Where are they?

Agent Smith

Anselm's Ontological Argument

1. If god doesn't exist then god is not the greatest being

2. God is the greatest being

Ergo,

3. God exists (1, 2 MT)

A Generalized Ontological Argument

4. If X doesn't exist then X is not the greatest

5. X is the greatest

Ergo,

6. X exists

X = the greatest island, the greatest woman, the greatest child, and so on.

Ergo, the greatest anything's got to exist.

That means, in my humble opinion, since it is apparent that, taking just one example, the greatest man doesn't exist on earth, he must exist on another planet!

Where are they? — Enrico Fermi (referring to aliens/ET)

We're not alone! :chin:

jgill

Ref: the Philosophy is Pointless . . . thread.

Agent Smith

Ref: the Philosophy is Pointless . . . thread. — jgill

Kurt Gödel, no less, was convinced there was something to the ontological argument. He, I was led to understand, developed his own version of it. Google for more!

Tobias

Ergo, the greatest anything's got to exist.

That means, in my humble opinion, since it is apparent that, taking just one example, the greatest man doesn't exist on earth, he must exist on another planet! — Agent Smith

Bollocks. It is not inherent in the definition of the greatest man to exist. It is on the definition of god. the reason being that the greatest man need not be perfect so does not need to embody existence, whereas God due to his perfection does need to exist. See the refutation to Gaunilo's objection.

javi2541997

↪Agent Smith

Anselm's Ontological Argument — Agent Smith

Another wacky "ontological" argument to defend God's existence.
Why God has to be the "greatest" thing?

God due to his perfection does need to exist. — Tobias

This sounds so contradictory and even has no sense. Perfection needs to be connected to something that at least has existence because you can perceive it so accurately that you end up calling it "perfect"

Tobias

This sounds so contradictory and even has no sense. Perfection needs to be connected to something that at least has existence because you can perceive it so accurately that you end up calling it "perfect" — javi2541997

So you agree that God needs to be perfect? The argument is flawed though because perfection is not connected to anything perceivable. Whether you can ascertain Go's perfection by perception does not matter one iota.

Hillary

Another wacky "ontological" argument to defend God's existence.
Why God has to be the "greatest" thing? — javi2541997

There is only one good argument fir the existence of gods. Only gods offer a reason for existence. The basics of the universe are too dumb to have brought themselves into existence. So eternal intelligences must have done that. Only when you think the universe is irrational, gods don't exist.

javi2541997

So you agree that God needs to be perfect? — Tobias

No, I have said that "something" needs to exists previously to be perfect. Because perfection is a characteristic we often use to describe some things or persons and these need to have existence.
For me, God is worthless. I mean I can't see why theists put on them so big characteristics.

javi2541997

Only gods offer a reason for existence. — Hillary

You just killed all laws of physics, chemistry, maths, law, etc... in one flawed statement.
"God" is not a reason for existence neither a proof of knowledge. It is just a subterfuge based on faith. It is more simple than you believe

Hillary

You just killed all laws of physics, chemistry, maths, law, etc... in one flawed statement. — javi2541997

It is exactly the laws of physics I base the existence of gods on.

Hillary

God" is not a reason for existence neither a proof of knowledge — javi2541997

A proof of knowledge?

javi2541997

It is exactly the laws of physics I base the existence of gods on. — Hillary

I respect your faith on God. But, please, don't mix up science with religion here. Both are incompatible

javi2541997

↪Hillary

According to your own criteria:knowledge exists thanks to God...

That's wacky and flawed

Hillary

Both are incompatible — javi2541997

Why?

javi2541997

Why? — Hillary

One is based on knowledge and criticism (science) the other is based on faith and worship (religion). I think they're so incompatible.

Hillary

According to your own criteria:knowledge exists thanks to God.. — javi2541997

The gods just created the basics of the universe. All our knowledge about these basics exists thanks to us.

Hillary

the other is based on faith and worship (religion). — javi2541997

Like I said, it's exactly physics I base gods on.

javi2541997

The gods just created the basics of the universe — Hillary

"Universe" is a complex astrophysical study which is based on laws of physics and mathematics. It takes years to understand what is going on there because it is so vast and it looks like unattainable for humans.
It sounds childish saying that the basics of universe comes from God.

javi2541997

Like I said, it's exactly physics I base gods on. — Hillary

OK. Prove God's existence through physics as you can prove the damn X-rays

Hillary

Prove God's existence through physics as you can prove the damn X-rays — javi2541997

Good one! :lol:

I took a years study on the origin. I have a working cosmological model, but it doesn't explain where the stuff the model describes came from.

Hillary

OK. Prove God's existence through physics as you can prove the damn X-rays — javi2541997

Gods can't make themselves appear physically. That would destroy the natural order. Hidden variables could do the trick. Via the mind they could show up.

Hillary

It sounds childish saying that the basics of universe comes from God. — javi2541997

The child would be right though. I believed in god when a child. Physics took that away, and now I realize the child I was was right.

javi2541997

Gods can't make themselves appear physically. That would destroy the natural order. — Hillary

Another contradictory argument! You said you believe on him due to physics but, at the same time, you say God can't make appear physically

javi2541997

The child would be right though. I believed in god when a child. — Hillary

I am sorry someone brainwashed you. Nevertheless, it is not so late to take part in this issue and improve your critical thinking

Hillary

. Nevertheless, it is not so late to take part in this issue and improve your critical thinking — javi2541997

It's you who's brainwashed by the critical though doctrine of science. Like I was. But if you would know fundamental physics, you would know it gives no explanation why the universe is there.

Hillary

Where are they?
— Enrico Fermi (referring to aliens/ET)

We're not alone! :chin: — Agent Smith

Indeed. The universe is teeming with life. In virtually all planetary systems there are planets with life on them. There are more people up there!

Vincent

The question is not 'where are they' or 'do they exist'. The real question is 'why don't they contact us? Imagine yourself in their place. Would you wanting something from humanity. Humans cannot yet combat something as simple as aggression. Why would god of aliens help us. We are a primitive, aggressive, greedy creature that likes to destroy everything. If we can create peace on earth then the proof of God will be delivered

javi2541997

But if you would know fundamental physics, you would know it gives no explanation why the universe is there. — Hillary

If there is not an explanation of why the universe is there, then why you connect it with God's existence

Hillary

If there is not an explanation of why the universe is there, then why you connect it with God's existence — javi2541997

Because I like to know why the universe is there. Why we are there. Gods offer an answer.

javi2541997

Because I like to know why the universe is there. Why we are there. Gods offer an answer. — Hillary

And the answer is...? Because you said previously that God doesn't appear physically but we do so.
Then, we have more evidence of existence about ourselves than God.
Why are you asking more when we already exist thanks to our knowledge?

Hillary

Why are you asking more when we already exist thanks to our knowledge? — javi2541997

Because I don't think we exist thanks to our knowledge that we exist. That's what I mean about the brainwash power of science, knowledge. It is the same as saying gods created the universe. Knowledge having created the universe makes no sense. The basics of the universe just popping into existence even less. So gods are left. And they had good reasons. They can show themselves via the mind, in dreams, astral projections, clouds, etc. They might even show up in double slit experiments, though i don't think they will do so.

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