• baker
    2.5k
    Let's not then. What would you replace that power with. Criminals all get treated the same regardless of their mental health? The judge just guesses? We put it to a vote? What is it you think we should be doing instead of making diagnoses based on educated guesswork?Isaac
    What are you, as a psychologist, willing to sacrifice in order to reduce the stigma of a psychiatric diagnosis?

    Answer this, and you'll have a context for the above.


    Psychology could cure cancer, find the Holy Grail, and win England the World Cup and it's reputation would remain unaltered amoung the ranks of the bizarre crusade this thread is on.

    If literally nothing I say is contributing to the collective thought process anyway then I might as well swear like a sailor.

    When posting Cambridge University School of Psychology's definition of what psychology covers hasn't budged people an inch from their lazy, puerile assumption that psychology is "Freud 'n that init", what more could I possibly do? Lobotomy?
    Isaac
    There is a stereotype about psychologists that says that psychologists have a poor grasp of human nature. Psychologists seem to be really eager to prove this, as often as humanly possible ...

    The negative reactions you often see to psychologists is when people resent the legal power that psychologists have.
  • baker
    2.5k
    It's been about how people should be, and how they might become that way if they aren't so already.
    — baker

    And psychologists have certainly done a fine job on that project!
    Bitter Crank
    Oh yes. That's why people vote for Trump.
  • magritte
    302
    WTF? :chin:TheMadFool
    Science is what science does not what you say.
  • magritte
    302
    There is a stereotype about psychologistsbaker

    Psychologists and philosophers are equally subject to stupid stereotyping because people don't care enough to try to understand. This is also true of almost all academic disciplines and professions.
  • baker
    2.5k
    Psychologists and philosophers are equally subject to stupid stereotyping because people don't care enough to try to understand. This is also true of almost all academic disciplines and professions.magritte

    Oh? It's people who don't care? Or is it that almost no academic disciplines and professions care about people?

    People should care about psychologists, but psychologists should not have to care about people, right.
  • magritte
    302
    It's all you. You probably say the same of all healthcare workers. You're perfect and everyone else is uncaring of perfect you.

    Professionals are part of a system. If they don't do their jobs according to their system then it's up to the system to correct that. If you disagree then go complain, but don't just throw shee at everyone in site.

    Mental health workers don't have the means or time to treat more than the symptoms with medications. Sad, but true.
  • TheMadFool
    12k
    Science is what science does not what you say.magritte

    That's alright by me but I'm only toeing the official line here.
  • Isaac
    5.3k


    I have absolutely no idea what any of that means, but I'm delighted by the complete absurdity of it all. I sincerely hope it has no connection to the OP at all and it's a masterful stroke of Dadaism, but I suspect there'll be some more tralatitious meaning...?
  • Richard B
    61
    Wittgenstein wrote this in his last section Philosophical Investigations “The confusion and barrenness of psychology is not to be explained by calling it a “young science”; its state is not comparable with that of physics, for instance, in its beginnings. (Rather with that of certain branches of mathematics. Set Theory). For in psychology there are experimental methods and conceptual confusion. (As in the other case conceptual confusion and methods of proof.)

    The existence of the experimental method makes us think we have the means of solving the problems which trouble us; though problem and method pass one another by.”
  • bongo fury
    1.2k


    If you clicked the first link, what did you hear?

    Perhaps the stimulus was too noisy, literally.

    Anyway, just sharing some lovely (perhaps inauthentic) social history.

    No aspersions or barbs.

    Carry on.
  • Isaac
    5.3k
    What are you, as a psychologist, willing to sacrifice in order to reduce the stigma of a psychiatric diagnosis?

    Answer this, and you'll have a context for the above.
    baker

    I'm really not sure what you think I could do. I was a researcher for most of my career. Now I mainly help organisations include human factors in their long-term risk analysis. What would you have me do differently to effect a change in the stigma associated with psychiatric diagnosis? I really would be glad to help, but I haven't a clue how.

