• Marvin Katz
    54
    Plato may have been the first to attempt to define "good"; then G. E. Moore had something of import to say about it. The polymath genius who eventually came up with a precise logical adequate contextual definition of the concept "good" was Dr. Robert S. Hartman. You can read a partial bio about him on Wikipedia. Also there you could find a (somewhat technical) entry touching on Value Science. The article in Wiki doesn't do the topic justice; one needs to read the original writings of Hartman for that. Here I will share with you some material from the opening pages of the first chapter of a booklet I co-authored several years ago. I'll be glad to take any questions on this after you look it over, if you care to consider doing so, or to ask about anything afterwards.
    BIW,The booklet is entitled LIVING THE GOOD LIFE. Here is a link to it: - http://wadeharvey.myqol.com/wadeharvey/Living_The_Good_Lifef.pdf

    What makes the Good Life good?
    Let’s offer some basics. We’ll inquire as to what makes anything good –
    for example, a hammer or a telephone call? Then we’ll be in a position
    to understand what makes a good life good. We’ll take up four profound
    questions here in this chapter: What’s valuable? What does “good”

    mean? What’s better? And finally: Are there types of value, some
    better than others? All of this will give us a clear understanding of why a life
    (or anything else for that matter) has been described as "good."

    After that we will be ready to consider the question: Who
    is the good life good for? You see, we’d like to take some of the
    vagueness and confusion out of these important matters in order to gain
    clarity regarding our topic – which is Living the Good Life. So let’s turn
    first to the important question, What does the word “value” mean?

    Have you ever wondered What’s valuable? Or What do people mean
    when they use that term? It wouldn’t hurt to define what we’re talking
    about. It might even be helpful. When we use words such as “valuable,”
    “good,” and “better,” what do we mean by them? Let’s see.
    For an item to be valuable is for it to be meaningful. We call something
    valuable when it has some features that the valuer is looking for, or
    expecting – else he or she would not call it ‘valuable.’

    For example, a valuable hammer will have some of the qualities, some
    of the features, that a hammer has in our picture of what a hammer is; a
    good hammer will have everything – everything for which we are willing
    to settle at the time we grade that hammer. As a hammer it will be full
    of (hammer) meaning. It’s the same with ‘a good phone-call.’ And in
    the same way, a good life will be a highly-meaningful life.

    To be better is to be richer in meaning, to be more valuable: for when we
    say this thing is better than that thing we mean this one is more valuable
    than that one. Even values themselves can be compared this way. A
    better value will be a value that is richer in meaning.

    We want to define these words so that later we can discuss “the good
    person” and be clear about what we are saying. For, after all, ethics –
    which is something everyone should care about – concerns the good
    person, and concerns What is the Good Life for the good person? Is a
    moral life the good life? Maybe. But what would that mean? Future
    chapters will hone in on that subject.

    What say you? All intelligent and constructivecomments and questions are welcome.
  • Banno
    23.1k
    What say you? All intelligent and constructive comments and questions are welcome.Marvin Katz

    Your text is a shallow and meandering sequence of mock aphorisms and rhetorical questions.

    Get to the point.
  • Marvin Katz
    54
    That is a constructive comment?? Maybe so.

    Greetings, Banno my friend:
    I am among your admirers for the wise contributions and upgrades you have made to this Forum.
    Careful readers will note that I presented the opening remarks of a text that went into detail, {perhaps too much so, demonstrating that a teacher who knew Ethics could succeed in explaining the points to kids in the first few grades at primary school.] Even so there is always the chance that some folks - present company excepted - would miss the points which I had hoped to make in a plain manner.

    In my initial discussion post I set out to clarify what Hartman managed to do. He died believing that he had launched a science of 'value.' ...a research study the axiom for which is his definition of the concept "good." I give him a lot of credit for that!
    I am genuinely sorry if I failed to express, or convey, in simple language, the monumental breakthrough that Hartman achieved!!

