I wonder how stoicism relates to antinatalism? The stoic acknowledges the pain aspect of life but I haven't heard of a stoic recommending antinatalism. Why? Perhaps antinatalists suffer from allodynia or hyperalgesia but then it's possible that stoics are lepers, unable/incapable of appreciating the full severity of the problem of suffering. I dunno.

For anyone interested, starts online tomorrow ! — Amity

I'll take my lead from Sa-go-ye-wat-ha for the time being.

On the off chance the Stoics are "selling" something, it's not magic they're selling, but how to deal with the practical concerns of daily life and the world. — Caldwell

I hope you didn't think I used the word "selling." As evidenced from my post, quite the opposite. I may have been wrong regarding their alleged concern with how to deal with the practical concerns of daily life (I though they were beyond that BS) but I certainly never considered a stoic as concerned with selling.

I hope you didn't think I used the word "selling." — James Riley

No I didn't. But the word "magic" triggered "snake oil", and snake oil triggered "selling.

But the word "magic" triggered "snake oil", and snake oil triggered "selling. — Caldwell

:ok: I guess the context from my other posts was missing.

:wink:

I'll take my lead from Sa-go-ye-wat-ha for the time being. — James Riley

Good for you. It's not an either/or.
I'm pretty lazy and have skipped parts - already covered 43% of it.
Free downloads can be read or listened to later.

I certainly never considered a stoic as concerned with selling. — James Riley

Why not ? They got a living to make.
Like any kind of philosophy, there are ideas to sell.
To buy or not to buy...
Depends on the needs/wants of the customer.

Right now, I'm finding modern Stoicism and its presentation - hmmm...underwhelming.
Not committed to it but will spend a few minutes a day to peek in.

If @Shawn registers - might be interesting to compare thoughts.
Monday's Daily Card quote is the Serenity Prayer without God. Yippee.

If Shawn registers - might be interesting to compare thoughts. — Amity

*Wallow wallow*



It's a pigs life.

Good for you. — Amity

Thanks!

Why not ? They got a living to make. — Amity

I was operating under a misconception about what stoicism was/is.

It's a pigs life. — Shawn

As you were/are/will be.
Enjoy.

I was operating under a misconception about what stoicism was/is. — James Riley

So, from a position of ignorance ?
And no interest ?
That's fine too.
Prego :cool:

So, from a position of ignorance ? — Amity

Misconception does not equal ignorance.

And no interest ? — Amity

I had an interest, but not enough to pursue it once I cleared up my misconception.

That's fine too. — Amity

Thanks!

Misconception does not equal ignorance. — James Riley

Right. And that's not what I said. You know that.

Ignorance is a lack of knowledge and information.
Misconception ​is a belief or an idea that is not based on correct information, or that is not understood by people.

Misconceptions can arise from a position of ignorance.
Where did yours come from ?

I had an interest, but not enough to pursue it once I cleared up my misconception — James Riley

What is your understanding now?

Answers to be in essay form. Minimum word count = 200.

Thanks — James Riley

Again, prego :cool:

As you were/are/will be. — Amity

Of course I regard Chrysippus laughing at the donkey eating figs and then suggesting that it should have some wine with it as someone worth reading.

Now that is ignorance of a different kind.
Bye.

What would you refer me to read, @Amity?

Your self.

Now that is ignorance of a different kind.
Bye. — Amity

Almost as ignorant as this:

Answers to be in essay form. Minimum word count = 200. — Amity

Prego.

Adios, MFr.

Adios, MFr — James Riley

:party:

I think I shall read something on Stoic logic.

https://www.historyoflogic.com/logic-stoics.htm

Knock yourself out :party:

They [modern-day stoics] have abandoned the metaphysical underpinnings of Stoicism, which, however, are of vital importance for contextualizing Stoic ethics, making them actionable, without too much difficulty and regret.
— baker

This isn’t a very objectionable claim, being so oddly expressed, but it feels like I should object, so I will object, and demand that you at least try to substantiate it. — praxis

I'm pretty sure we've been over this at least once. E.g. https://thephilosophyforum.com/discussion/comment/543997

I never viewed the Stoic as a Carpe Diem entity. I always thought Jordan Petersons lobster eating SSRI taking bloke was closer to what can be conceived as a Stoic. — Shawn

No. You must envision a proud and capable military general as an exemplary Stoic.