    There is a stereotype about psychologists that says that psychologists have a poor grasp of human nature.baker

    Is there? And..?

    The negative reactions you often see to psychologists is when people resent the legal power that psychologists have.baker

    Really? Do we see the same with judges, barristers, solicitors, policemen, doctors, forensic lab technicians, and graphologists?
  • Isaac
    5.3k
    If you clicked the first link, what did you hear?bongo fury

    Something about ketchup?

    just sharing some lovely (perhaps inauthentic) social history.

    No aspersions or barbs.
    bongo fury

    Cool.
  • bongo fury
    1.2k


    :rofl:

    "... an' they catch 'im... an' they say e's mental!!"

    I think that final gem is the culmination of the speech by the boy pictured (used earlier in the track).

    Hopefully you can see the passing relevance.
  • Isaac
    5.3k
    "... an' they catch 'im... an' they say e's mental!!"bongo fury

    Ah.

    'Ketchup' was better...

    Hopefully you can see the passing relevance.bongo fury

    I do now, yes.
  • baker
    2.5k
    What are you, as a psychologist, willing to sacrifice in order to reduce the stigma of a psychiatric diagnosis?

    Answer this, and you'll have a context for the above.
    — baker

    I'm really not sure what you think I could do. I was a researcher for most of my career. Now I mainly help organisations include human factors in their long-term risk analysis. What would you have me do differently to effect a change in the stigma associated with psychiatric diagnosis? I really would be glad to help, but I haven't a clue how.
    Isaac
    There you go.

    Is it not the case that you hold a vested interest in the proliferation of the stigma associated with psychiatric diagnosis?

    The stigma is, after all, what makes the psychiatric diagnosis so powerful and so relevant. Without the stigma, psychiatric diagnosis would be triflesome.

    There is a stereotype about psychologists that says that psychologists have a poor grasp of human nature.
    — baker
    Is there? And..?
    Yes. From what I've seen, psychologists tend to try really hard to live up to that stereotype. Maybe it's a professional deformation. Maybe it's something deeper than that.

    The negative reactions you often see to psychologists is when people resent the legal power that psychologists have.
    — baker

    Really? Do we see the same with judges, barristers, solicitors, policemen, doctors, forensic lab technicians, and graphologists?
    We can see it with anyone who is in some important way more powerful than we are.
    But psychologists are in a rare position to have the insight into this, due to the nature of their field of study.
  • baker
    2.5k
    It's all you. You probably say the same of all healthcare workers. You're perfect and everyone else is uncaring of perfect you.magritte
    *sigh*

    Professionals are part of a system. If they don't do their jobs according to their system then it's up to the system to correct that. If you disagree then go complain, but don't just throw shee at everyone in site.

    Mental health workers don't have the means or time to treat more than the symptoms with medications. Sad, but true.

    If they persist in that system, they become complicit in whatever said system does.
  • baker
    2.5k
    I think some people have seen movies like One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest too many times.Tom Storm
    Besides, that film is a cautionary tale about what one should expect if one tries to play the system.
  • Isaac
    5.3k
    Is it not the case that you hold a vested interest in the proliferation of the stigma associated with psychiatric diagnosis?

    The stigma is, after all, what makes the psychiatric diagnosis so powerful and so relevant. Without the stigma, psychiatric diagnosis would be triflesome.
    baker

    Did you even read what I wrote? I don't have anything whatsoever to do with the diagnosis of mental disorders. Nothing.

    From what I've seen, psychologists tend to try really hard to live up to that stereotype. Maybe it's a professional deformation. Maybe it's something deeper than that.baker

    Or maybe it's because you're forming your judgment about an entire international field of research, teaching and practice based on the six people you happen to have met...?
  • baker
    2.5k
    Did you even read what I wrote? I don't have anything whatsoever to do with the diagnosis of mental disorders. Nothing.Isaac
    Sometimes, you can be really narrow and petty.