    I may be wrong, but I think Banno you would get a lot out of the first 18 pages of sections in a more-serious book: MC.Katz, ETHICS: A College Course. Here, for your convenience, is a link to it:
    http://wadeharvey.myqol.com/wadeharvey/Ethics_A_College_Course.pdf
    [It is safe-to-open. Study it, and enjoy!
  • 180 Proof
    14k
    What makes the Good Life good?Marvin Katz
    Like Banno, I'm not sure what your point is, Marvin, but my own thoughts on "The Good Life" are sketched here (with embedded links to older posts of mine): https://thephilosophyforum.com/discussion/comment/649207
    in the framework of my metaethical précis from a previous thread of yours:
    https://thephilosophyforum.com/discussion/comment/695307
  • skyblack
    545


    You are questioning the nature of the good and the moral, aren't you? That is your "point", right?

    So the post above yours is obviously the kind of behavior that is being questioned, right? Is said post an expression of the good and the moral? Is this behavior "normal"? Civil? Does the command being issued in that post command any goodness? Or does the post disqualify the poster from posting in such a thread?
  • skyblack
    545
    @Marvin Katz

    So instead of poisoning the goodness and the moral, perhaps the poster may have asked you "constructively", "hey, can you narrow down your points"? But see, impotency usually can't be constructive. Usually it is destructive.
  • Marvin Katz
    54
    Thank you, skyblack for your support. It is highly-appreciated.

    I just now, as you were posting, entered a response to my friend, Banno. You will see it above your comment.
  • skyblack
    545


    Well, i am inquiring with you. Thank you.
  • Banno
    23.1k
    That is a constructive comment?? Maybe so.Marvin Katz

    You haven't given any reason for leaving my other dozen reads to pay attention to yours.
  • Tom Storm
    8.3k


    Good for you trying to articulate your thoughts on this subject. But do we need yet another text on morality?

    I think the work would benefit from being more organised and concise - I got lost in it all. There doesn't seem to be a flow to an argument that is building a coherent approach to the subject. It seems to me to be a series of incomplete vignettes on various themes. The language is sometimes awkward.

    I noticed you include Mother Teresa as an example of compassion. Are you aware of the criticism around her fraudulent and narcissistic activities in Calcutta, a perpetuation of suffering in the name of a deity she barely believed in? Maybe you could use her as an example to illustrate just how much the idea of 'the good' involves contested value systems.
  • Mikie
    6.1k
    This question is an important one. It was also handled thoroughly about 2,500 years ago by Aristotle.

    Better to start a thread about his Ethics than attempt to reinvent the wheel.
  • Agent Smith
    9.5k
    I read your links and as far as I'm concerned, you've hit the bullseye - who would've thought it was that simple and yet so profound?

    Here's a list I came up with in re the so-called good life:

    1. Self-actualization (be the best you can be, in mind, heart and in body)
    2. Harmony, both internal (with yourself) and external (with others and the world at large)
    3. Xin (heart-mind) - let reason guide you, but listen to your heart too.

    In more modern terms:

    1. IQ/Intelligence Quotient (be rational)
    2. EQ/Emotional Quotient (emotional stability)
    3. PQ/Physical Quotient (something that I thought up, seems self-explanatory)
  • Marvin Katz
    54
    Thank you profusely, Agent Smith, for helping to build that improved Ethical Theory that the world needs so much. With your permission I will add your contribution to the paradigm as it has developed so far. The final paragraph would then likely read:

    In conclusion, if you aim to be an ethical individual, one who truly understands Ethics and wants to live it, you would be the best you can be, in mind, heart and in body. You would endorse and encourage the spread of harmony. You will aim to be rational by working to improve your intelligence and scope of your reliable knowledge. And you will cultivate emotional stability, and treasure it. Also you would aim to optimize your physical fitness and your health.

    If you familiarize yourself with my writings you will find each of those themes were given emphasis. I have an entire chapter in LIVING WELL entitled 'Achieving Emotional Peace.' See p.. 16 here:
    http://www.myqol.com/wadeharvey/PDFs/LIVING%20WELL-How%20ethics%20helps%20us%20flourish.pdf

    And so forth for the other values you have come to recognize as you gained wisdom.

