Speaking of "being free of the authoritarian bullshit", in what ways are we in the West "free of the authoritarian bullshit"?
— baker
Free speech — Christoffer
and you don't get imprisoned or killed if you criticize those in power.
It's quite clear what I'm speaking about, isn't it?
Western societies are the only ones that also have the ability and potential to change if destructive ways are discovered.
You think societies like Russia would care for actually changing transportation to renewable solutions? You think they would care about stuff like that or make any efforts to push for it?
Dreaming of utopian types of societies that have no practical or realistic existence right now is irrelevant. We can start with every nation granting constitutional free speech, free and independent media, and serious efforts to fight back against corruption. Laws that do not protect politicians and people in power but regulate them instead. Those kinds of things exist in western societies primarily and those are the ones I'm advocating for.
I'm asking you to find a better alternative, that exists today. Please present an alternative that actually counters my argument here, because I still haven't heard any actual and realistic alternative yet. It's so irrelevant to just say "west bad" and present nothing else that is practically possible if the result is Russia's population being free of their authoritarian boot.
Are you actually worried about the Russian people?
— baker
Uhhh, yeah, there are millions who don't want Putin and his bullshit, who want to live according to what I described as a free society. Why wouldn't I care for them?
Why do you think so many people try so hard to get into America? — RogueAI
That sounds like more pro-NATO propaganda from the Finnish outback. — Apollodorus
And you don't see an obvious lie when it's presented? In your postmodern life you are totally unable in every issue to do that?Both sides lie. So why believe one and not the other? — Isaac
Warned you about this ethnocentred trolling before. Do it again and there will be consequences. — Baden
No. It's almost exclusively imposed on them. Not only is the curriculum set at governmental level, but even if people are consulted, those consulted are adults and the education is for children. At no point are they involved in the process at all. — Isaac
I'm just sating critical thinking doesn't require any specialist equipment so there's no reason to assume indigenous cultures haven't already worked it out. — Isaac
It's no less than the argument you gave. You've not said anything more than that X is the case. I've countered that I disagree X is the case. — Isaac
Yes. My specialism in in the social construction of beliefs. — Isaac
This is what fascinates me about your approach here. I've said I'm a professor of Psychology, you seem to have no problem believing that (for now, at least). Then, when I raise a point of disagreement with you, you still think you have it right and I've got it wrong, even within the field you've just happily accepted I have spent a lifetime studying. Did it not even pass by your thought processes that you might just have this wrong? That, despite the fact that it feels right, you might have to accept things aren't as they seem? — Isaac
The evidence for there being a fact of the matter or teachable body of knowledge on the subject of critical thinking is extremely thin on the ground and I'd go as far as to say that current thinking in developmental psychology is heading in the direction of admitting that it can't be done pedagogically. What you certainly don't have is some clear unequivocal fact that critical thinking is a solid canon which can be taught through standard education. — Isaac
Again, there's little to no evidence that education (as in pedagogy) actually achieve this in the least. — Isaac
With the implication that there's no need for education, just let the parents teach their kids.
— Christoffer
Yes, that's right. — Isaac
In my perspective, that is how you keep a people stuck in traditions and more easily keep them in control of authoritarian systems.
— Christoffer
Again, the direct evidence is thin to non-existent for this. Self- or home- education does not yield less (or more) authoritarian societies. I've studied the education methods of large numbers of hunter-gatherer tribes, as well as small networks of home-educated groups in England. none show the trends associated with indoctrinate teaching among, say, religious groups or some of the remote agriculturalist tribes. Education method is not the deciding factor in the imposition of indoctrination. It has far more to do with social structure and economic conditions. — Isaac
Then why haven't those nations already done it? What are they natively lacking which has prevented this? — Isaac
I have no objection to the widespread sharing of facts. Sharing facts and 'education' are not the same thing. — Isaac
Most of the time educational content forms as a synthesis of previous knowledge, and from all over the world.
— Christoffer
No it doesn't. The curricula in schools and colleges is almost 100% that of white western males. — Isaac
Literacy is not the issue here. Children are perfectly capable of learning to read, write and do arithmetic entirely of their own volition without any schools at all, they need only the time and materials — Isaac
I'm arguing for education, quality education in a shape and form that is free from political influence of any kind. That focuses on knowledge from all over the world that is a synthesis of all the best knowledge, facts, and methods that humanity as a whole has to offer.
— Christoffer
Regardless of my opposition to formal education, let's say you're right. With no racist overtones, you'd have no reason at all to explain why they haven't already done this other than the material condition preventing them. So remove those material constraints. No further action is required. Remove the material constraints prevent people from developing their own education systems from their own cultural heritage. Nothing else need be done. Its the material constraints that matter. — Isaac
logical thinking methods are not some external discovery which must be taught, they are a natural part of normal human thought. — Isaac
What makes you think the farmers of Senegal don't already have this knowledge? Are you saying their poor education is responsible for the food shortages, and not - for example - the fact that they were so heavily in debt to rich western institution that they had to export products to make repayments? — Isaac
the knowledge of critical thinking I'm referring to is not some "westernized" idea, it has formed out of thousands of years of philosophy from all over the world, but established itself primarily within western philosophy as practice.