    Sure, you, in particular, might not be in the business of diagnosing some other people, but you have worked in a field for which as a whole, diagnosing people is an important activity, both theoretically and practically. You belong to that field. What applies to that field, directly or indirectly applies to you.

    That, and you were the one bringing up the issue of wanting to reduce the stigma of psychiatric diagnosis, and asked for suggestions on how to do this.

    Or maybe it's because you're forming your judgment about an entire international field of research, teaching and practice based on the six people you happen to have met...?
    *sigh*
    No, my not so favorable opinion about psychologists is based primarily on knowing the laws of the land that give psychologists the power they have, and on their interpretation of psychological experiments and psychological phenomena.

    For example, take the standard interpretation of the Milgram Experiment, namely, that people will go to great lengths because they obey authority. To me, this is an interpretation entirely foreign to life. I'd need a paragraph or so to sketch out in brief why I think so. Or some "scientific" ideas on why people procrastinate and how to cure that ...
  • Isaac
    5.3k
    you have worked in a field for which as a whole, diagnosing people is an important activity, both theoretically and practically. You belong to that field. What applies to that field, directly or indirectly applies to you.baker

    How so? I have no more influence over the way diagnosing psychologists do their work than you do. It's like saying that engineers are at least partly responsible for the arms trade because some of their number design weapons. It's ridiculous. The whole tone of this thread has been "yeah, but psychology is basically about diagnosing people" despite me posting quite a clear set of links to exactly what places like Cambridge University and the Royal Society consider to be covered by Psychology. It's sadly typical of the responses here that they fall so lazily into "yeah, but...".

    you were the one bringing up the issue of wanting to reduce the stigma of psychiatric diagnosis, and asked for suggestions on how to do this.baker

    It was a rhetorical question, as in "how on earth am I supposed to do anything about that!", but more conciliatory. Should have stuck with the cantankerous version.

    my not so favorable opinion about psychologists is based primarily on knowing the laws of the land that give psychologists the power they havebaker

    We're responsible for the law now? The sheer number of things psychologists are responsible for is mounting rapidly, I can't keep track. I'd better keep a weather eye on the situation in Syria lest it transpire that's my fault too.

    take the standard interpretation of the Milgram Experiment, namely, that people will go to great lengths because they obey authority. To me, this is an interpretation entirely foreign to life.baker

    Okaaay... so because you've had a little think of your own about Milgram's experiments, and have decided he's wrong that means the...

    interpretation of psychological experiments and psychological phenomena.baker

    ...is mistaken globally? Should we be consulting you directly from now on?
  • Alkis Piskas
    398
    Since the dawn of philosophy with Socrates, ...Shawn

    The dawn of philosophy is much earlier than Socrates. A lot of great and well known philosophers, called "Pre-Socratic", existed before him, and their philosophy is classified as "pre-Socratic philosophy"

    - Thales of Miletus – l. c. 585 BC
    - Anaximander – l. c. 610 - c. 546 BC
    - Anaximenes – l. c. 546 BC
    - Pythagoras – l. c. 571 - c. 497 BC
    - Xenophanes of Colophon – l. c. 570 - c. 478 BC
    - Heraclitus of Ephesus – l. c. 500 BC
    - Parmenides – l. c. 485 BC
    - Zeno of Elea – l. c. 465 BC
    (https://www.worldhistory.org/Pre-Socratic_Philosophers/)
  • Alkis Piskas
    398

    Nowadays we know very well, that the study of the human psyche is done through psychology.Shawn
    It is quite ironic that the words Psychology and Psychiatry are based on the ancient Greek word "psyche", which means "soul". Yet, Psychology nor Psychiatry do not even believe in the existence of soul (spirit)! There's only a brain for them. All material. Nothing spiritual, religious or philosophical. So mind, soul and spirit are all still in the hands of other fields (philosophy and religion).
  • baker
    2.5k
    And you wonder why there is a negative image of psychologists ....

    Read again what I said.
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