• Agent Smith
    4.4k


    Most Interesting. — Ms. Marple

    Your post, if accurate, shows how little I know of God and our relationship with Him. What I find really intriguing is how the Jewish Elohim seems hard to distinguish from pagan god(s) - exhibiting qualities like spite, favor, and everything in between. All that only if you've given a true account of Jewish faith.

    There really is no problem reconciling the tragic Jewish history with a God like that.

    I suspect another reason why Jews maintain their faith despite what they went through (holocaust, persecution, etc.) is it defines their identity as a people.
  • Agent Smith
    4.4k
    Muchas gracias señor. The shoe is on the other foot, eh? The judge is on trial. This is a significant development insofar as god & humans are concerned. We've always trusted in god's judgment and that too despite what to even fools would be considered gross misccariage of justice. Well, not anymore! Something has gone horribly wrong, si?
  • Agent Smith
    4.4k
    There is an answer to this, but it's too politically incorrect to talk about it in public.baker

    :lol: Suit yourself.
  • 180 Proof
    8.4k
    "God" (not gods) has always been "on trial" – such, IMO, is the provenance of myths / heresies, ancient philosophies & modern freethought. :fire:
  • Agent Smith
    4.4k
    "God" (not gods) has always been "on trial" – such, IMO, is the provenance of myths / heresies, ancient philosophies & modern freethought.180 Proof

    Are you aware of any myths where people put gods in the dock?
  • 180 Proof
    8.4k
    Are you aware of any myths where people put gods in the dock?Agent Smith
    E.g. Genesis: 16-33 – Abraham interrogates God (via its angels) about whether or not it's just to punish the innocent along with the "wicked" in its imminent destruction of Sodom & Gomorrah.

    Book of Job
    • Plato's Euthyphro
    • Also, the Gnostics (re: "Demiurge").
  • Agent Smith
    4.4k
    E.g. Genesis: 16-33 – Abraham interrogates God (via its angels) about whether or not it's just to punish the innocent along with the "wicked" in its imminent destruction of Sodom & Gomorrah.

    Epicureans – "The Riddle of Epicurus"
    Gnostics – re: "Demiurge"
    Spinozists – Tractatus Theologico-Politicus
    180 Proof

    What was God's reply? if I may ask. Collateral damage?
  • 180 Proof
    8.4k
    Read the texts and judge for yourself. :smirk:
  • Agent Smith
    4.4k
    Read the texts and judge for yourself. :smirk:180 Proof

    :ok:
  • ASmallTalentForWar
    40
    Job directly addresses this as well in something of a trial. Superficially, it is a trial of Job but essentially it is God who has more to lose. The basic question put forth by Satan - one of God's angels in the story - is whether God's favorite or ideal worshipper will continue to venerate the deity if he is beset by misfortune or if he will turn away from God if he doesn't receive any benefit.

    All the answers provided by Job's neighbors are incorrect and in the end it does seem like Job is on the verge of cursing God, but then God comes down and berates him with a somewhat irrational argument and Job asserts continued devotion. After which, God pays him off by bringing good fortune again.

    Now, this trial's outcome wouldn't stand up to any normal ethical scrutiny, but it essentially makes the case that the Jews are stuck with God even if it does them no good. Even when God is the cause of the suffering. Maybe because in the long run, God knows what's best better than the people do. So, when God does it, it's not evil even though it may appear to be evil to the people suffering it.
  • Agent Smith
    4.4k


    I've heard of Job's tragic story. I didn't know Job's tribulations were visited upon him & his family (?) on a dare by Lucifer.

    Do not put the Lord your God to the test. — Jesus

    No spirit of reciprocity in this, our relationship, with YHWH. Perhaps that's the moral of the story: (Learn to) give without expecting anything in return. Has (human) sacrifice undertones! :scream: Religious practice is an oxymoron in my humble opinion - they're humanly impossible, have been and will probably remain so. Thus, I suspect, faiths are, at the end of the day, exhortations to transcend our nature and its limitations! Übermenschen (Nietzsche, God is not dead).
  • Moses
    58
    intriguing is how the Jewish Elohim seems hard to distinguish from pagan god(s)Agent Smith

    I don't know the pagan gods so you'll need to teach me on this.

    how do the pagan gods view disability? how about the poor? do they get the big issues right? jewish god is surprisingly good on both these issues. not a common thing in 600 bce.
  • Agent Smith
    4.4k
    pagan gods — Moses

    Human + (Supernatural) Power = Superhero/Supervillain

    Remember Thor (Marvel Comics)!

    As for an explanation for the stuff you listed: Divine wrath OR Divine favor and everything betwixt.
  • ASmallTalentForWar
    40
    I've heard of Job's tragic story. I didn't know Job's tribulations were visited upon him & his family (?) on a dare by Lucifer.Agent Smith

    Not Lucifer. Satan. It's important to note that Satan was simply another of god's "children" or "angels" and not a direct opponent to God. He was acting more in the role of a prosecuting attorney against Job with God in the role of the Judge (and defender in a sense). Lucifer was not really a being - and is still not really a being - in Judaism, the way he seems to be in Christianity. Actually, Christ was referred to as Lucifer in some Latin translations of the Bible (it means "light bearer") and much of the Lucifer myth grew out of later gentile Christian thought combined with some apocryphal stories of the Nephilim and Gregori (fallen angels) in Jewish folklore (like the apocryphal Book of Enoch or the Book of Giants in the Dead Sea Scrolls).

    Also, I believe the influence of Manicheanism and Zoroastrianism as well as the duality of Babylonian and Persian religions where many Jewish communities settled had a great influence on the idea of some kind of personalized embodiment of evil separate from the monotheistic God of the Hebrews. It's much easier to think that your God is solely good and there is some malevolent separate force responsible for the evil in the world.

    However, that is obviously illogical if God is not only omniscient but omnipotent as well. An all-powerful and all-knowing God naturally is responsible for everything that happens in its creation, so there is no excuse to be found in a devil that it created and allows to run free. If there is a God, then he is responsible for the misfortune that you are praying to him to relieve.
  • Agent Smith
    4.4k
    misfortune — ASmallTalentForWar

    Misfortune can be blamed on somebody?! Marcus du Sautoy writes in a book (title forgotten) that to many of our forebears, Chance = God.

    I have no idea what the modern understanding of luck is but here's a little story from my life: I'm part of a team of transportation services. There's this driver who performs poorly (late to office and all that). We put him to task and his response was that all his lapses were due to, get this, bad luck; I think he meant to imply it wasn't his or anyone's fault that he was doing so poorly. Something to think about, eh?
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