• Agent Smith
    9.5k
    Anselm's Ontological Argument

    1. If god doesn't exist then god is not the greatest being

    2. God is the greatest being

    Ergo,

    3. God exists (1, 2 MT)

    A Generalized Ontological Argument

    4. If X doesn't exist then X is not the greatest

    5. X is the greatest

    Ergo,

    6. X exists

    X = the greatest island, the greatest woman, the greatest child, and so on.

    Ergo, the greatest anything's got to exist.

    That means, in my humble opinion, since it is apparent that, taking just one example, the greatest man doesn't exist on earth, he must exist on another planet!

    Where are they? — Enrico Fermi (referring to aliens/ET)

    We're not alone! :chin:
  • jgill
    3.5k
    Ref: the Philosophy is Pointless . . . thread.
  • Agent Smith
    9.5k
    Ref: the Philosophy is Pointless . . . thread. — jgill

    Kurt Gödel, no less, was convinced there was something to the ontological argument. He, I was led to understand, developed his own version of it. Google for more!
  • Tobias
    984
    Ergo, the greatest anything's got to exist.

    That means, in my humble opinion, since it is apparent that, taking just one example, the greatest man doesn't exist on earth, he must exist on another planet!
    Agent Smith

    Bollocks. It is not inherent in the definition of the greatest man to exist. It is on the definition of god. the reason being that the greatest man need not be perfect so does not need to embody existence, whereas God due to his perfection does need to exist. See the refutation to Gaunilo's objection.
  • javi2541997
    4.9k


    Anselm's Ontological ArgumentAgent Smith

    Another wacky "ontological" argument to defend God's existence.
    Why God has to be the "greatest" thing?

    God due to his perfection does need to exist.Tobias

    This sounds so contradictory and even has no sense. Perfection needs to be connected to something that at least has existence because you can perceive it so accurately that you end up calling it "perfect"
  • Tobias
    984
    This sounds so contradictory and even has no sense. Perfection needs to be connected to something that at least has existence because you can perceive it so accurately that you end up calling it "perfect"javi2541997

    So you agree that God needs to be perfect? The argument is flawed though because perfection is not connected to anything perceivable. Whether you can ascertain Go's perfection by perception does not matter one iota.
  • Hillary
    1.9k
    Another wacky "ontological" argument to defend God's existence.
    Why God has to be the "greatest" thing?
    javi2541997

    There is only one good argument fir the existence of gods. Only gods offer a reason for existence. The basics of the universe are too dumb to have brought themselves into existence. So eternal intelligences must have done that. Only when you think the universe is irrational, gods don't exist.
  • javi2541997
    4.9k
    So you agree that God needs to be perfect?Tobias

    No, I have said that "something" needs to exists previously to be perfect. Because perfection is a characteristic we often use to describe some things or persons and these need to have existence.
    For me, God is worthless. I mean I can't see why theists put on them so big characteristics.
  • javi2541997
    4.9k
    Only gods offer a reason for existence.Hillary

    You just killed all laws of physics, chemistry, maths, law, etc... in one flawed statement.
    "God" is not a reason for existence neither a proof of knowledge. It is just a subterfuge based on faith. It is more simple than you believe
  • Hillary
    1.9k
    You just killed all laws of physics, chemistry, maths, law, etc... in one flawed statement.javi2541997

    It is exactly the laws of physics I base the existence of gods on.
  • Hillary
    1.9k
    God" is not a reason for existence neither a proof of knowledgejavi2541997

    A proof of knowledge?
  • javi2541997
    4.9k
    It is exactly the laws of physics I base the existence of gods on.Hillary

    I respect your faith on God. But, please, don't mix up science with religion here. Both are incompatible
  • javi2541997
    4.9k


    According to your own criteria:knowledge exists thanks to God...

