Distance does not disappear if no one measures it — but “distance in meters,” embedded in a metric geometry and operationalized by instruments and conventions, does not exist independently of those frameworks. Likewise with clock time. What exists is change, passage, becoming; what we measure is an abstracted parameter extracted from it. — Wayfarer

Ok, I'm glad we're on the same page there.

The philosophical claim is simply that it does not follow from the existence of something independent to be measured that reality itself can be specified in wholly observer-independent terms. — Wayfarer

I agree with this quantitatively. Its the qualitative aspect that I'm struggling with. We acknowledge that there is something independent we are measuring, but how does the removal of our measuring remove the independent thing we are measuring? It logically can't, because its independent.

Let me imagine

That further move is a metaphysical assumption, not something licensed by the practice of measurement itself. It overlooks the role of the observing mind. — Wayfarer

And this is the part I think you're missing. Its not a metaphysical assumption without basis. The independent existent we are measuring, does not overlook the role of the observing mind. It notes that it is independent of it. Its a metaphysical assumption based on our real, predictable, and objectively confirmed understanding of measuring time. Time as a measurement cannot logically exist if there is not something that would exist independently of our measurement. That's the part I'm trying to get you to look at.

The point is that this quietly undermines the assumption that what is real independently of any observer can serve as the criterion for what truly exists. — Wayfarer

The point is that what truly exists is independent of any observer. Whether I observe change or not, it happens. Whether I observe and measure length or not it exists. Lets take the opposite. Length does not exist without an observer. How does that even work? It would rewrite the entirely of measurement and physics. Its not an assumption that change exists independently of our observation, our observed outcomes could not work without this being true. It is a truth that has to be for the framework of an observer to even work.

You can absolutely logically claim that if observers weren't there, the measurements that they invented in themselves would not exist. But you haven't proven that what is concluded inside of the framework itself, that there is change which independently exists of our measurement, isn't necessary for the framework to work. That is why it is not an assumption that if you remove the measurement, that the independent thing being measured suddenly disappears. My point is that you get into a reductio ad absurdum, because then it means the independent thing we are measuring is not independent of us, but relies on our observation.

I think there’s a deeper issue lurking here. Absent any perspective whatever, what could it even mean to say that something “exists”? — Wayfarer

True, and I like this issue. Maybe you're just jumping to it a little too quickly or using an example that doesn't quite lead there. You don't need time to think about that. It applies to any observed concept. I think logically without language or thoughts, there can be nothing to say about existence.

Everything that we use is a model or representative of something independent of ourselves. And that independence is incomprehensible minus the fact that something contradicts us outside of our will, thoughts, and beliefs that proves something is out there that isn't us. But what we can't remove is the notion that there is something independent from us as an observer. If we remove that independence as an observer, our observations no longer work. And that is why it is not a presupposition that there is something independent of our observations. Its a necessary truth for us to be observers.

I feel I'm just repeating myself at this point. I largely agree with most of your premises.

Space and time are intrinsic to that discriminative capacity. Without spatial differentiation and temporal ordering, there could be no stable objects, no persistence, no comparison, no calculation — and therefore no measurement at all. Conscious awareness and intelligibility presuppose these structuring forms. — Wayfarer

Its just the difference of one small word. "Without spatial differentiation and temporal ordering, there could be no observation of stable objects...etc. ... Conscious awareness and intelligibility require these structuring forms.

Explain it then.
— Philosophim
26 pages of your obsession with the contents of other people's underwear and the supposition that those contents dictate which toilette they must use, shows that there is not much point. — Banno

You know, after observing you for a while Banno, you're just a bit of a troll aren't you? You pretend to uphold forum standards and good philosophical standards, then flail hard when called out on it yourself.

Behave and stop distracting the thread with antics. Keep the discussion on topic and engaging with ideas instead of petty insults. If you want people to view you as someone respectable and wise, act like it.

I'll chime in another time here as I've been following the topic still and seeing if I missed something. If you wish to discuss it, that's fine. If not, I'll bow out.

The philosophical point, however, is that the act of measurement itself cannot be regarded as truly independent of the observer who performs and interprets the measurement. — Wayfarer

I don't think this has ever been controversial. This is what we've always known.

