship. Teachers thought it was their job to help every student, even retarded ones, discover their talents and interest. It was taught, there is a place for everyone in society, that every job is important, and everyone is deserving of dignity. I helped such a young man become a janitor and he was a super janitor because it was something he could do well and he had the tenacity to do it day after day. His parents thought he would never earn his own way, but as a janitor, he could and he worked for an employee-owned company where employees can invest in the company so he retired with a huge sum of money. Not bad for someone everyone had given up on.

    If people can earn self-esteem they do not buy guns and become mass murderers. Back to the commentator's remark, I called him and said what he said about teachers not having to spend time with struggling students was a terrible thing to say and he was so proud of himself because teachers told him they really loved what he said. Within months, one of the students where my daughter was in school, killed his school teacher parents, and then went to the school and killed or wounded many more. That school was extremely blue-nosed and impersonal. Many teachers and schools are marginalizing young people, leaving them to find their way in a society they do not understand, and believing they have no value and there is no place for them. Yes, they are alienated and angry, and we can prevent this with education.
  • Athena
    2.3k
    In the case of Germany, it was. Textbooks were permeated by slogans and snippets of "truth".

    So this goes to show that America has not adopted the German education system of Nazi Germany. In this aspect at least. I think that's what you said at one point and that's what I found exception with.

    As to not reading your posts properly, guilty as charged. I find your style hard to comprehend. You make no points, but write a flux of ideas and you are enthusiastic about some of them, but it's hard, at least for me, to grasp your points. To me it seems that your points that you actually state are not related to what you write in the surrounding text.

    I find it a bit disturbing, because if I raise an objection against a point you make, then you will refer to other parts of your text where you deny that point, or mix them up and confuse your debating opponent totally.

    Just my experience with reading your posts, please don't pay any heed to it if you don't want to.
    a day ago
    god must be atheist

    It is pointless to continue a discussion with who has an opinion and ignores what I am saying. When it comes to the following....

    Overview
    In the previous lesson, students were introduced to the Nazis’ idea of a “national community” shaped according to their racial ideals, and the way the Nazis used laws to define and then separate those who belonged to the “national community” from those who did not. In this lesson, students will continue this unit’s historical case study by considering the nature of propaganda and analyzing how the Nazis used media to influence the thoughts, feelings, and actions of individuals in Germany. While the Nazis used propaganda as a tool to try to condition the German public to accept, if not actively support, all of their goals (including rearmament and war), this lesson focuses specifically on how they used propaganda to establish “in” groups and “out” groups in German society and cultivate their ideal “national community.” After carefully analyzing several propaganda images created by the Nazis, students will consider the ways in which this material influenced individuals, and they will be encouraged to consider how the effects of propaganda are more complicated than simple brainwashing.
    Resource Library

    the US led the way, with segration of blacks and Asians, and Native Americans on reservations. This is not a past problem but one that very much threatens our democracy and is tied to religion and war.

    When it comes to education for technology and advancing democracy, the Prussians led the way.

    The Prussian education system refers to the system of education established in Prussia as a result of educational reforms in the late 18th and early 19th century, which has had widespread influence since. The Prussian education system was introduced as a basic concept in the late 18th century and was significantly enhanced after Prussia's defeat in the early stages of the Napoleonic Wars. The Prussian educational reforms inspired similar changes in other countries, and remain an important consideration in accounting for modern nation-building projects and their consequences.[1]

    The term itself is not used in German literature, which refers to the primary aspects of the Humboldtian education ideal respectively as the Prussian reforms; however, the basic concept has led to various debates and controversies. Twenty-first century primary and secondary education in Germany and beyond still embodies the legacy of the Prussian education system.
    Wikipedia

    Your opinion "So this goes to show that America has not adopted the German education system of Nazi Germany" Is an uninformed opinion and isn't it pointless to argue with someone who ignores the fact and says I am not making points? Show me where I have been confusing so there is a possibility of me correcting that problem. Or we could jump to what is the purpose of education and maybe make some progress?

    I have an old grade school text that bluntly prepares the US for war against Germany, and we have a population that believes they are God's favored people who fight evil because this is the will of God. They oppose the godless communist, and the terrorist wherever they may be found. Billy Graham and the Evangicalist are the right hand of the neocons who wanted military control of the mid-east. Religion, war, and education go together. If that is a pointless or confusing statement, I am sorry.
  • god must be atheist
    4.8k
    Your opinion "So this goes to show that America has not adopted the German education system of Nazi Germany"Athena

    You countered this with America's history of marginalizing visible minorities and at times, killing them.

    Which came first in your opinion? The war on Indians, the Slavery of Africans, or Nazi Germany?

    Then you continued to say that America has adopted the German education system of teaching technological subjects, when America has adopted the enemy's system.

    Which came first? The German education system, or Naziism?

    You are all over the place, and your timeline needs straightening.

    I mean, you make general statements without observing the facts first. Yes, I don't read your posts end-to-end because it hurts to see so many absolutely jumbled reasons and to see and ending with an unsubstantiated point.

    Please apply more discipline in your thinking, then in your writing.
  • Agent Smith
    8k
    Let us look at the OP's question in terms of necessary conditions instead of both that and sufficient conditions! I guarantee progress if we do so.
  • Alkis Piskas
    1.4k
    Education has been focused on those who will go on to collegeAthena
    This is true. Not only for education but for the whole society, starting from its smallest economic entity that is the family.