    That's wacky and flawed
  • Hillary
    1.9k
    Both are incompatiblejavi2541997

    Why?
  • javi2541997
    4.9k
    Why?Hillary

    One is based on knowledge and criticism (science) the other is based on faith and worship (religion). I think they're so incompatible.
  • Hillary
    1.9k
    According to your own criteria:knowledge exists thanks to God..javi2541997

    The gods just created the basics of the universe. All our knowledge about these basics exists thanks to us.
  • Hillary
    1.9k
    the other is based on faith and worship (religion).javi2541997

    Like I said, it's exactly physics I base gods on.
  • javi2541997
    4.9k
    The gods just created the basics of the universeHillary

    "Universe" is a complex astrophysical study which is based on laws of physics and mathematics. It takes years to understand what is going on there because it is so vast and it looks like unattainable for humans.
    It sounds childish saying that the basics of universe comes from God.
  • javi2541997
    4.9k
    Like I said, it's exactly physics I base gods on.Hillary

    OK. Prove God's existence through physics as you can prove the damn X-rays
  • Hillary
    1.9k
    Prove God's existence through physics as you can prove the damn X-raysjavi2541997

    Good one! :lol:

    I took a years study on the origin. I have a working cosmological model, but it doesn't explain where the stuff the model describes came from.
  • Hillary
    1.9k
    OK. Prove God's existence through physics as you can prove the damn X-raysjavi2541997

    Gods can't make themselves appear physically. That would destroy the natural order. Hidden variables could do the trick. Via the mind they could show up.
  • Hillary
    1.9k
    It sounds childish saying that the basics of universe comes from God.javi2541997

    The child would be right though. I believed in god when a child. Physics took that away, and now I realize the child I was was right.
  • javi2541997
    4.9k
    Gods can't make themselves appear physically. That would destroy the natural order.Hillary

    Another contradictory argument! You said you believe on him due to physics but, at the same time, you say God can't make appear physically
  • javi2541997
    4.9k
    The child would be right though. I believed in god when a child.Hillary

    I am sorry someone brainwashed you. Nevertheless, it is not so late to take part in this issue and improve your critical thinking
  • Hillary
    1.9k
    . Nevertheless, it is not so late to take part in this issue and improve your critical thinkingjavi2541997

    It's you who's brainwashed by the critical though doctrine of science. Like I was. But if you would know fundamental physics, you would know it gives no explanation why the universe is there.
  • Hillary
    1.9k
    Where are they?
    — Enrico Fermi (referring to aliens/ET)

    We're not alone! :chin:
    Agent Smith

    Indeed. The universe is teeming with life. In virtually all planetary systems there are planets with life on them. There are more people up there!
  • Vincent
    95
    The question is not 'where are they' or 'do they exist'. The real question is 'why don't they contact us? Imagine yourself in their place. Would you wanting something from humanity. Humans cannot yet combat something as simple as aggression. Why would god of aliens help us. We are a primitive, aggressive, greedy creature that likes to destroy everything. If we can create peace on earth then the proof of God will be delivered
  • javi2541997
    4.9k
    But if you would know fundamental physics, you would know it gives no explanation why the universe is there.Hillary

    If there is not an explanation of why the universe is there, then why you connect it with God's existence
  • Hillary
    1.9k
    If there is not an explanation of why the universe is there, then why you connect it with God's existencejavi2541997

    Because I like to know why the universe is there. Why we are there. Gods offer an answer.
  • javi2541997
    4.9k
    Because I like to know why the universe is there. Why we are there. Gods offer an answer.Hillary

    And the answer is...? Because you said previously that God doesn't appear physically but we do so.
    Then, we have more evidence of existence about ourselves than God.
    Why are you asking more when we already exist thanks to our knowledge?
  • Hillary
    1.9k
    Why are you asking more when we already exist thanks to our knowledge?javi2541997

    Because I don't think we exist thanks to our knowledge that we exist. That's what I mean about the brainwash power of science, knowledge. It is the same as saying gods created the universe. Knowledge having created the universe makes no sense. The basics of the universe just popping into existence even less. So gods are left. And they had good reasons. They can show themselves via the mind, in dreams, astral projections, clouds, etc. They might even show up in double slit experiments, though i don't think they will do so.
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