The point is that this quietly undermines the assumption that what is real independently of any observer can serve as the criterion for what truly exists. That move smuggles in a standpoint that no observer can actually occupy. It’s a subtle point — but also a modest one. It doesn't over-reach. — Wayfarer

It is an over-reach. You have to understand that the act of measurement assumes something is there independent of the measurer. There has never been the assumption that we create what we measure, only the creation of the quantitative standard of the measurement itself. So we can create seconds, minutes, or whatz its, but they all have to measure change between two states. The act of measurement itself cannot exist without there being something independent to measure. You have to tackle that first. Use length. If we don't measure length, does the distance between objects disappear? If you can't say yes, then you can't say yes to measuring time and state changes.

I think this thought process assumes a virtue that has not been earned.
— Philosophim
You entirely misunderstood the argument. No surprise there. — Banno

Explain it then. How does a person knowing or not knowing a trans individual personally indicate in any rational way that this is why they are treating the discussion abstractly? Wouldn't it make more sense that people are treating the subject abstractly because its a philosophy board?

The implication is that treating the subject abstractly is somehow wrong, when in philosophy abstract thinking is the grounds of critical thinking and can aid in conceptual understanding where personal feelings can interfere. It seems to me that whether you know a trans individual or not, that the abstract analysis of this language topic would be the better intellectual approach to the topic.

Edit: But there is a serious point here. If the folk here objecting to trans folk do not know any, then that explains why they are treating real humans in abstract terms. — Banno

I think this thought process assumes a virtue that has not been earned. Personally knowing a person or group of people does not mean you have any more ore less virtue towards them. We talk about people in abstract terms all the time. Its a philosophy board. The implication that you personally knowing a trans person makes you more moral is as true as stating that the murderer of their own child killed that child out of love.

This particular thread has stuck to language and definitions without unearned appeals to morality. It should stay that way.

But I respectfully suggest that you haven't. You will invariably view it through the frame of scientific realism, and the only kind of arguments you would consider, would be scientific arguments. Let's leave it at that, and thanks for your comments. — Wayfarer

All good, appreciate the discussion Wayfarer!

Change — understood as physical variation or state transition — can perfectly well occur without observers.

If you think that is being denied, then you’re not engaging the point of the argument. — Wayfarer

I did note that you claimed you weren't denying science, and it seemed to me that you weren't denying change. My point as been that this means you also cannot deny succession and duration, at least with how I've understood your argument so far. Change implies an origin state then a successive state. Duration is the note that one thing remains in a particular state while other things around it change. We can measure this quantitatively with time, but the qualitative concepts still exist without our measurement or observation.

What I am questioning is whether physical change, by itself, amounts to time in the absence of an observer. — Wayfarer

If you are talking about the underlying qualitative concepts of what we are measuring with 'time', then yes. Succession and duration as unmeasured concepts would continue. I'll ask again, what would the world look like without succession and duration prior to consciousness existing?

The period prior to the evolution of h.sapiens can indeed be estimated and stated, but that estimation is performed by an observer using conceptual units of time that are meaningful to human cognition. — Wayfarer

They are more than meaningful to cognition, they produce accurate predicted results about the past and present. Again, time isn't just an invented concept, its applied with success. Just like length still exists if we don't use an inch to measure it.

The quantitative count of time could not exist without consciousness, true, and it shouldn't just apply to people. Bugs and animals have consciousness to an extent as well. They observe the world without a measure of their existence. I'm going even beyond this and removing consciousness entirely. Rocks in space still had change relative to themselves and other rocks in space. Its just unmeasured and unobserved.

It’s therefore important to see that this is not an empirical argument about what we observe, and hence not a question of empirical evidence as such. — Wayfarer

But it does require us to consider the empirical if we are going to include science. When you say, "Time does not exist without observers," you are making a claim about existence. So at the least, it can't contradict what we know about existence now without a good argument. My point is that our measurement of time, and the underlying concepts of succession and duration are proven in the very measurement tools we use. 1 second is both a sustained amount of measured change, and succession is the start of the second vs the end. There is no reason that if we simply stopped measuring or 'observing' time, that the qualitative concepts would suddenly stopped. You keep avoiding this portion, so I'll ask again. If succession and duration do not exist, how does change work intelligibly? This is conceptual, and not empirical.

A useful parallel is the long-standing problem of interpretations of quantum mechanics: all interpretations start from the same empirical evidence, yet they diverge radically in what that evidence is taken to mean. The disagreement is not evidential, but conceptual. — Wayfarer

The differences in concepts only has value in its clarity of understanding the evidence as is, and helpful in discovering new evidence going forward. There is a concept of quantum mechanics that our literal eyeballs looking at something change the outcome of what we're observing. This is factually incorrect. A misconception holds no value. My point is that your viewpoint seems to hold the misconception that the absence of an observer means the absence of the qualitative aspect of time. At most, it just means the absence of someone measuring it.

