It boggles the mind to think that the leadership is so into their groupthink.... — Count Timothy von Icarus
At least he has had no troubles of doing that partly for 8 years. So why take some more?Putin will have to come to the table at some point, he can't occupy Ukraine and large areas are vehemently opposed to the Russians. — Benkei
Other than calling Putin names, the US hasn't helped Ukraine either except making money off the militarization of Ukrainian society. We do know that when negotiations need to happen, France (and Germany and Italy) are the only countries that haven't disqualified themselves as negotiation partners. — Benkei
French President Emmanuel Macron has moved to extend €300 million ($337 million) of aid and military equipment to Ukraine, according to French daily Le Monde.
According to the report, which came on the second day of Russia's military intervention in Ukraine, France will also freeze Russian officials' assets within the country.
President Emmanuel Macron on Friday announced at the country’s national assembly the delivery of additional €300 million in aid, along with military equipment, to Ukraine and pledged to undertake steps in the NATO framework "to protect the soil of our Baltic and Romanian allies."
In a message sent to lawmakers explaining France’s response to the Ukrainian invasion, Macron said "nothing will be neglected in matters of aid" to Kyiv.
Russia already has the groundwork to enable these problems, — Christoffer
the US doesn't — Christoffer
We see the behaviors of corruption and radical movements of people under Trump. — Christoffer
if people "don't care about politics", they could wake up in a world similar to places like Russia. — Christoffer
I'm talking about how Russia's political groundwork for authoritarianism can happen in other nations — Christoffer
How? Websites, newspapers and social media spreading 'misinformation' have been increasingly banned since Covid times. — Isaac
Yes, they spread misinformation in a time of crisis. The problem is the uneducated with a megaphone spreading misinformation that hurts other people. How many people died during this pandemic due to misinformation telling them not to get vaccinated? — Christoffer
Naysayers have been ridiculed, de-platformed, sacked — Isaac
That's not what I've seen. The ones that have been ridiculed, de-platformed or sacked have all taken part in spreading dangerous misinformation or acted with such disregard for safety, like nurses not caring for protocols when people risk dying around them.
Protests have been met with militarised police under emergency powers. — Isaac
The large gatherings who didn't have permission during a time when large gatherings need to be avoided? People who don't understand how a pandemic works, who don't understand that large gatherings could create super-spreading events which result in people outside of this gathering getting killed by the consequence of such a super-spreading event, don't know what the fuck they're talking about. To be blind to how pandemics work is to ignore facts. — Christoffer
At least on par with the vocal minority advocating for extreme nationalism, racism, antivaccine, conspiracy theories etc — Christoffer
Also fighting over money can be moral of course, — neomac
You just keep claiming that “the rich oppress the poor far more consistently than one nation oppresses another” without providing evidences and while being contradicted by the evidences: Ukrainian families got exterminated by Russian soldiers, no Ukrainian ruling class member has exterminated those families. — neomac
You could claim that one is morally more justified in fighting X over Y, because X is more oppressive, but that doesn’t equate to claiming that one has no moral reason to fight Y. — neomac
And what is the relation between Russian rich people being in a luxury yachts, while Russian children starve do death in their rubbish, with the fact that Russian soldiers are exterminating Ukrainian families and children? — neomac
if Zelensky’s moral stand and choices are to be assessed over a de facto situation or actual terms on the table (as you claim), then I don’t see why your moral stand and choices about this war can’t be assessed based on the actual clash between 2 de facto dominant powers, as you frame this war. — neomac
I talked about math because you talked about multi-causal theory and multi causal theories would allow to evaluate the exact or statistical relevance of a cause in a given output. — neomac
No single dimension is a priori sufficient for a moral assessment. — neomac
If you want to object to me for good, tell me if you would morally support Isis over America and why. — neomac
if you contrast Zelensky’s government with a Putin puppet, blaming the first while assuming more acceptable the second. — neomac
> It's absolutely absurd to suggest that every time I raise a criticism about a government decision, I'm calling for them to be deposed.
Where else did I do that? Can you fully quote me? — neomac
Poor people bring to life children that they are incapable of taking care of, don’t they have some responsibility for the death/sickness/starvation/misery of their children? — neomac
Palestinians bring to life children that they are incapable of fully protecting against the oppression of Israelis, don’t they have some responsibility for the death/sickness/starvation/misery of their children exposed to the Israelis’ oppression? — neomac
So shouldn’t they stop having children? — neomac
Ukrainians do not want to be eradicated from their lands nor they want their children to grow up under a Russian dictator capable of committing another Ukrainian genocide like the Holodomor, so they act accordingly. — neomac
BTW, for the third time, wouldn’t this line of reasoning of yours simply support whatever the status quo is (ruling class oppressing working class is a de facto situation right?), since no power (especially authoritarian) can be radically challenged without risking one’s (and often beloved ones’) material well-being and life? — neomac
if you were familiar with propositional logic, you would understand that my argument corresponds to the valid form:
p1. if p or q implies r
p2. p and q
c. r
So it totally follows. — neomac
> What I expect them to do is to offer concessions and make demands in the same way any party to a negotiation would.