    What really got me researching education was a commentator who said teachers should not have to waste their time on children not headed for college.Athena
    This is inhuman!

    In my grandmother's day, education was for everyone ... there is a place for everyone in society ...Athena
    That's the sane attitude. (I have no data myself about the situation regarding education in my granparents day ...)

    If people can earn self-esteem they do not buy guns and become mass murderers.Athena
    This is true in most cases. Every person, since their a child, wants to be esteemed and acknowledged. If they don't get that in family or at school, they look for eaning it by joining group of friends, which sometimes happen to be gangs.

    ... teachers told him they really loved what he saidAthena
    Oh, god. This a pandemic.

    killed his school teacher parents, and then went to the school and killed or wounded many more.Athena
    What a tragedy! But the real tragedy starts from parents and authorities (including educational), who keep ignoring --at least as I can undestand-- youth violence. I believe that all these things are interrelated, "infect" one another. It's indeed a pandemic. And I don't see any medicine or vaccine against it, at least not in the near future ...

    You are very right to be concerned about education. Few do. Myself included! (Well, except when I talk about this subject, like now.)
  • Athena
    2.3k
    You countered this with America's history of marginalizing visible minorities and at times, killing them.

    Which came first in your opinion? The war on Indians, the Slavery of Africans, or Nazi Germany?

    Then you continued to say that America has adopted the German education system of teaching technological subjects, when America has adopted the enemy's system.

    Which came first? The German education system, or Naziism?

    You are all over the place, and your timeline needs straightening.

    I mean, you make general statements without observing the facts first. Yes, I don't read your posts end-to-end because it hurts to see so many absolutely jumbled reasons and to see and ending with an unsubstantiated point.

    Please apply more discipline in your thinking, then in your writing.
    god must be atheist

    Which came first, is human nature, which is not very different from animal nature. We do not criticize other animals as we do humans. Why? Why do we expect anything different from humans? Or why do we not recognize all humans as equal humans and justify killing and slavery?

    Civilization changed human behavior and we began basing our lives on what we think as opposed to the simple laws of nature that all social animals follow. I am not sure that this change is an improvement. I think we have gone a bit nuts with our judgment of others and self-righteousness but maybe we are moving towards a higher human potential? I am not sure? However, I do know we don't naturally have all the thoughts we live with today. All these thoughts must be learned and we are living too much in thoughts, and disconnected from reality. There are many different tribes and socialities inside societies and civilizations. They are different because of their different environments and different stories that convene different cultures and different subcultures. Some groups are aggressive and may be gregarious or may retreat into the jungle. Some are timid and maybe curious or may flee. There are many different mixes of human character, societies, and cultures.

    Which came first? Germanic people, Christianity, German education, or Nazis? What is a simple way of saying there were waves of change, and the Prussians had a different environment and a different culture than the Germans to the west. The Prussians took control of the whole of what is Germany today. Before the Prussian bureaucratic model and education, Germans to the west did not have the same culture nor the same organization. The Prussian control of Germany and education for technology for military and industrial purposes came before the Nazi rising. I do not understand the need to ask your question about what came first? I thought the order of change was clear, but oh, you are not reading through my post, so I guess a lot may not be clear. Thank you for helping me be a better writer.

    As I said before, if you have a problem with what I say, call my attention to it. It is simple to copy and paste, and then say why you do not agree with what I said or say ask a question to clarify something.
  • Athena
    2.3k
    Let us look at the OP's question in terms of necessary conditions instead of both that and sufficient conditions! I guarantee progress if we do so.Agent Smith

    Okay, let us begin with the first humans to walk the earth. How did they think and live?
  • Athena
    2.3k
    I have to run right now, but if it were not for your post, I could go shoot my brains out because you seem to be the only one getting the point of this thread. However, the other post also stimulated thought and I have enjoyed them all, it is just frustrating when there appears to be no understanding of why I started this thread.

    I keep thinking of tribal differences and humans before civilizations and the development of thought over the last 6000 years. We are what we taught ourselves to be, and I am glad you see the value in thinking about what we are teaching our children and why! Democracy requires education for being a civil human being, and that is not education for technology for military and industrial purposes. We must not leave moral education up to the church. :cry: Please, if you can help clarify this point I would appreciate that.
  • Agent Smith
    8k
    Okay, let us begin with the first humans to walk the earth. How did they think and live?Athena

    That part of human history is lost - language was in its infancy, reason too I suppose and technology, we had none!

    Nevertheless, we could make reasonable conjectures I suppose.

    Richard Dawkins says, in an interview, that evolution is a gradual process and that there's no clearcut boundary between human and nonhuman primates. Bummer!
  • Alkis Piskas
    1.4k

    Thank you for your acknowledgment of my response to your thread.

    And yes, it is quite frustrating indeed to see that some members do not get the point of a topic, αnd even more, when they criticize w/o offering a single argument!

    Re "We must not leave moral education up to the church": Unfortunatly, this is true for most churches, esp. those belonging to dogmatic religions, e.g. Christianity, Islam, Judaism, Hinduism. Yet, morality is a spiritual subject, and as such it belongs to the field of religion. Yet most religions are based on "ready-made" or "given" moral codes --e.g. The Ten Commandments-- so they don't have to analyze or discuss the subject of morality; they just "enforce" these principles. In other words, they don't have a sound system of ethics --I prefer to "morality"-- on which to base moral behaviour. And this, for me is a huge mistake and it actually invalidates Man because he is able --with the appropriate education-- to exert his own judgment on what is right or wrong, good or bad.