    Good work, Smith!
  • skyblack
    545
    cultivate emotional stability,Marvin Katz

    Yes, this a gem. Like not being McNutty, passively or otherwise. Like not getting your panties in a bunch.
  • skyblack
    545
    BTW, the above, is for whom the shoe fits.
  • Marvin Katz
    54
    Good for you trying to articulate your thoughts on this subject. But do we need yet another text on moralityTom Storm

    Thanks, Tom. You get it!

    We do need to supply competent, precise, plain-spoken material for the curriculum of instructors in Ethics who will be hired, and who are now being hired, by major global corporations to teach a seminar in "Ethics." I have learned that this is happening more and more lately; companies are assigning people to give such an Adult-Ed course to their upper management personnel.

    I envision the content of my stuff to eventually serve such a purpose. How it will be arranged I don't know Perhaps you could figure out how to be instrumental in making this vision come to pass

    p.s. In my discussion here at the Forum on the subject of Can Morality Ever Be Objective? I upgraded and improved my earlier definition of "morality." I would add that new understanding of it to any future booklet or paper - if any - I would write on the topic.

    In the meantime, read over my more-recent effort to teach Ethics; then let us know what you thought of it. - http://www.myqol.com/wadeharvey/PDFs/THE%20STRUCTURE%20OF%20ETHICS.pdf
  • Marvin Katz
    54
    To Banno --- and other Forum members and participants:

    I'm going to attempt to come to the point now. (Tell me if this helps, please.)

    When something that is actual and specific meets up with and matches an ideal we have in mind for things of that sort, we say that there is "value." In other words, a valuable book, for example, would be a book that has properties that match (correspond to) what we picture as the qualities (attributes) that a book book ought to have! Some actual thing, effect, or person that has ALL the properties (rather than merely some) we are likely to judge as "Good." A good meal has everything you believe a meal should have. This applies to a meal or anything else.

    Hence, "a good life" is one that has all the properties of a life that you, the judge, would (as well as most of us) want. Likely that includes: happy memories, mountain-top experiences, quality-time with those you love, time and resources to pursue your favorite hobbies and interests, achievements one could be proud of, etc. [For someone else - who is not as moral and ethical - it might include fame, wealth, notoriety.] What makes the good life "good" is that , from the point of view of the one making the assessment, the life has it all. It's all there!

    One might observe, that to be better than merely good is to be excellent, or outstanding, or unique. ...these values may signify an even-further richness of qualities.

    To review, when the actual matches the ideal there is value. When something has all, or even more than you are looking for, you call it good ...or let's say, if you went into a store to buy a drill, (or a chair),, for example, and the sales-person showed you one that has more than you expected, you exclaim: "I'll take it!"

    I hope and trust that now I made the point clear.

    Comments? Questons? Reactions? Your views are welcome!
  • Banno
    23.1k


    So the good life is where you get what you want.

    Well, there's that sorted, then.
  • Banno
    23.1k
    What makes 'The Good Life' good?
    Felicity Kendal.
  • Tom Storm
    8.3k
    What makes 'The Good Life' good?
    Felicity Kendal.
    Banno

    I think so. Penelope Keith didn't float my Aristotelian boat.
  • Agent Smith
    9.5k
    From a scan of the OP I'm left with the same feeling that I had when I meditated upon the statement "this pen is good". What does it mean? Well, that the pen writes well, is easy on the hand, is durable, and so on. Could we transpose the form of the good onto a human being? As you can see the Greek notion of the good seems to transcend morality but not completely - in Greek eyes there's more to good than ethics per se. In that sense the Greeks were on another level. My two cents.
  • Tom Storm
    8.3k
    Well, that the pen writes well, is easy on the hand, is durable, and so on. Could we transpose the form of the good onto a human being?Agent Smith

