• universeness
    113

    Ok, I think I misunderstood your meaning with the use of 'discomfort associated with stopping'. I thought you meant something along the lines of 'people are scared to stop what they are doing in case they never start again.' Disturbed sleep is certainly a major concern but I wonder if it was not ever thus.
    Can you think of many times in history when the majority of people were under less stress?
    World war, local war, majority poverty, famine, pestilence, scary reptiles invading your cave at night!
    The threat of hell and damnation if you did not comply with invented religious directives, etc etc
  • universeness
    113

    Really? I stated human and not monkey deliberately.
  • hopeful
    2
    I can understand where the OP is coming from. I have a fear of sleep not because I think I wont wake up but because I think I am missing out on life which is itself limited.
  • Agent Smith
    1.2k
    Really? I stated human and not monkey deliberately.universeness

    Human/monkey mind is not an object that can be "contained" in a human/monkey brain. Do legs "contain" walking?
  • universeness
    113


    Nonsense, The human mind is contained in the human brain. The same applies to monkeys. Do you think you would still have a mind, if your brain is removed and destroyed, but your brainless body is still maintained?(probably not medically possible yet)

    Walking is a coordinated action of the objects called legs, people without legs cant walk. Even one-legged humans cant walk without a prosthetic. Legs are capable of many other actions, kicking, skipping, jumping etc
  • Raymond
    649
    The threat of hell and damnation if you did not comply with invented religious directivesuniverseness

    Don't forget the actual occurrence of hell on Earth for people who don't and didn't comply with the invented directives of science. Actual hell seems a lot scarier than an imaginary.
  • emancipate
    356
    Don't forget the actual occurrence of hell on Earth for people who don't and didn't comply with the invented directives of science.Raymond

    For example?
  • Raymond
    649


    Most people living in indigenous communities. The communities were simply wiped off from the face of the Earth. Children taken away from them to teach them the western way.
  • universeness
    113


    "Don't forget the actual occurrence of hell on Earth for people who don't and didn't comply with the invented directives of science. Actual hell seems a lot scarier than an imaginary."

    Nonsense! and hell is not scary as it does not exist. Don't try to pass on the fear you obviously feel yourself in the dark places. These are just indoctrinations forced upon. you in your more vulnerable years. I have defeated such irrational fears. I have personally challenged any god, to visit me anytime and demonstrate its power. The best you will get is humans who delude themselves that they will act against you in their gods name and then claim their god is working through them.

    "Most people living in indigenous communities. The communities were simply wiped off from the face of the Earth. Children taken away from them to teach them the western way"

    Yeah, in almost every case this was done 'in the name of god'. It has been ever thus!
  • Raymond
    649
    Nonsense! and hell is not scary as it does not exist. Don't try to pass on the fear you obviously feel yourself in the dark places. These are just indoctrinations forced upon. you in your more vulnerable yearsuniverseness

    What on Earth are you talking about? You think I have fear of the gods? Absolutely not. I just care about their creation.

    Yeah, in almost every case this was done 'in the name of god'. It has been ever thus!universeness

    Without the aids of science this couldn't be done! Science is just a modern day story of creation. And just as in the old days of God, it's obligatory to learn globally and forbids other means of living because it has joined with the state.
  • Raymond
    649
    Nonsense! and hell is not scary as it does not existuniverseness

    "Now I have become death, the destroyer of worlds"

    Oppenheimer about his toy. Russia is mad enough to use it. As America and NATO generals. Ain't that hell on Earth? I prefer hell below.
  • universeness
    113


    "What on Earth are you talking about? You think I have fear of the gods? Absolutely not. I just care about their creation"

    Ok I accept that, so why mention Hell? The intention of this word is to conjure an image of a place of disgusting and vile punishment of individuals who have rejected gods as non-existent. People like me. To try to play down that true intention of that word is just sophistry and it is sinister. I am not accusing you of having that purpose but many theists do. If you need the source of our existence, God then thats fine. If your god image is a non-intervening god then fine. I don't have a deep problem with the diest position. I have even more patience for some of the theosophists, the panpsychists, the cosmopsychists, etc (I was a cosmopsychist for years, especially after watching Babylon 5 and listening to the musings of Delenn of the Minbari) but now I think such is pointless, as I would ask why the need for such? but maybe you feel, you do need such and its not my business why. Perhaps you take the view of the likes of Jordan Peterson who says it would take him at least 10 hours to start to explain why he believes in God.

    The idea of people experiencing hell on Earth, I completely appreciate but I am with the late, great Christopher Hitchens who commented that (not a direct quote, a paraphrase from memory)
    'You can die on Earth and the suffering stops, in hell, the suffering is eternal, there is no escape.'
    This is one of the nastiest inventions the human mind has spewed forth and it is totally false. Not a scrap of evidence.

    "Without the aids of science this couldn't be done! Science is just a modern day story of creation. And just as in the old days of God, it's obligatory to learn globally and forbids other means of living because it has joined with the state.