    There are of course some branches of philosopy that treat the subject of ethics/morality, but they are either materialistic or not clear about the nature of the mind, and certainly they don't want to have anything with the human spirit or soul. (I am not talking about the ancient Greek philosophers or the philosophers of the East.)

    Then, there is phycology and psychiatry, which, although they have included the term "soul" (pchyce) in their names, they don't believe that such e thing exists! Both materialist in nature, they are far from being able to talk about morality and education in an effective way.

    Only schools and colleges --and mabe some Universities-- as institutions, could teach about morality and education, but as far as I know, they are also far from doing that in an effective way.

    I believe that there must be something, somewhere, sometime, like an Education about Education, which would take up the subject and develop it --in theory and practice-- to a level and state that education --this extremely important subject -- deserves.

    ***
    I don't know if I have clarified for you this point as you asked and expected ... I have really a lot of things to say about both subjects --morality and education-- but I don't want to burden more this thread, which, BTW, is about what is essential in a human being, which it seems we --at least, I-- have totally forgotten! :smile:

    However, morality is one more attribute that characterizes human beings, since it is inexistent in animals.

    But, since we came back on our main road, I will add the most important maybe faculty that humans have and animals don't: "Awareness of awareness". Animals are aware of their environmnent, but they cannot be aware of that. Humans can: they can be aware of being aware. As they are also aware of their thoughts and that it is themselves who are creating them. This is the essence of the human being.
  • Athena
    2.3k
    That part of human history is lost - language was in its infancy, reason too I suppose and technology, we had none!

    Nevertheless, we could make reasonable conjectures I suppose.

    Richard Dawkins says, in an interview, that evolution is a gradual process and that there's no clearcut boundary between human and nonhuman primates. Bummer!
    Agent Smith

    Oh yes, I want everyone to think about our most distant past, same as I want everyone to think of humans with all levels of intelligence and living in different levels of human progress. I have heard slavery was justified by Aristotle on the grounds it was a kindness to make slaves of people with less intellectual development and this thinking later justifies holding people of color as slaves treating them differently than White servants.

    This morning I read of Brazil's efforts to integrate everyone into mainstream society and this is very different from either institutionalizing people or leaving them on the streets to die as is done in the US.
    Brazil has programs that take into consideration that being integrated into mainstream society, means learning social skills. In the US the original reason for making it law that communities were to provide l free education was to Americanize immigrants who did not understand our institutions and culture. This comes from the 1917 National Education Association Conference book that records all the speeches given. The priority purpose of our education was to make good citizens and other than learning math, reading and writing, the US did not have education for technology. However, because of WWI education for technology was added to education and this was a wonderful improvement and it came from Germany. I will gladly provide quotes if anyone cares. The primary focus of education remained citizenship until 1958 when it was dropped because until the military technology of WWII our defense depended on patriotic citizens willing to make huge sacrifices for war.

    Everyone understands children need to be taught social skills and virtues and morals but thisis no longer the focus of education and I really want to say ending racism and other wrongs came about because of education in some states. This gets complicated because the US has local control of schools and we are still having a lot of conflict about what is a good education. Today in the US industries are providing education in our schools, and this means global warming denying in some states and this is not what I call a moral education. Same problem with some states educating the young for segregation and racism. I have one education book published in the last 10 years that claims science has proven people of color are intellectually inferior! Really we need to pay attention to education!!!
  • Athena
    2.3k
    morality is a spiritual subject, and as such it belongs to the field of religion.Alkis Piskas

    I have to run to work but want to get into what you said. Democracy demands moral education that begins with science and philosophy.
  • Moses
    195
    I see a Jewish/ Christian motif here, of a God sending leaders (kings).Athena

    I believe it's Paul who ties the legitimacy of authority to God. However, if we read Samuel, God (and Samuel) are actually against kingship but the Israelite community overrules them and Saul is established as king. They choose him for this role because he is tall. This is mentioned several times. He is a head taller than his peers. He is mediocre.
  • Agent Smith
    8k
    I must apologize, I've lost the plot. Nonetheless, quite an interesting post. Danke.
  • Athena
    2.3k
    There are of course some branches of philosopy that treat the subject of ethics/morality, but they are either materialistic or not clear about the nature of the mind, and certainly they don't want to have anything with the human spirit or soul. (I am not talking about the ancient Greek philosophers or the philosophers of the East.)Alkis Piskas

    I think we have a lot of agreement but understand the meaning of words differently. For me a moral is a matter of cause and effect, tieing morality to knowing universal law/science. The stories we once read to little children, teaching them virtues and the principle of cause are called folk tales, Native Americans have such stories along with people all over the world. If you google "moral stories" the choices begin with Christian stories, but all people sat around the fire and told stories that convey proper beheavior.

    What is the Greek word of moral?
    A similarity is that moral is a translation of the ancient Greek word ethikos from which the adjective ethical derives. Both words refer to human character and behavior.

