• Mariner
    374
    The influx of immigrants is shifting the political landscape of many Western countries. 30 years ago, few people would imagine a Muslim mayor in London. (There is no value judgment here, I'm just observing a fact). This shift is occurring through peaceful, democratic means; people move, get established, participate in the political process, elect representatives. It has been going on for some years and shows no signs of slowing.

    The question is, why is this not happening in Israel? I am very ignorant of Israel's constitution, but I presume (from the news, which are hardly trustworthy, but that's what we have) that it is equally democratic. Meaning, if there were an inflow of foreign people who peacefully started to participate in the political process, then there would be (in the long run) a shift in the political landscape. Why isn't this happening there?

    Remember my ignorance when replying. I'm just curious and have no "side" to root for.
  • Jamal
    9.2k
    My understanding is that while Jewish and non-Jewish citizens have equal rights according to Israeli law, immigration into Israel and attaining citizenship are very difficult indeed, with the exception of the Law of Return, which gives Jews from anywhere in the world the right to go to Israel and become a citizen. So unless you're Jewish you're probably out of luck.

    Among citizens, there is a big population of Arabs, most of whom are Muslims. They're outnumbered by Jews, but they do have some political clout, and this may be growing--but not because of immigration.

    As far as I know the biggest recent influx into Israel that might have had cultural or political consequences is that of the Ethiopian Jews over the last few decades.
  • Mongrel
    3k
    Israel was founded by Zionists. They wanted a totally Jewish state. Israel committed some dastardly deeds in an attempt to rid the area of Palestinians, but they stopped short of transporting them forcibly to Jordan (because of the connotations of transporting.. Holocaust stuff).

    My Palestinian buddy says Jews beat up Palestinians and nobody does anything about it. So it's that kind of environment where violence becomes cyclical. Maybe if the old Zionists would lay down and die, the younger generation could pick up the pieces and head toward something more peaceful.
  • Mariner
    374
    ...immigration into Israel and attaining citizenship are very difficult indeed, with the exception of the Law of Return, which gives Jews from anywhere in the world the right to go to Israel and become a citizen. So unless you're Jewish you're probably out of luck.jamalrob

    So, the substantive difference is a legal framework that inhibits immigration. Looks plausible. But is it really written up so as to favor Jews? In other words, is the letter of the law (rather than the enforcement of it) openly discriminatory against non-Jews? I've googled the Law of Return, but that is a positive piece of legislation (i.e., it favors a group, but it does not imply disfavor to other groups).

    To keep with the theme of the comparison, is it really that much harder for, say, a family from Singapore to move to Israel rather than to Germany? Legally speaking?
  • Thorongil
    3.2k
    This shift is occurring through peaceful, democratic meansMariner

    Not really. There are majorities in the UK and Europe that want less immigration. The elites don't care, though, because they aren't affected by it.
  • Mariner
    374
    Not really. There are majorities in the UK and Europe that want less immigration. The elites don't care, though, because they aren't affected by it.Thorongil

    The [political] elites were put there by majority vote. My comment is not supposed to mean that there are no tensions, or that there won't be violent reactions soon; it is only an observation that so far the process (assimilation of foreign elements and discontentment with that) has been peaceful on the larger scale.
  • Thorongil
    3.2k
    it is only an observation that so far the process (assimilation of foreign elements and discontentment with that) has been peaceful on the larger scaleMariner

    I'm not so sure about that. I suppose it depends on how large the scale is. Muslim immigrant populations are disproportionately responsible for crime across Europe, given their percentage of the population. Thousands of them have joined ISIS. They have staged violent protests. ISIS inspired lone wolves have committed some of the most horrendous terrorist attacks in recent memory. If you look at Pew polling of European Muslims, disconcertingly large percentages of them hold views antithetical to modern Western values. Child brides and forced marriages are phenomena that exist solely within these communities. The list goes on.
  • Mariner
    374
    No disagreement with any of that; what you pointed out are the symptoms of tension. The tension is real and, like the process of immigration, shows no signs of slowing down, which means that the peacefulness of the process is probably at an end.
  • TimeLine
    2.7k
    The question is, why is this not happening in Israel? I am very ignorant of Israel's constitution, but I presume (from the news, which are hardly trustworthy, but that's what we have) that it is equally democratic. Meaning, if there were an inflow of foreign people who peacefully started to participate in the political process, then there would be (in the long run) a shift in the political landscape. Why isn't this happening there?Mariner

    There is a high number of emigration in the country because of a strong social dissatisfaction and due to the State' ongoing security issues - particularly internally, but the external threat of Arab States as well - identity politics or Zionism plays a strong role in the attitudes for exclusivity. It is why there is currently a strong trend to influence the immigration of young Jews from Western countries to Aliyah.

    You have to also appreciate the vast difference in the political and social landscape between places like the UK and Israel and even so, having a Muslim mayor has not been without its controversy even in an advanced State. When I was recently in Tel Aviv, there was a huge public 'meeting' between Israelis and Palestinians to discuss the two-state solution, protests against the far-right Orthodox extremism [something clearly seen following the death of Yitzak Rabin and the continued anti-Palestinian behaviour in the occupied territories viz. the building of Jewish settlements] and the fact that this is allowed exposes a strengthening democracy.

    Comparably, I think Israel is doing pretty well considering the extreme circumstances, but sure, it is not without its flaws particularly legally, such as the recent legislative changes that is causing difficulties for anyone who supports Palestinians from entering the country. While they are welcoming foreigners, like most countries, that is exactly how they will remain 'a foreigner' and border control will remind us of that. In addition to Jamal' post, acquisition of citizenship can also include marriage [not without its social and religious issues for the ladies] as well as the honorific righteous among the nations concept, whatever the heck that is. Naturalisation - though difficult - is perhaps the only way to go.
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