The relation we create is the thing we invent measurement for, given some difference we observe. — Mww

The relation we observe, not create. The creation of a relation is something independent of observation. I can create a related measurement of zorbools, which relates the existence of magical fluctations to farts in the wind. Does it mean I can observe zorbools? No. Magic cannot be observed, so neither can zorbools.

What 'thing' is being discussed? TIme is not 'a thing'. — Wayfarer

Time is the fact of change. When you say time doesn't exist prior to consciousness, you state change didn't happen prior to consciousness. Thus, I understand why you say time starts with consciousness, as change would start with consciousness. The primacy of consciousness. But there is no evidence that change doesn't happen prior to consciousness by your points presented. Only that we are observing and measuring change. Change happens whether we observe it or label it 'time'.

My claim is that time as succession or duration does not exist independently of the awareness of it. — Wayfarer

I understand this. The problem is you have no evidence of this. You haven't presented what it would be like if time did not have succession or duration. I'm not trying to put ideas into your head as I wanted to see what you came up with first. Since you haven't, the only state I could see reality being in prior to consciousness is a state of nothingness. The logical step would be that there was a state of existence in which no change happened, then suddenly consciousness came along and changed it. Basically the God theory of universal creation. Only in this case, the "God" is consciousness as a general point.

The problem of course is that this doesn't answer Ludwig's point, it presents an alternative view point without evidence.

Presuming anything is the act of a conscious being, so it is certain that presumption of the physical world presupposes a conscious being. But we know that the physical world existed long before any conscious beings existed (at least on this planet) and, since we know of no conscious beings that exist without a physical substrate, we can be sure that the physical world can exist without any conscious beings in it. — Ludwig V

You haven't presented evidence that the world did not exist prior to consciousness. The only thing you've observed is that humans have measured change with units we call time, and you think that if there isn't a consciousness measuring change that change cannot happen. That's a big claim with nothing backed behind it.

My claim is that time as succession or duration does not exist independently of the awareness of it. What can exist without observers are physical processes and relations between states. — Wayfarer

Ok, but what would that look like coherently without the idea that change happens as succession and over duration? What does a universe without duration mean or look like? What does an idea of change without succession look like? We use succession and duration in measuring time, because these are proven concepts. I'm willing to entertain a world that does not have succession or duration, but it needs to be coherent. What does that look like to you? Again, if you accept change existing prior to humanity observing it, then 'time' exists. If you're simply stating the 'measurement of time' doesn't exist, no argument there. But the lack of an observer measuring change does not mean change does not occur apart from observation.

It’s also worth noting that contemporary physics itself no longer treats space and time as fully observer-independent in the classical sense. — Wayfarer

Yes because that is how time is measured. You need an origin, because time is the measure of relative change between two states. Again, just because someone isn't there to measure relative change between two states, doesn't mean that it does not happen.

My point is not to deny physical reality, but to note that the naive realist picture of time as an observer-free container is no longer supported — even by physics. — Wayfarer

And again, all you've demonstrated is that "The naive realist picture of measuring time as an observer-free container is no longer supported." You have that 100%. Its the leap of you removing an observer's measurement to removing change prior to the observer that is missing a logical step.

↪BenMcLean
You're Bob Ross right? — frank

Hey, this is a new person on the forum. Inappropriate to go around publcally accusing people. Report a post if you suspect an issue, please don't make a hostile environment for new people. Reading their OP, they've posted absolutely nothing ban worthy.

Welcome Ben, this is a pretty good post. I often don't hear measured viewpoints from the right. Please ignore the trolls and continue discussion with those who want to engage with the OP. As I've mentioned before, I stay away from politics in philosophy, but I'm sure you'll find a few good people to engage with. I also agree with Banno that this is more political discussion than political philosophy.

My advice is to read a few more posts first and see what philosophy is. Your post is more of a fact/perspective viewpoint about the political right. But does it examine what it means to be conservative? Is the current Republican party conservative? More questions that either you build answers to with logic and facts, or questions that you use logic and facts to explore and leave open ended for others to provide their input.

Of course, no contest. But the point is, the observer is watching, measuring, deciding on the units of measurement. The relationship between moments in time and points in space is made in awareness. — Wayfarer

The measurement of relationships between moments in time and points in space is made in awareness.
That doesn't mean awareness creates the observed thing that we are measuring.

And the argument is that time has an inextricably subjective ground, that were there no subject, there would indeed be no time. — Wayfarer

Again, the argument that works is that the measurement of time (the rest of your quote). Again, just because I don't measure an inch, doesn't mean that space doesn't exist. Same with time.