    What is the Greek word of moral?
    What is the origin of the word moral?
    The first records of morality come from around 1350. It ultimately comes from the Late Latin mōrālitās, meaning “human nature.” It combines the word moral, meaning “related to goodness,” and -ity, a suffix used to make abstract nouns that state a condition. Morality differs from society to society and person to person. https://www.google.com/search?q=greek+meaning+of+moral&rlz=1C1CHBF_enUS926US926&sxsrf=ALiCzsaKffrbcQi_dUL-xleqzVJn6Bk-fQ%3A1656420140844&ei=LPe6YrePM6rWkPIP7_m0uA4&ved=0ahUKEwi31d_wldD4AhUqK0QIHe88DecQ4dUDCA4&uact=5&oq=greek+meaning+of+moral&gs_lcp=Cgdnd3Mtd2l6EAMyBQghEKABMggIIRAeEBYQHTIICCEQHhAWEB0yCAghEB4QFhAdMggIIRAeEBYQHTIICCEQHhAWEB0yCAghEB4QFhAdMggIIRAeEBYQHTIICCEQHhAWEB0yCAghEB4QFhAdOgQIIxAnOgUIABCRAjoLCAAQgAQQsQMQgwE6BQguEJECOhEILhCABBCxAxCDARDHARDRAzoECAAQQzoECC4QQzoHCC4Q1AIQQzoLCC4QgAQQxwEQrwE6BwgAELEDEEM6CggAEIAEEIcCEBQ6CAgAEIAEELEDOggILhCABBCxAzoFCAAQgAQ6CAgAEIAEEMkDOgUILhCABDoNCAAQgAQQsQMQRhD5AToGCAAQHhAWOggIABAeEA8QFjoFCAAQhgNKBAhBGABKBAhGGABQAFiqJWCYLGgAcAF4AIABa4gB0A2SAQQyMC4ymAEAoAEBwAEB&sclient=gws-wiz

    When we add an 'e' to "moral" we get "morale" that good feeling we have when we believe we are doing the right thing. We once thought virtues were synonymous with strength. Indeed when we believe we are standing for what is good and right, we will risk our lives of going to jail and we do not back down. Christianity hijacked the mean characteristic of human nature that is in all of us all around the world, regardless of which god we pray to, or if we do not live with a story of a god and creation. The Spirit of America is the mural of the gods at the US Capitol Building. She holds the Sword of Justice, which comes from Celtic folklore and she is the spirit of morality. The Spirit of America, Lady Justice, and Statue of liberty are the three aspects of Athena, Justice and Liberty and defender of those who stand for Justice and Liberty. This is to say morals are universal and our spirit can be good or bad, and it all goes with democracy.

    Button line is all this is our nature and Christianity is bad for our democracy because of its claim to being the authority on all this, perverting our democracy which must be tied to science! The mythology of being born in sin, seriously perverts democracy. How do we know truth? We use the scientific method and debate until we have a consensus on the best reasoning. I hope you get what I am saying? It is beyond the intellectual capacity of animals but it is not separate from philosophy, nor should it be separate from education. And I think we are losing people because I am afraid they are not seeing what all this has to do with the essence of being human. We are as we make ourselves, not as supernatural deities make us. We used to read moral stories to children and ask what is the moral of the story and the answer is a matter of cause and effect. Science and morality go together. And technology is not equal to science. Education for technology is not a good as education for science is a good.
  • Alkis Piskas
    1.4k

    Hi. I have to "study" all that and at this moment I can't. I'll be back soon! :smile:
  • Alkis Piskas
    1.4k
    For me a moral is a matter of cause and effect, tieing morality to knowing universal law/science.Athena
    Hi. I'm back.
    I assume that by "a moral"? you mean "a moral act" or simply "morality". I will also assume that by "cause and effect" in this context you mean that morality is consequential, i.e. the morality of an act is judged based on its consequences. Which makes sense, but it's not a criterion for me. I believe that a moral act is mainly based on the intentions of the individual who did it and also his [for brevity] knowledge or reality. Because if I do something that has bad consequences but I did not do it intentionally and knowingly, it cannot be considered an immoral act my part.

    Then you say that morality --being moral-- is connected with one's knowledge of the laws of the universe. If this is right, "Why's that?". And is this too materialistic? That is, based on purely physical things?

    f you google "moral stories" the choices begin with Christian stories, but all people sat around the fire and told stories that convey proper beheavior.Athena
    This is true. But I don't think that we can define and build a moral system based on popular and religious stories. Neither on things like "The moral of the story is ..."

    What is the Greek word of moral?
    A similarity is that moral is a translation of the ancient Greek word ethikos from which the adjective ethical derives. Both words refer to human character and behavior.
    Athena
    Correct. "Ethikos" can be literally translated in English to "moral". In Greek, it is generally used with the same meaning, applying to same things.

    comes from the Late Latin mōrālitās, meaning “human nature.”Athena
    Same with Greek "ethikos": it comes from "ethos", which also exists in the English language and means "the characteristic spirit of a culture, era, or community as manifested in its attitudes and aspirations." ( Oxford LEXICO.

    Christianity is bad for our democracy because of its claim to being the authority on all this, perverting our democracy which must be tied to scienceAthena
    Certainly. Christianity is a dogmatic religion and consequently it cannot be democratic in nature. But I don't know any religion that is "democratic", a term which refers to the political world . That's why religions coexist for eons with democracy.
    The problem Christianity however, as I see it, is not that it is not democratic but it is created on totally non-scientific elements. Even the "philosophical" elements that it contains are quite loose, i.e. not based on critical reasoning but rather on unfounded and loose data, like god-sent stories and "wisdom" and a lot of "mythology". How can one trust all that?
    Buddhism, on the other hand, has much more solid foundations, based on logic and applications in life (experience). That's why it is the only religion --I can call it religious philosophy or even just philosophy-- that makes sense to me.

