• frank
    10

    If you ever come across a book called ”The History of Money" by Jack Weatherford, I'd be interested in your assessment.

    He says the invention of money altered human societies and even altered how we think. The invention of money lending amplified the effect because money, which is abstract to begin with, now became virtual. It means that we live, to some extent, off of virtual resources, or rather live beyond our means pervasively and perpetually. It produces booms and busts that wouldn't happen otherwise. It produces super wealthy and debt slaves.

    But the world before debt was a stagnant world. We never ventured very far from a baseline.

    So which do we want? A volatile story or a stagnant one?
  • K Turner
    1


    Yes, the US is clearly complicit in creating the conditions that led fascism to prosper in Europe, and I'm glad you've mentioned that other European powers were far from blameless as well. We're on the same page here.

    We have to remember that WWII really can't be separated from the Holocaust, so the factors that led to the Holocaust are also complicit in WWII: German religious/cultural traditions, the merger of science and race, historic anti-Semitism, and a host of other factors.

    Jewish economic success in Europe is also complicit - if the Jews didn't succeed they wouldn't have made such good targets/enemies for the Nazis.

    The key here is to distinguish between one being complicit and one being actually, directly responsible for something. If your boss fires you and you go home and kick your dog your boss may be complicit, but he's not responsible for your dog's injury.
  • StreetlightX
    58
    We have to remember that WWII really can't be separated from the Holocaust, so the factors that led to the Holocaust are also complicit in WWII: German religious/cultural traditions, the merger of science and race, historic anti-Semitism, and a host of other factors.K Turner

    Indeed, in this connection it's worth mentioning that the Nazi's explicitly looked to America as a model of how to implement state racism:

    When the Nazis set out to legally disenfranchise and discriminate against Jewish citizens, they weren’t just coming up with ideas out of thin air. They closely studied the laws of another country. According to James Q. Whitman, author of Hitler’s American Model, that country was the United States. “America in the early 20th century was the leading racist jurisdiction in the world,” says Whitman, who is a professor at Yale Law School. “Nazi lawyers, as a result, were interested in, looked very closely at, [and] were ultimately influenced by American race law.” In particular, Nazis admired the Jim Crow-era laws that discriminated against Black Americans and segregated them from white Americans, and they debated whether to introduce similar segregation in Germany.

    ...Yet they ultimately decided that it wouldn’t go far enough. ... Because of this, Nazis were more interested in how the U.S. had designated Native Americans, Filipinos and other groups as non-citizens even though they lived in the U.S. or its territories. These models influenced the citizenship portion of the Nuremberg Laws, which stripped Jewish Germans of their citizenship and classified them as “nationals.” ... But a component of the Jim Crow era that Nazis did think they could translate into Germany were anti-miscegenation laws, which prohibited interracial marriages in 30 of 48 states. ... The Nuremberg Laws, too, came up with a system of determining who belonged to what group, allowing the Nazis to criminalize marriage and sex between Jewish and Aryan people. Rather than adopting a “one-drop rule,” the Nazis decreed that a Jewish person was anyone who had three or more Jewish grandparents. Which means, as Whitman notes, “that American racial classification law was much harsher than anything the Nazis themselves were willing to introduce in Germany.”

    https://www.history.com/news/how-the-nazis-were-inspired-by-jim-crow

    The key here is to distinguish between one being complicit and one being actually, directly responsible for something. If your boss fires you and you go home and kick your dog your boss may be complicit, but he's not responsible for your dog's injury.K Turner

    I don't think this is a particularly apt metaphor. American indifference and financial callousness was the subject of a more than a decade of policy wrangling and vexed appeals from blocs of nations which fell on deaf ears. Certainly, the Nazis were ultimately responsible for the suffering they caused, but their rise to power was enabled at multiple, decade-spanning points by American blitheness. And again, the point is, anyone with the audacity to say something as stupid as 'but for the US....' ought to know exactly what this 'but for...' entails.

    On topic, this legacy of state racism is nowhere more apparently today than the racial terrorism of the Israeli state, propped by by this self-same maleficent American government.
  • StreetlightX
    58
    If you ever come across a book called ”The History of Money" by Jack Weatherford, I'd be interested in your assessment.frank

    Gosh I have a whole reading list on money backlogged under my bed. Maybe, maybe.
  • 180 Proof
    41
    Thanks. I just try to keep 'world affairs' in (a) historical perspective of the nation-state world system (vide Wallerstein, et al) created by European empires (re: Treaty of Westphalia (1648), Congress of Vienna (1815)) in order to, IIRC, regulate "The Great Game" (long before it was called that) on the continent as well as in Africa, Asia, Oceania & the Americas. The US has been no more "dispicable" (except at home) and "responsible for global misery", as a former European colony, than the other European empires themselves during the last few or more centuries. Complicity in world historical crimes and atrocities since 1492 distinguishes "Pax America" (realpolitik) mostly by the US coming out victoriously on top of "The Great Game" of European empires by 1919, then again, even more so, in 1945. The critical problem is the "dispicable" world system "responsible for global misery" and not merely, or even primarily, one of its most profligate (youngest) agents – your, or Hudson's, well-documented 'diagnosis', SLX, I suspect in the end, misses the imperialist forest for the nationalist trees. It's just too easy, comrade – very tempting, yeah – to solely blame, in a vacuum, the "triumphant" US-in-decline for the current state of this rapidly overheating, plague-ridden, global shithole. :shade:
  • frank
    10
    Gosh I have a whole reading list on money backlogged under my bed. Maybe, maybe.StreetlightX

    It's probably under your bed, then. Weatherford would just be a simple overview: how money appeared in Lydia (as far as we know, it was invented only once), and how that immediately started changing the world. He goes through the whole history of Rome from the perspective of what was going on with the money.
  • tim wood
    8
    Moral of the story: the US held Europe financially hostage because it is a shithole country, and WWII was the result of its gangsterism.StreetlightX

    So, how I really feel? Well since you asked - fuck everything about the US and anything it comes close to even remotely breathing beside.StreetlightX

    There's no arguing with this. And accordingly I award @StreetlightX The Ted Cruz a**hole - or sick man or both - of the year award, with special ribbon for infantile exhibition of his own poop as in, "Look everybody at my poop! Aren't I a good child? "

    Argument, or discussion, at best leads to edification, or can or should. Exhibition of poop is not discussion. Nor when the rant you start with is the rant you end with.
  • StreetlightX
    58
    What's that? Got nothing apart from your cut n' paste 30s Google search propaganda? Yeah, thought so. Run along.
  • frank
    10

    I think you're like that guy who wanted revenge on a whale. I'm sure at some level you realize it's just a whale.
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