    "Now I have become death, the destroyer of worlds"

    Oppenheimer about his toy. Russia is mad enough to use it. As America and NATO generals. Ain't that hell on Earth? I prefer hell below"

    Here your mixing politics and science and conflating religion with science.
    Bombs and bullets don't kill people, people kill people.
    As I said, no, there is no hell on Earth because suffering ends at death.
  • emancipate
    356
    Most people living in indigenous communities. The communities were simply wiped off from the face of the Earth. Children taken away from them to teach them the western way.Raymond

    Doubt this had much to do with science.
  • Agent Smith
    1.2k
    Nonsense, The human mind is contained in the human brain. The same applies to monkeys. Do you think you would still have a mind, if your brain is removed and destroyed, but your brainless body is still maintained?(probably not medically possible yet)

    Walking is a coordinated action of the objects called legs, people without legs cant walk. Even one-legged humans cant walk without a prosthetic. Legs are capable of many other actions, kicking, skipping, jumping etc
    universeness

    Perhaps we don't have the same ideas about what we mean by "mind", "contains", and "brain", emphasis on the second word. In other words, we disagree on the relevant terms.

    Lungs contain air, but it hardly seems appropriate to say the lungs contain breathing!
  • universeness
    113


    Yeah but you are just playing with words, in the same way as David Bowie (I'm a big fan by the way)
    used to put some songs together by moving clever words and phrases around on a table and deciding which combinations sounded good.

    A similar idea would be 'A wine barrel contains wine or air, maybe even wood but you can't say it contains drinking.'
    It's just nonsense. You then try to conflate towards your hidden intention, which is to suggest that based on such skewed logic, the human mind is not, or at least not fully, contained in the human brain..... therefore..... consciousness outside of the human brain..... leading to what....god perhaps?
    Come on....give us all a break!
  • Raymond
    649


    I have to stand up for the agent here. Mind is contained in the brain, but it is no thing. Like charge is contained in matter, mind in contained in brain. How does it feel to be a charged particle? Fabulous!

    Sleeping is waking up from the harsh game of reality. It's nothing to fear, nor is death. Worse than reality it can't get. Some dreams entered are mares in the night, like their daytime counterparts in the physical, and some of them I don't wish to come true...
  • universeness
    113


    "Mind is contained in the brain, but it is no thing. Like charge is contained in matter, mind in contained in brain. How does it feel to be a charged particle? Fabulous!"

    Sorry Raymond cant make much sense of this maybe due to typing on your wee phone.

    "Sleeping is waking up from the harsh game of reality. It's nothing to fear, nor is death. Worse than reality it can't get. Some dreams entered are mares in the night, like their daytime counterparts in the physical, and some of them I don't wish to come true..."

    I can understand some of this but its perhaps a bit too cryptic for me. I don't know what point you are making
  • Raymond
    649
    I can understand some of this but its perhaps a bit too cryptic for me. I don't know what point you are makinguniverseness

    Well, the charge is "stuff" inside matter. It doesn't resemble matter, so it's non-material "stuff".
  • universeness
    113
    "Well, the charge is "stuff" inside matter. It doesn't resemble matter, so it's non-material "stuff"."

    Charge is simply an attribute of some subatomic particles. A source or sink for electric fields.
    I don't think there is much traction between the concept of an attribute of a particle and the concept that the human mind is fully contained in the human brain.
    You would require evidence which was telekinetic or telepathic etc to demonstrate that any aspect of the human mind can permeate outside of the human brain or body, not simplistic comparisons with subatomic particle attributes.
  • Raymond
    649
    Charge is simply an attribute of some subatomic particles. A source or sink for electric fields.universeness

    Simply an attribute? Then what is it?
  • Raymond
    649


    Dunno... Who's under it?
  • Raymond
    649
    I don't think there is much traction between the concept of an attribute of a particle and the concept that the human mind is fully contained in the human brain.
    You would require evidence which was telekinetic or telepathic etc to demonstrate that any aspect of the human mind can permeate outside of the human brain or body, not simplistic comparisons with subatomic particle attributes.
    universeness

    The point is, materialists think the mind is the effect of a huge collection of ordered particles interacting with the physical world. They think that matter is just matter. But physicists unknowingly introduced the notion of the conscious when introducing charge. It's that which produces force fields. If you think deeper about it, you will see they don't have an answer what it really is. String theory says it's a vibration of the string. What then makes it vibrate? One of the reasons string theory is non sense. It's exactly the non explainability of charge that makes the conscious inexplicable. Outside the mind we can see the material aspects of the brains of other people (veeeery limited though). Inside it you can feel it.
  • Raymond
    649


    If the mind can leave the body, yes. Some body once. But then the body has now fallen apart. Without charge the brain can't even develop, nor the body nor the world.
  • The Opposite
    1.1k
    without charge?

    I've seen a ghost before. It was the spirit of a man in a rock on a coastal road in the Philippines. I think he was watching me drive by.
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