    Science and morality go together.Athena
    I am not sure how do you use the term Science. Certainly not in the standard, conventional way, which is "The systematic study of the structure and behavior of the physical and natural world through observation, experimentation, and the testing of theories against the evidence obtained." (Oxford LEXICO) Which refers to a totally materialistic/physical world, irrelevant to morality.
  • Athena
    2.3k
    Hi. I'm back.
    I assume that by "a moral"? you mean "a moral act" or simply "morality". I will also assume that by "cause and effect" in this context you mean that morality is consequential, i.e. the morality of an act is judged based on its consequences. Which makes sense, but it's not a criterion for me. I believe that a moral act is mainly based on the intentions of the individual who did it and also his [for brevity] knowledge or reality. Because if I do something that has bad consequences but I did not do it intentionally and knowingly, it cannot be considered an immoral act my part.

    Then you say that morality --being moral-- is connected with one's knowledge of the laws of the universe. If this is right, "Why's that?". And is this too materialistic? That is, based on purely physical things?

    f you google "moral stories" the choices begin with Christian stories, but all people sat around the fire and told stories that convey proper beheavior.
    — Athena
    This is true. But I don't think that we can define and build a moral system based on popular and religious stories. Neither on things like "The moral of the story is ..."

    What is the Greek word of moral?
    A similarity is that moral is a translation of the ancient Greek word ethikos from which the adjective ethical derives. Both words refer to human character and behavior.
    — Athena
    Correct. "Ethikos" can be literally translated in English to "moral". In Greek, it is generally used with the same meaning, applying to same things.

    comes from the Late Latin mōrālitās, meaning “human nature.”
    — Athena
    Same with Greek "ethikos": it comes from "ethos", which also exists in the English language and means "the characteristic spirit of a culture, era, or community as manifested in its attitudes and aspirations." ( Oxford LEXICO.

    Christianity is bad for our democracy because of its claim to being the authority on all this, perverting our democracy which must be tied to science
    — Athena
    Certainly. Christianity is a dogmatic religion and consequently it cannot be democratic in nature. But I don't know any religion that is "democratic", a term which refers to the political world . That's why religions coexist for eons with democracy.
    The problem Christianity however, as I see it, is not that it is not democratic but it is created on totally non-scientific elements. Even the "philosophical" elements that it contains are quite loose, i.e. not based on critical reasoning but rather on unfounded and loose data, like god-sent stories and "wisdom" and a lot of "mythology". How can one trust all that?
    Buddhism, on the other hand, has much more solid foundations, based on logic and applications in life (experience). That's why it is the only religion --I can call it religious philosophy or even just philosophy-- that makes sense to me.

    Science and morality go together.
    — Athena
    I am not sure how do you use the term Science. Certainly not in the standard, conventional way, which is "The systematic study of the structure and behavior of the physical and natural world through observation, experimentation, and the testing of theories against the evidence obtained." (Oxford LEXICO) Which refers to a totally materialistic/physical world, irrelevant to morality.
    Alkis Piskas

    Let me begin with you have an excellent vocabulary. I think I am going to intentionally work on my vocabulary. But at my age, I forget even simple words, so I gave up on completing the book I started.

    Yes, I mean morality is consequential! Yes, our decisions and actions are based on knowledge. That is why Socrates was focused on expanding people's consciousness. "Conscience" means coming out of science/what we know. Aristotle pointed out that knowing the right thing to do is not enough because we can know our doctor said we should stop eating donuts and other sugary things and we eat the wrong foods anyway. For this reason, we must work on our motivation as well and Chinese thinkers explain this very well. So does Aristotle and we call his works ethics.

    The word morality is Latin and means the same thing as ethos, but now we can talk about morals as though they come from God's word and not have any awareness that this line of thinking comes from the Greeks. This is destructive to our understanding of reality and democracy. It is perhaps the biggest reason we are at each other's throats instead of advancing the human potential.

    "This is true. But I don't think that we can define and build a moral system based on popular and religious stories. Neither on things like "The moral of the story is ..." -Alkis"

    Okay, let us go back in time to when we covered ourselves in grasses and furs. We are walking the earth with our extended family highly attuned to nature because we have almost nothing to keep us safe except our wits. I think in this thread there was resistance to doing that, but that is a good place to start when considering what is essential to our humanness. Knowledge and agreements are essential to our ability to work together and survive and we start telling stories that unite us.

    Because it is easier to remember info about humans, we humanized our landscape and know we can find water where the 3 sisters (a rock formation) sit. We have not divided our thinking between what is living and what is not. We don't have all the verbal categories essential to science and more modern man can see the superstition but not the event that began the story and its survival purpose. We call those stories folklore or myths and dismiss them as useless, but they are the tribes, and later civilizations way of establishing social agreements and the organization of power. Much later, they were the foundation of education in the US. We did not add vocational training until 1917 when we mobilized for war. That was a dramatic change in education and another dramatic change was made in 1958.

    At least 5 biblical stories came from the Sumerian city Ur and this mythology justified kings and what the US does today. Billy Graham a powerful evangelist told us in a special TV show that God wants us to send our young men and women into the war against Iraq, and Bush we reelected by the Christian right. Not recognizing the power of myth would be a mistake. We are in the throes of culture wars and our democracy may not survive.