You were saying something about the modern stoic being prone to quietism and I speculated that the pantheist may be more prone to quietism than the modern-day person because they may have an inclination to commune with God, rather than be a military general or whatever. Also, 180 pointed out several modern-day stoic military generals.

I don't see the point of making these claims if you're not going to try substantiating them. Are you just trolling?

No. You must envision a proud and capable military general as an exemplary Stoic. — baker

Will the fashion for Stoicism ever end? I've read Marcus Aurelius and Seneca's letters and found them of little interest (not that this impacts on the matter). Given what you said, can an ordinary plonker be a Stoic, or is that just a middle-class lifestyle fantasy?

This really isn't rocket science. But yes, modern-day people tend to lack a sense of proper pride and dignity, so they can't relate to those who have them.

Drop political correctness for a moment and try to envision yourself as a powerful member of a powerful tribe. Can you do it?

That's in roundabout how the Stoic feels about himself, except that his reference frame isn't the powerful tribe, but Nature, the Divine.

Given what you said, can an ordinary plonker be a Stoic, or is that just a middle-class lifestyle fantasy? — Tom Storm

To the former -- probably not. The plebeian is just not fit to be a Stoic.

To the latter -- yes. Normal middle-class people shudder at the mere thought of taking seriously ideas that there are gods, or that we're all part of a whole, that all is determined, etc. So they whittle Stoicism down to something politically correct, something palatable for the middle class and the bourgeoisie, but this way, they also render it impotent. Jordan Peterson's lobster eating SSRI taking bloke?! Eh. I think Stoicism is actually so "far out there" that much of it doesn't even register in the minds of many modern people.

Personally, I read the writings of the Stoics in the sense as if they were written by a rich, powerful, healthy man. Read otherwise, they are just depressing.

Will the fashion for Stoicism ever end? I've read Marcus Aurelius and Seneca's letters and found them of little interest (not that this impacts on the matter). Given what you said, can an ordinary plonker be a Stoic, or is that just a middle-class lifestyle fantasy? — Tom Storm

:up: I admit I came at this thread with a misconception. However, after reading some definitions, and some of the posts of those who either pretend to stoicism, or who have redefined it, I'm pretty much "meh" about it. I see great opportunity for a fallacy of gravitas to find a home in it.

Personally, I read the writings of the Stoics in the sense as if they were written by a rich, powerful, healthy man. Read otherwise, they are just depressing. — baker

That is my sense too. Thanks.

I see great opportunity for a fallacy of gravitas to find a home in it. — James Riley

Nice line. :up:

This really isn't rocket science. But yes, modern-day people tend to lack a sense of proper pride and dignity, so they can't relate to those who have them. — baker

Modern-day stoicism is all about well-being, and well-being is not opposed to a proper (not deficient or excessive) sense of pride and dignity. Indeed, this really isn't rocket science.

Drop political correctness for a moment and try to envision yourself as a powerful member of a powerful tribe. Can you do it? — baker

I’m not a powerful member of a powerful tribe, but I can fantasize that I am. Are you suggesting that ancient stoics were all a bunch of daydreamers?

That's in roundabout how the Stoic feels about himself, except that his reference frame isn't the powerful tribe, but Nature, the Divine. — baker

Why would that be necessary to practice stoicism?

Will the fashion for Stoicism ever end? I've read Marcus Aurelius and Seneca's letters and found them of little interest (not that this impacts on the matter). Given what you said, can an ordinary plonker be a Stoic, or is that just a middle-class lifestyle fantasy? — Tom Storm

With reference to Stoic Week and the course events/videos/discussions:
https://modernstoicism.com/stoic-week/

It is not necessarily about becoming a Stoic but ( amongst other things ) seeing the relationship between Ancient Stoicism and modern psychotherapy - especially cognitive behavioural therapy (CBT).

Tuesday's video re the cognitive nature of emotions by Donald Robertson (18:10) is excellent.
Ancient Stoics mentioned: Seneca, Epictetus and Marcus Aurelius.
The 'lecture' is informal, explaining concepts and practical techniques with lightness and humour.
Concepts such as 'cognitive distancing' and the 'view from above'.
The wearing of catastrophic v opportunity tinted glasses. And so on.

I'd be interested to hear your thoughts on this, given your background.
Also from others following this discussion.

At (15:00), Donald turns to how he trains psychotherapists in the technique of:
"What's probably gonna happen next ?"...