    In that use of 'good' perhaps only if people are to be viewed as tools. For instance, when assessed by a military dictator, a person might be rated as 'good' if, like the pen, they are good at a particular function - efficient killing perhaps in this instance. But from a moral perspective, they might be seen as far from good, for the same reason. The Good is different from good at something. The Geek sense of The Good is Platonism - a transcendent value that some human behavior might be described as an instantiation of, e.g., self-sacrifice for the sake of a vulnerable community.
  • Agent Smith
    9.5k
    In that use of 'good' perhaps only if people are to be viewed as tools. For instance, when assessed by a military dictator, a person might be rated as 'good' if, like the pen, they are good at a particular function - efficient killing perhaps in this instance. But from a moral perspective, they might be seen as far from good, for the same reason. The Good is different from good at something. The Geek sense of The Good is Platonism - a transcendent value that some human behavior might be described as an instantiation of, e.g., self-sacrifice for the sake of a vulnerable community.Tom Storm

    I have to agree with what you say - the world's problems seem traceable back to one/more moral flaws either in an individual or of a group. Nevertheless, Nietzsche did write a book titled Beyond Good and Evil. I do realize that ethics is priority #1 and Nietzsche's conduct is like that of a quixotic battlefield surgeon who asks a mortally wounded soldier "how many rivets does the Eiffel tower have?" Yet I feel, despite the trials & tribulations I'm going through, the question "what lies beyond ethics?" is worth asking.
  • Tom Storm
    8.3k
    Yet I feel, despite the trials & tribulations I'm going through, the question "what lies beyond ethics?" is worth asking.Agent Smith

    Of course. Beyond good and evil is the post-modern project in a nutshell. But is there anything to any subject beyond our use of language and abstract ideas? The Platonists seem to think so. The modern secular world is of course largely of the view (if they consider it at all) that all we have are human values held by intersubjective communities who share meaning. I have no idea if there is anything more than this and am generally guided by the Golden Rule or Rabbi Hillel's 'silver' variation thereof.
  • Agent Smith
    9.5k
    Beyond good and evil is the post-modern project in a nutshell.Tom Storm

    How? Can you explain?
  • Tom Storm
    8.3k
    Simple. Postmodernism is most guises presents us with the notion that all values are perspectival - just like big N.
  • Agent Smith
    9.5k
    Simple. Postmodernism is most guises presents us with the notion that all values are perspectival - just like big N.Tom Storm

    :chin: There's some semblance of the beyond but not quite in my humble opinion. Nevertheless, a valiant attempt which deserves a gold star despite the fact that it wasn't intentional - a happy accident, I love it!
  • Yohan
    679
    You asked "What makes the good life good?"
    You then said in your post:
    "a good life will be a highly-meaningful life."
    So is not your answer that it is richness of meaning which makes a good life good?

    Sounds true enough to me.
  • unenlightened
    8.7k
    A good dog is a safely approachable dog. Un chien méchant is one that attacks strangers; a mad dog attacks everything.

    A bad dog is useful as a guard.

    One might say, of a human life, that a good life is one that makes its own judgement of itself wholeheartedly and insightfully. A poor life, by contrast, is always occupied with judgement of others.
  • universeness
    6.3k
    I think I was about 8 when I asked my father why he smoked and could I try it.
    He handed me the cigarette and told me to take a draw and inhale deeply.
    After my retching fit ended, I told my father that smoking was disgusting and I would never do it. I never have. He tried the same with whisky about a year later and I responded in a similar way.
    I have never smoked but I love single malt scotch whisky (In moderation of course).
    Can we teach someone how to live a good life considering all the nuances involved?
    I think we must try to guide our children on morality/ethics. They must be a part of general education but whose morality and whose ethics? There would have to be a globally agreed curriculum or else there will always be moral and ethical clashes due to different emphasis or cultural priorities based on such issues as theistic dogma. Can someone know what good is without experiencing bad?
    Is touching the fire the only way to instantly know never to touch the fire again?
    Is there a foolproof recipe or list of do's and don'ts for living a good life, regardless of circumstance?
  • Marvin Katz
    54
    the good life is where you get what you want.Banno

    The goo life is a happy life. And "happiness" is wanting what you get.
    "Success" is getting what you want.

    The beauty of it is: If you choose to be happy as your aim, and you get it -- then you can have both: success AND happiness!
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