    This link is excellent for understanding the importance of storytelling and the civilizations that are manifested https://www.jstor.org/stable/1178184 . I especially like this line "Greek myths tend to generalize events, Roman myths make them concrete; Greek myths transcend time and space, Roman legends insist upon historicity;" And remember Ceolpatra built her power on the myth of the goddess Isis.

    "Christianity is a dogmatic religion and consequently it cannot be democratic in nature. Oh yeah! And we have Rome to thank for that. Our democracy begins in Athens and with universals truths that we can discover. Literacy in the Greek and Roman classics is essential to democracy and we had that until 1958. Liberal education is learning the Greek and Roman classics and learning how to be our own heroes. It is education for freemen. Education for technology has always been for slaves and it, along with Christianity, is killing our democracy.

    "The problem Christianity however, as I see it, is not that it is not democratic but it is created on totally non-scientific elements" please keep responding. I have to run. Check back to the Roman problem. Should we start a new thread for that? It looks like everyone dropped out of this thread except you. It is all about what we believe about humans. Thinking we are born in sin and need to be saved, is the main root of Christianity destroying democracy and why we now have amoral education for technology. You are the only one bringing up the important points!
  • Alkis Piskas
    1.4k

    Thank you for appreciating my English. I have worked it out a lot during the last 3-4 years, based on philosophical and other discussions in this and other communities, starting with Quora. Yet, I'm aware that it still needs a lot of work since it is not my mother language. (A small secret: I am a professional translator, so that helped a lot too.)

    After I started to read your reply, I kept reading and reading my own words for quite long! Of course, since you have quoted my whole reply, which was not short at all! :smile:
    (Try instead maybe what I'm doing myself here. I do this when there are a lot of points to respond to.)

    Re "Socrates was focused on expanding people's consciousness": Right. And in the best way. Because this was also the purpose of almost all the philosophers of the past. He was connecting morality/etchics with knowledge (meaning consciousness, a term and subject that came into existence after wuite a long time after that period.)

    Re "For this reason, we must work on our motivation": Yes, this is what I meant by "intentionally" with regards to moral actions.

    Re "Now we can talk about morals as though they come from God's word and not have any awareness that this line of thinking comes from the Greeks": Christianity does not care much about people's consciousness as something that is built by people themselves via knowledge and ethics rather than by indoctrination. In fact, I believe it is even against it. A thinking person is a free person. A person abiding to religious morals and tenets is not free. The Church does not want that. The Church wants to control people. Increasing people's consciousness using critical thinking was what Socrates was trying to do with his teachings. And he was put on trial for that. Because ancient Greecs had there gods, morals and tenets as we have today. This is how Martin Luther --like hundreds of other independent 'thinkers"-- was led to Inqusition. The story continues in modern Christianity via its Church and its long list of heresies (sects) which it ise persecuting.
    Ethics/morality must be built with one's own consciousness and acquisition of knowledge. It cannot be forced, or indoctrinated: tt would not be genuine.

    Re "Knowledge and agreements are essential to our ability to work together and survive and we start telling stories that unite us": True.

    Re "Greek vs Roman mythis, etc.": Sounds interesting. I will have a look at the link.

    Re "universals truths that we can discover": I like that. Indeed we have to discover truths ourselves and for ourselves. And I undestand now why are you repeatedly refering to story-telling. It is indeed one way towards that purpose, because it makes us, in an indirect way, think about and discover values ourselves!

    Re "It looks like everyone dropped out of this thread except you": Is it maybe because we have deviated a lot from the subject of the topic? :grin: For me is just fine. I always enjoy a nice and interesting "conversation", independently of the subject! :smile:

    As for a new topic, and as far as I am concerned, I have a list of topics for posting, waiting in a long queue ... But you may well start one. :smile:
  • Athena
    2.3k

    He was connecting morality/etchics with knowledge (meaning consciousness, a term and subject that came into existence after wuite a long time after that period.)Alkis Piskas


    [="Athena;d13103"]Last night I was listening to explanations of the philosophy of education and one began with a question about the qualities of being human.[/quote]

    For me, there is no deviation from the OP. For you are right on topic when you speak of Christianity wanting to control our thoughts and Christians opposing education for independent thinking. The 2012 Texas Republican agenda was to prevent education for higher-order thinking skills. That is specifically about not having education for independent thinking, logic, and reasoning; and Christianity is the strongest force behind ending education for good moral judgment which is education for the higher-order thinking skills. The reason for this is THE QUESTION ABOUT OUR ESSENCE OF BEING HUMAN!

    Are we made from mud and born into sin and therefore need to be held under authority or are we evolved and share much in common with animals with only the potential for being highly intelligent. Like the potential of a thoroughbred horse is wasted without training, so our potential for intelligence wasted without training? :worry: I failed because nothing of any significance was said of what makes us human. This is tragic because we are not bringing out the very best of who we can be and democracy depends on bring out the best in each of us, and preparing us to be the responsible citizens a democracy must have. We are preparing our children to be products for industry not reasoning people who are a free to be all they can be.

    He was connecting morality/ethics with knowledge (meaning consciousness, a term and subject that came into existence after quite a long time after that period.)Alkis Piskas
    Can we ponder for a moment the difference between what you said and being indoctrinated in a religion? What do we think is the essence of being human? How does that relate to how they are educated and their political reality? Are we greedy animals voting for our personal befit or intelligent beings voting for all? Are we by nature political animals or slaves fit only for meeting the economic needs of industry.