What concessions and what demands do you expect them to do wrt Putin’s? — neomac
I don’t need to assume that the US leaders are acting out of moral intentions. All I claimed is that there are moral reasons to support Ukraine. — neomac
It’s enough to re-read what I wrote because I’ve already addressed this many times already: geopolitical entities per se have no moral agency — neomac
If making concessions and avoiding sanctions will consolidate Putin’s power as well as not making concessions and adopting sanctions, I think it’s indifferent which option is chosen. — neomac
My point was simply that I’m well aware that there are risks when taking position on such matters. Yet I don’t think that we can take risk-free decisions on such matters, nor we can simply suspend our judgment or action just because we can’t make enough risk-free decisions, if pressed by the events. — neomac
cruel and unfair treatment of people, especially by not giving them the same freedom, rights, etc. is morally defensible when it’s for punishing immoral people. — neomac
If one wants to explain why a negotiation fails, then either demands/grievances/expectations/complaints/wishes/concessions/requests/desires/[fill up as you please] are not perceived as acceptable and/or they are not addressed with enough assurance. And an alternative to 2 parties' strategies in terms of demands/grievances/expectations/complaints/wishes/concessions/requests/desires/[fill up as you please], can not possibly coincide with one of 2 parties' strategy. — neomac
> So If I think their standard of living will be considerably worse, then It's a reasonable position to take that involving the US is not worth the benefit.
You can take side in accordance to your beliefs. So do I. Now what? — neomac
> So why do you trust those who tell you that continuing to fight is better for the Ukrainian people? Why do you trust those who tell you that life under the terms of a US/European loan system will be better than one under Russian puppet government?
Never made such claims. — neomac
If the outcomes of strategic decisions are beyond your expertise, then why do you choose to trust the experts and leaders supporting your current position and not those supporting the alternatives?
I already answered: “So for what strategy is concerned I tend to defer more to the feedback of experts and leaders, and then double-check based on what I find logic or consistent with other sources and background knowledge” — neomac
What matters to me is what Ukrainians and Western leaders consider the “worst option” in geopolitically significant terms — neomac
Well. Maybe. But they surely must have heard that NATO will intervene if they use chemical weapons, or at least, this is what they've stated. — Manuel
This is what I’ve been thinking.Yet now we do have that bloody civil war of the former Soviet Union.
At least he has had no troubles of doing that partly for 8 years. So why take some more?
There's no reason why he now would have to stop. Do notice the logic behind terrorizing people to move away from their homes. Will he stop because of sanctions??? Lol. — ssu
At least he has had no troubles of doing that partly for 8 years. So why take some more?
There's no reason why he now would have to stop. Do notice the logic behind terrorizing people to move away from their homes. Will he stop because of sanctions??? Lol.
The only way Putin is going to come to the negotiation table is if a) Ukraine gives in to his demand or b) he has similar success in the Donbas as he had encircling Kyiv. — ssu
So what's the difference with France? — ssu
There are reports of Sarin gas being dropped from drones over Mariapol last night(11/04/22). — Punshhh
No, just the media reports and the Azov video. — Punshhh
there is no evidence Russia has brought any chemical weapons near Ukraine — https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/national-security/us-using-declassified-intel-fight-info-war-russia-even-intel-isnt-rock-rcna23014
I don't think there are any yet. — frank
Confirmation from multiple sources is usually given weight — frank
the Russians already threatened to use chem weapons — frank
You do realise that Russia can and will use chemical weapons with impunity, right?
For two reasons, it is what they have previously demonstrated to do, it’s in their playbook and they are safe behind a veil of plausible deniability. — Punshhh
So the first task is to determine which cases are black and white and which aren't.
Is that decision black and white? — Isaac
There is a lot more the West could do to ruin Russia's day, even without supplying manpower.
Giving Ukraine longer range missiles and technical assistance using them would make these multi-mile long convoys into death traps and greatly reduce the likelyhood that Russia can get its new offensive rolling. They have pretty garbage anti-missile defense. — Count Timothy von Icarus
Given Soviet era helicopters have been able to make it through the vaunted Russian AA to hit strategic targets in urban areas across the border, I don't know if this is exactly a sea change. NATO had plenty of leverage to keep Ukraine from using the missiles on Russia. They're clearly getting fed extremely accurate intelligence. The US basically published Russia's exact invasion plan before it started as a way to dissuade them, and AWACS are likely painting every Russian aircraft as it takes off. Hence the case of the missing Russian airforce and all the MANPAD shootdowns.reach into their territory
That low intensity war with Ukraine since 2014 wasn't cheap. And the about 13 000 casualties before this invasion tells that there obviously was a war.They weren't in a costly war for 8 years. — Benkei
I don't think Putin views this war from a cost / benefit stance were costs and benefits would be economic or monetary. Because then it really doesn't make any sense. No, I think he views this conflict like how he talks about it. This is his legacy, this is what is what the position of Russia. And in he can go after any opposition because it is undeclared wartime.In any case, at some point the costs don't outweigh the (potential) benefits any more. I would suspect that if Mariopol falls and control over the Donbass region would be obtained, that that too would count as a victory to him and would have him move to the negotiation table. — Benkei
Get involved in philosophical discussions about knowledge, truth, language, consciousness, science, politics, religion, logic and mathematics, art, history, and lots more. No ads, no clutter, and very little agreement — just fascinating conversations.