— Christoffer
As I've mentioned. This is far from established fact. — Isaac
I think I've made it relatively clear, but if not already - critical thinking skills are endemic to humans, they don't need teaching, they are suppressed by scarcity and the removal of such scarcity is all that is required to encourage them. I should be clear here that scarcity does not only refer to economic scarcity. The details are way off topic for a thread about Ukraine. — Isaac
The things you mention starts with people well educated to handle those things
— Christoffer
There's no evidence for this at all. — Isaac
education and development aid, growth in fair trade, reduction of debt, withdrawal of support for corrupt regimes. — Isaac
Maybe hundreds of years of imperial interference robbed them...
— Christoffer
Yeah, maybe. Or maybe not. The rest is just conjecture. — Isaac
Classic. You'd rather develop some convoluted story about how I've managed to become a professor of Psychology yet still hold the (obviously wrong) beliefs rather than simply come to terms with the possibility you might be wrong. — Isaac
Incidentally, this is what most of my research was actually on (the reason I engage with these threads at all), the tools people use to defend beliefs as they're challenged. — Isaac
Here, the most 'logical' thing to do (assuming you're happy with my assertion that I am, in fact, a professor of Psychology) is for you to wonder where you went wrong. — Isaac
To enquire what misstep you have made in reaching a conclusion that an expert in the matter has questioned. But instead, you reach for an alternative (far less plausible) narrative to protect you from having to rethink your conclusions. — Isaac
You'll assume I'm lying perhaps (without any cause, nor realising what immense problems that would bring me on a public forum), or I've somehow made it to this level without having a basic understanding of how people learn. Both less plausible stories than that you've just got something wrong. — Isaac
I'm not really interested in discussing practical solutions. I think it's quite inane to do so on a public forum full of laymen. I'm only really interested in how you present your beliefs and how you respond when challenged. — Isaac
We will rebuild the Roman Empire and this time through the power of ideas, not by force of arms.
by the Committee’s intervention and that of the organizations grouped within it, its action will consist in demonstrating to governments, parliaments and public opinion their determination to see the Messina resolution of June 2nd become a veritable step toward a United States of Europe … To achieve these objectives, it is necessary to put aside all specious solutions. Mere cooperation between governments will not suffice. It is indispensable for States to delegate certain of their powers to European federal institutions. At the same time the close association of Great Britain with these new accomplishments must be assured …
Under Trajan the Roman Empire, at its greatest extent, encompassed the entire Mediterranean region, but also parts of present-day Germany, Britain, Romania, Turkey, Syria and Armenia. The European Union is preparing to build a similar empire.
Roman law played an important role in the expansion of the Roman Empire; and the EU relies on the export of its law, and the extraterritorial effect of the case law of the European Court of Justice (ECJ).
The EU has concluded bilateral association treaties with four former Soviet republics, Ukraine, Georgia, Moldova and Armenia, under which these countries are aligning their legislation in important fields with EU law. The ECJ has a monopoly in the interpretation of treaty law which is identical in substance to EU law. Since each side can bring a dispute before the ECJ unilaterally, the European Commission may take a case to its own court and thus has a de facto right of surveillance over the associated states.
The same system is now to be set up for Morocco, Algeria, Tunisia, Libya, Egypt, Jordan, Lebanon, Israel, Palestine and Syria …
Someone asked a seasoned bank robber why he robbed banks. "Because that's where the money is", he replied. — unenlightened
I do not recall a single day of my life when I had "free speech". — baker
The scope of the consequences of criticizing those in power is a practical matter, not a moral one.
In the West, a common consequence of criticizing those in power is loss of job, loss of reputation, loss of clients. In some banana republic, people also get evicted, imprisoned, maimed, killed.
This difference can lead one to conclude that the powers that be in the West have respect for human life, while those in a banana republic don't. Such a conclusion would be a hasty one. The Western powers that be merely have more practical resources than those in a banana republic. If, however, those resources become scarce, the difference disappears. As can be seen when the police use real bullets to shoot protesters. — baker
I want you to spell it out, so that I can use it as a reference. — baker
Western societies are the only ones that also have the ability and potential to change if destructive ways are discovered.
I'll meet you at zero carbon footprint. — baker
You think societies like Russia would care for actually changing transportation to renewable solutions? You think they would care about stuff like that or make any efforts to push for it?
A part of them do. Just like only a part of Westerners do. — baker
Dreaming of utopian types of societies that have no practical or realistic existence right now is irrelevant. We can start with every nation granting constitutional free speech, free and independent media, and serious efforts to fight back against corruption. Laws that do not protect politicians and people in power but regulate them instead. Those kinds of things exist in western societies primarily and those are the ones I'm advocating for.