    And I undestand now why are you repeatedly refering to story-telling.Alkis Piskas

    The story tells us what to believe about ourselves and others. Am I alone with understanding? I asked about our human essence because I think we really need to think about that. The New World Order is what the US defended its democracy against, and the Bush presidents along with Billy Graham loved the New World Order and we are educating for it. Do we educate for free humans or products for industry?
  • Alkis Piskas
    1.4k
    Are we made from mud and born into sin and therefore ...Athena
    Allow me to suggest to just forget about the myths of Christianity. I have already expalined why.

    I failed because nothing of any significance was said of what makes us human.Athena
    Do you mean that you failed to get useful responses to your topic and that the things I brought up that make us different from animals (i.e. what makes us human) were insignifcant or useless?
    In fact, tt's quite disappointing that you seem to have ignored esp. what I said about awareness. You won't hear about it from many people ...

    Are we greedy animals voting for our personal befit or intelligent beings voting for all?Athena
    In that respect, I'm afraid yes! The vast majority of people vote based on their own interests and benefit, but also fears and beliefs. E.g. If one does not like immigrants, in general, he will vote for the candidate who doesn't like them either and is willing to take measures to reduce their number, privileges, etc.
    Yet, this doesn't make us animals or even less humans. There are much worse things that characterize as humans and which are inexistent in animals.

    Well, this didn't end up as well as I expected. Well, it happens! :smile:
  • Athena
    2.3k
    Allow me to suggest to just forget about the myths of Christianity. I have already expalined why.Alkis Piskas

    The word "human" means moist soil. We can not just forget about Christianity because it is embedded in our culture. It determines who is our president, what laws we have, what wars we fight, and how our children are educated. It is not the only influence on those things but a very powerful influence.

    The vast majority of people vote based on their own interests and benefit, but also fears and beliefs.Alkis Piskas

    We are suppose to have "government of the people, by the people, for the people" Lincoln plagiarized Pericles, (born c. 495 bce, Athens—died 429, Athens) when he said that. It means we think of the highest morality to have a nation that lifts the whole of humanity. Trump keeps yelling "make America great again", but that can only be done through education. Only when democracy is defended in the classroom is it defended. Without that education yes, the majority whose knowledge of life is limited to their own personal experience, vote to feather their own nest and to hell with anyone else. You are good with words. what is a good word for having knowledge and morality that manifest a great nation?

    Our past president, Trump, just wanted to push all immigrants out. Biden is questioning what we can do to improve living conditions in other countries so all those people will stop flooding into the US. I don't exactly like Biden but he is thinking of the welfare of everyone, not just himself. Whereas Trump clearly puts himself first. Trump even put self-interest above our national interest. This is about what we learn and or our moral decisions. Just thinking of ourselves, leads to great harm. Today, that thinking can mean the end of civilizations.

    A handful of men, literate in the classics, risked everything for democracy and led us into a war to separate our nation from England. Democracy as they understood it, lifts the human potential through education and scientific discovery, and good moral judgment based on learning, not our animalistic grab for the biggest piece of pie. How we define the human essence matters because that determines everything else. Education for technology and leaving moral training to the church is leading us to the end of times. But we could have education "for the people" who realize the importance of self-government is the welfare of everyone. "We the people" standing for "liberty and justice for all". Christianity says this dream is impossible because we are born in sin. Only when we stopped educating for good citizenship did this great hope for democracy start to look impossible.

    Yet, this doesn't make us animals or even less humans.Alkis Piskas

    Yes, it does make us as animals. Only education can make us better than animals and that is not education for technology. Liberal education for good moral judgment makes an important difference. Humans must learn the higher-order thinking skills. They are not natural. We inherit only the potential for learning, not the knowledge that is the human potential. I failed to reason with those who posted here the importance of education to not be like greedy animals. Education for technology so we can beat all the competition and get the biggest piece of the pie does leave us as animals, who need a strong authority over them because they can not be trusted to make morally correct decisions. What I am saying is the same as what Christians say, only, as the people of Athens became, I am secular and believe our humanness depends on education, not a supernatural being. Our heaven on earth is about our thoughts and action, not a deity.
  • Alkis Piskas
    1.4k
    what is a good word for having knowledge and morality that manifest a great nation?Athena
    Reverse definition! Well, I don't know exactly what you have in mind saying that. I can think of "social consciousness/awareness" and "ethics". Ethics for me are based on major good for the greatest number. Which, in this case means acting in a way that benefits one's society/country rather than oneself, at least for matters concerning the society/country.

    Trump, just wanted to push all immigrants out. Biden is questioning what we can do to improve living conditions in other countriesAthena
    You see, Biden is more ethical than Trump because he thinks beyond even his country, i.e. in a larger sphere, than Trump, who was caring only about his country. Which, BTW is already good, comparing e.g. to Greek Prime Ministers who think mainly about themselves and their parties. Which is translated into "major good for the smallest number" (= bad ethics).
    You see how well my "ethics" work? :smile:

    I am secular and believe our humanness depends on education, not a supernatural being.Athena
    I am secular too! :grin:
  • Athena
    2.3k
    Reverse definition! Well, I don't know exactly what you have in mind saying that. I can think of "social consciousness/awareness" and "ethics". Ethics for me are based on major good for the greatest number. Which, in this case means acting in a way that benefits one's society/country rather than oneself, at least for matters concerning the society/country.Alkis Piskas

    Please, how did you get the idea that ethics means thinking about what benefits the whole of society? I think it is obvious your understanding is vital to a democracy. Democracy is rule by reason, not by authority over the people. The people can have liberty and raise the human potential when they understand self-government means manifesting that, as opposed to making a profit in unethical ways and basing decisions on feelings instead of reason. Human, is speaking and acting based on principles rather than lower-level self-interest.

