• TheMadFool
    13.8k
    I hope my basic grasp of logic (first-order logic) is sufficient for the purpose of this discussion which concerns the temporal aspect of the logical conditional.

    First off, some definitions:

    Time: The only aspects of time that matter to this discussion is its tripartite division into past, present, and future.

    Logical conditional: "IF...THEN..." statements and example of which is "if x > 3 then, x > 0". A general formulation of the logical conditional is "IF P THEN Q" where P is taken as the sufficient condition (the antecedent) for Q and Q is the necessary condition (the consequent) for P. If a proposition P is sufficient for Q, it means that P & ~Q is impossible. Conversely, if Q is necessary for P then ~Q & P is impossible.

    Consider the following statements:

    1. If the plant grows then the plant was watered

    2.; If I decapitate you then you will die

    There's nothing wrong with either of the two statements - they make complete sense. However, in the case of statement 1, the consequent "the plant was watered" temporally precedes the antecedent "the plant grows" [the plant has to be watered before it can start growing] and in the case of 2, the consequent "you will die" comes after, in a temporal sense, the antecedent "I decapitate you" [death follows decapitation].

    That means, if time is removed from the equation, the following occurs:

    3. If the plant grows then the plant was watered = If plant growth then water

    4. If I decapitate you then you will die = If decapitate then death


    If we're then to analyze statements 3 and 4, as formulated outside of time, we wouldn't know if we should water the plant to make it grow or that plant growth produces water. We also wouldn't know whether statement 4 means that you can cause death by decapitation or that death occurs before decapitation. In short, the logical conditional is temporally unbounded i.e. without some words that indicate time like "will" "was" and verb-tenses, we wouldn't know if the antecedent precedes or succeeds, time-wise, the consequent.

    In essence, the logical conditional is chronologically ambiguous and cuts both ways - backward into the past and forward into the future - and which is meant needs to be made explicit using words like "was", "will", and verb-tenses.

    What significance does this particular, peculiar aspect of the logical condtional have?
  • tim wood
    9.3k
    This probably not the sharpest answer, but it strikes me that logic is always essentially a tool. As such it has its range of correct and proper uses and applications as well as improper. It seems to me the question as to temporality, while maybe interesting, has little to do with correct applications of logic. And as you note, any ambiguities are rightly resolved by using right modifiers.
  • TheMadFool
    13.8k
    :up: I will never get to the bottom of the problem. I don't even remember what the problem was. Just vague thoughts on possible routes to solving it. Can you, maybe, work backwards from the OP and make a guesstimate on what the question/problem was/is?

    By the way, where exactly are your views on the temporal aspects of logic. I hear there's such a thing as temporal logic, kind courtesy of Arthur Prior. Can you give me, even if it's only one (long) sentence, a short introduction to it?
  • tim wood
    9.3k
    One could search and find this:
    https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/prior/

    The subject appears to be about the truth of "tensed" or future propositions. The answer seems to be that the addition of appropriate language dissolves problems.

    From the site," Tense logic is now also employed for the manipulation of time-dependent data and has numerous applications in computing, including database management, program verification, and commonsense reasoning in artificial intelligence."

    I am not a programmer, but this suggests to me programming with a lot of timers, counters, and if-then-else logic.

    But we can consider the tritest and greyest of propositions, 2+2=4. There's actually quite a bit of logic folded up in this - none worth unfolding here. Can we give it a temporal aspect? Sure we can - this is TPF! We can ask when is 2+2=4 true? Ans., (in one sense at least) always. Why? Because it is always true! And this serves to distinguish it from propositions that can be either true or false. From the site, "Socrates is sitting down." And this is true when it is, false when it isn't. And also statements about future conditions, "Three inches of snow will fall on January 8, 2025." Which, from the site, are incomplete.

    And there are propositions about contingent alternatives, often rendered in compact form as questions. "Should we attack at dawn?" or, "Should we build a wall or should we build (up) the Navy?"

    Language itself solves none to these; language as a tool used correctly resolves them all. It seems to me that everyone goes through a time of being mystified by language - sometimes a very long time - in which, for want of a better description, language is taken as being something other than it is, usually reified and reifying somehow in the mind of the one wondering. One can think and wonder about a screwdriver until it's lost, the same with language. And all manner of things can be created in language, the mistake being to think or suppose those same things exist in any other sense.
  • TheMadFool
    13.8k
    :ok: :up:

    I'll give you an example of a conditional statement that's temporally ambiguous:

    1. If mom is home then the food is ready

    Does statement 1 imply that mom is home before the food is ready (mom cooks the food) or does it mean that mom is home after the food is ready (mom told you that she'd arrive only after the food is ready)?

    What are your thoughts?
  • tim wood
    9.3k
    When asking what something means, it's sometimes worthwhile to ask what it means to ask. Or anther way. If you're asking what it means, you're presupposing it has a meaning, or might have one, or more than one. The question can become, for people with a lot of time on their hands, how many meanings can be found. Anyone who pays attention to words and communication has learned that it's actually not-so-easy to write and convey just one meaning in the text. But this is just the long way around.

    As you know perfectly well, different readings and meaning can be got out of most texts. If wrung for mere possibilities, a lot of meanings. And this not a problem either with words or their usage. It can be a problem for and with communication, and that a whole other topic. And usage check: I think maybe words or texts do not actually themselves imply or mean. Any more than a wrench by itself ever tightens any bolt.

    Just for the heck of it, how many different meanings can you get out of your sentence? Or, is there even one word in the sentence that cannot have multiple meanings? Or the logic. What exactly is the relationship of the food's being ready to Mom's being home?
  • TheMadFool
    13.8k
    Is the sentence ambiguous or not? If there are beings who are beyond time or if they don't make the temporal distinctions we do like past, present, and future, their conditional statements would be tenseless and we, who've built our lives around such a system, would be unable to comprehend on first reading perhaps what the message is, assuming the message does contain "if...then..." statements.
  • Metaphysician Undercover
    13.2k
    In essence, the logical conditional is chronologically ambiguous and cuts both ways - backward into the past and forward into the future - and which is meant needs to be made explicit using words like "was", "will", and verb-tenses.TheMadFool

    That's right, which is the cause, and which is the effect must be stipulated to avoid ambiguity.
  • tim wood
    9.3k
    1. If mom is home then the food is readyTheMadFool
    Challenge for you. Make your sentence univocal so that I both may and must understand one and only one thing from it, no other possibilities. I think you will find that more than a little difficult. Even your understanding of if... then is ambiguous. You have it as temporal, others may have it as just logical. Near as I can tell, you're looking for something in language that simply is not there, viz., meaning. Take thee and me out of the picture and language is nothing. Confusion and ambiguity or any other failure attributed to language is no failure of language at all - the bullet never misses - but instead a failure of people.
    .
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