Talk about dreaming of utopian types of societies that have no practical or realistic existence right now!
Just try being poor in a first-world country. — baker
Seems more like patronizing, rather than care. — baker
We're not talking about levels of resources here, but an authoritarian government limiting free speech. — Christoffer
Putin has absolute control and runs his country like a Mafia boss. — Punshhh
some victims in Bucha were “shot and killed in the back of their heads,” while “some were shot on the street, others thrown into wells”. The graphic images have led to global condemnation of Russian President Vladimir Putin and demands he be tried for war crimes.
In his first speech to the [UN Security Council] since the invasion more than a month ago, Zelensky said he did not wish to negotiate with Russia and would rather a powerless and outdated UN purge Russia of the veto power it wields on the Security Council. Failing that, the organisation should dissolve itself, he said.
“This undermines the whole architecture of global security, it allows them to go unpunished so they are destroying everything that they can,” he said, adding that Russia’s leadership was acting like “colonisers from ancient times”.
“It is obvious that the key institution of the world which must ensure the coercion of any aggressor to peace simply cannot work effectively.” — SMH
I was referring to this case:
Siberia Airlines Flight 1812 was a commercial flight shot down by the Ukrainian Air Force over the Black Sea on 4 October 2001, en route from Tel Aviv, Israel to Novosibirsk, Russia. The aircraft, a Soviet-made Tupolev Tu-154, carried 66 passengers and 12 crew members. — ssu
I'm not so sure how Curtis LeMay thought about it. He perhaps would have wanted have that nuclear war in 1962 during the Cuban Missile Crisis, when Russia had only a few ICBMs. He surely saw the "brief but bloody" war something that would prevent from the "long and bloody" war, which is quite dubious. — ssu
Air Force General Thomas Power, who once asked officials at the RAND Corporation why they were concerned about keeping down body counts on both sides in the event of a nuclear conflict. “The whole idea is to kill the bastards,” he cried. “At the end of the war if there are two Americans and one Russian left alive, we win.” (LeMay, who was the model for General Jack D. Ripper in Stanley Kubrick’s classic Dr. Strangelove, thought Power “not stable.”)
The graphic images have led to global condemnation of Russian President Vladimir Putin and demands he be tried for war crimes. — SMH
So - is Zelenskyy right? — Wayfarer
But according to NATO propaganda, it’s OK for the EU to rebuild and expand the Roman Empire, but not for Russia to resist EU expansion …. — Apollodorus
How can you be certain of that? A nuclear change could have also resulted in just millions of dying yet in a stalemate like in the Korean war and the Soviet Union still persisting with only now the World having experienced a wider nuclear war. And some American cities being destroyed.I see the rationality of Curtis LeMays' view: it would have resulted in submissive, united Russia, prosperous and peaceful. — FreeEmotion
Or he might become more menacing and march across Macedonia, link up with Orban, just keep heading west. — Punshhh
Putin's pro-American plan was not simply tactical. Putin's policies of support after September 11, including his agreement to an American military presence in Central Asia, represented a significant shift in Russian foreign policy. The potential for breakthrough - for a fundamentally new and improved relationship between Russia and the West - has never been greater. — Carnegie
Those who see sphere's of influence as an obvious reality, greater countries dominating weaker ones and annexations of territories of sovereign states as totally justified simply don't care about issues like that.How about asking the Ukrainians? About Ukraine, you know, where they live (and are now bombed)? About what they want? — jorndoe
Being dependent on energy from a totalitarian regime like Putin's Russia, which will use that dependence as a way to imply pressure has been a wrong policy. That energy policy has to be changed. Germany should show resolve in this too. Hopefully it will change it's policies.What really pisses me off is how no European government calls it out, while we're the ones that run all the major risks, because of financial risks and energy dependence, right after the Ukrainians. — Benkei
And you don't see an obvious lie when it's presented? — ssu
So - is Zelenskyy right? Should Russia be expelled from the UN Security Council? If a country is committing criminal acts, doesn't its presence on this council vitiate the chance of it being held responsible by that council? — Wayfarer
But according to NATO propaganda, it’s OK for the EU to rebuild and expand the Roman Empire, but not for Russia to resist EU expansion …. — Apollodorus
I agree with you here but for different reasons. That Russia’s army is incompetent with poor equipment. They can’t even occupy Ukraine, so are not going to continue west.Because this is the rational and intelligent thing to do? I don't think these fears are founded. Putin threatening using nukes is to clarify NATO shouldn't get involved. What else would there be to it? What exactly did he say making you think he meant more?
Being dependent on energy from a totalitarian regime like Putin's Russia, which will use that dependence as a way to imply pressure has been a wrong policy. That energy policy has to be changed. Germany should show resolve in this too. Hopefully it will change it's policies. — ssu
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