    The US has gone through a long period of reasoning for selfishness, and education for technology is not education for good moral judgment. I think it could be said we are now amoral. This is creating very serious problems. People are basing their decisions on their feelings, not on the complex process of thinking, and this makes them like animals, rather than higher-level humans. Our President Trump who encouraged his followers to fight for his continued rule of America, is a master at manipulating people's emotions to get what he wants, just like Hitler, and his followers acted violently just like animals lead by an alpha male attack intruding outsiders.

    As I say those words I am thinking of bonobos and chimpanzees. Physically they look the same, but bonobos are matriarchal and chimpanzees are patriarchal. Those are very different social organizations. One is more cooperative than the other is more competitive. How different are they from being human?

    A few different physical characteristics separate us from other social animals. But our real difference is our brains. Humans are more inventive and have greater self-awareness, but how about awareness of others? That consciousness is essential to ethics, right? However, biologically we are limited to having a little knowledge of about 500 to 600 people and beyond that, everyone is a stranger. This radically changes our morals. We are no longer living informally in small groups.

    Religion, authority over the people, made it possible for larger groups of people to live together. The laws of gods made civilizations possible. This led to authority over the people. Athenians remained independent city-states and understood the need to limit the number of people in a democracy. That is, when we shift to populations larger than 600 people we must live by agreement and preferably consensus on the best reasoning, or have a strong authority over the masses. In a democracy that is learning virtues, principles, and ethics. Intentionally becoming virtuous and intentionally basing decisions on principles, but that does not happen without education. Many years ago I was conversing with a journalist who could not understand why everyone was not as good a human being as he was. Well, not everyone had the life benefits that he grew up with. So back to you. How did you come to have that understanding of ethics?

    You see, Biden is more ethical than Trump because he thinks beyond even his country, i.e. in a larger sphere, than Trump, who was caring only about his country.Alkis Piskas

    Yes! your ethics work but only with education for that will human beings be ethical and not like animals.
    This is why I keep saying only when democracy is defended in the classroom is it defended. We replaced our education for citizenship with education for a technological society with unknown values and left moral training to the Church as Germany did. We have been dehumanized and more and more are acting like rats in a corner or a troop of chimpanzees driving off the invading troop and taking what we want from others, pitting ourselves against each other and destroying our faith in our democracy and human decency. And literally, our churches are promoting this! We have been specialized and know little outside of our specialty and our limited group of acquaintances and live with a lot of fear and anger. This is not the democracy of our forefather's dreams.

    I am secular too! :grin:Alkis Piskas

    So were many of our forefathers who preferred the Greek and Roman classics and turned away from religion. We have a much higher morality than people who live by faith and avoid thinking as much as possible. Billy Graham (Christian evangelist) working with Presidents and Presidents taking advantage of the Christian right to wage wars and win elections, has brought us to a very bad position in the world.
    Our Statue of Liberty holds the Sword of Justice and the Scales of Justice and a book for literacy. She, along with the Lady of Justice and the Spirit of America in the mural at the Capitol are the three aspects of Athena, Liberty, Justice, and the defense of those who stand for liberty and justice. Now Christians believe they gave us democracy and have no understanding of what the Greeks have to do with it. The story we tell does matter.

    Thank you so much for your post. If what we are saying here is not said, no one will think about the importance of education for being humans versus being the most powerful troop of animals. That once was the German and American difference, before our most powerful people traded what we had for a military industrial complex. The beast fed by human slaves.
  • Alkis Piskas
    1.4k

    All well said and interesting! :up:

    All this has been a very nice and useful exchange! :smile:
  • Athena
    2.3k
    It looks like we are coming to a close. Thanks to you stimulating my desire to know more I have learned more. I have been reading and listening to explanations about the intellectual/spiritual differences between the Greeks and Romans. That is the difference between techne and episteme and also a difference between metaphysics and materialism, or we could say a difference between concrete thinking or conceptual thinking.

    I will start a new thread and see if members of the forum can provide more information about these differences and maybe try a history forum. Out reality would be very different If the Greeks had had the power of imperialism that Rome had. Some people are aware that Roman Christianity is a perversion with a more worldly focus and literal interpretation of the mythology. This changes the expression of our human nature and I am sorry people dropped out of the discussion but glad you hung in there bringing me to the greater awareness I have now.
  • Alkis Piskas
    1.4k

    I'm glad that our exchange produced some fruits.

    Just a tiny note: Macedonians, with Alexander as leader, had created a larger empire than Romans and before them. Only it lasted for a very short time.

    Again, this has been a very pleasant exchange. :smile:
bold
italic
underline
strike
code
quote
ulist
image
url
mention
reveal
youtube
tweet
Add a Comment

Welcome to The Philosophy Forum!

Get involved in philosophical discussions about knowledge, truth, language, consciousness, science, politics, religion, logic and mathematics, art, history, and lots more. No ads, no clutter, and very little agreement — just fascinating conversations.