Now obviously that's a big claim, but I've provided the bones of an argument for it in the OP. It can also be supported with inferential evidence from science itself. — Wayfarer

I was not satisfied that you interpreted science correctly. And as such I don't think you've made a good argument that time is merely a pre-supposition. I think you need to resolve the fact that measuring something doesn't mean we've created the thing that we've invented a measurement for.

I could never understand the obsession with the need to have a rigid definition of "man" and "woman." As if the fate of humanity rested upon it. Can't we just accept that we all humans, riddled with variation? — Questioner

We can both accept that we're humans riddled with variation, and accept what the normal use of man and woman mean in general language and culture. And do you know who cares very much about there being a distinct separation between men and women? Trans men and women. They see something fundamentally different from their own sex that they have an obsessive need to obtain for themselves. If there wasn't a difference, they woudn't care and transition would not be a thing.

Its important to understand that wanting clear defiinitions is not an intention to hurt other people. The OP is primarily concerned with the language itself, and seeks to demonstrate that the phrasing is poor. All I'm saying is if honest trans gender people are trying to communicate accurately, they are best to avoid the phrase and instead modify it to be clearer. "Trans men are adult human females that act in gendered ways associated with men." What's wrong with clear language?

Paradigm shifts are difficult. We have to let go of old beliefs that no longer fit the new reality, and our instinct is to be resistant to that. But you risk nothing when you try to understand where someone else is coming from. — Questioner

You know I know very much about trans individuals. So that's not an argument against what's being posted here. I'm also not treating trans people like pedant's either. I help people speak more clearly and say what they mean in my daily life. Clear communication is important. And many people get confused on this subject. If we want trans and non-trans people to get along better, honesty and openness are the way.

OK, I can see how my argument won't seem constructive to you because it doesn't accept enough of your basic premises to help you refine it. But I think what you're really doing here is smuggling in the deeply, inherently political and pretending you can treat it as non-political, in order to establish norms which make trans political victory inevitable. — BenMcLean

No, I'm really just providing a discussion ground for people to think about this idea. If you've noticed, I've largely stepped away and let people discuss amongst themselves. Its important we talk about things like this in a different way from politics. Again, I encourage you to make a topic of your own on the subject if you would like. Just make sure that its well thought out, cites good evidence, and isn't merely an attack on a group of people.

Right - agree. But here we're discussing a philosophical distinction. This understanding of 'the mind's role in the pursuit of scientific understanding' is not itself a scientific matter, right? — Wayfarer

It is. It is also a philosophical one, but that philosophical role should consider the science known. The quote was to indicate that scientists are not purporting to describe things in themselves as you claimed. I meant nothing more than that.

I don't see that as a pre-supposition, but an observed reality.
— Philosophim

It's a measured reality - and that is a world of difference. 'One second' is a unit of time. As are hours, minutes, days, months and years. But (to put it crudely) does time pass for the clock itself? I say not. Each 'tick' of a clock, each movement of the second hand, is a discrete event. It is the mind that synthesises these discrete events into periods and units of time. — Wayfarer

Yet its a discrete event that has a start and an end. Lets broaden it out to one minute. You start at X second and end at Y second to get a minute. It is a discrete measurement that is broken down into smaller discrete measurements in order. When we measure a minute, we have to watch for 60 seconds. Time passing is baked into the discrete measurement itself. Its not a dot on an x, y grid. Its the passage of coordinates like velocity where the difference between 1 and 2 is one second.

Physics relates states to one another using a time parameter. What it does not supply by itself is the continuity that makes those states intelligible as a passage from earlier to later. A clock records discrete states; it does not experience their succession as a continuous series amounting duration. — Wayfarer

I'm not quite seeing this. As I noted, velocity measures continuity of speed and direction which necessitates time passing in succession. Even a clock has a setup that implies before and after. With 12 starting as the origin, 1 comes after 12, 11 comes before 12. This is a measured succession comprised of 60 minutes each.

The fact that we can say “one second has passed” already presupposes a standpoint from which distinct states are apprehended as belonging to a single, continuous temporal order. — Wayfarer

I don't see that as a pre-supposition, but an observed reality. Why is it a pre-supposition? For example, lets pre-suppose time is not a continuous temporal order. This would mean the future could happen before the past. But we've never observed this. I've never eaten my sandwich before I've made it. So the observed reality as we have known so far indicates there is a past, a future, and that the past always happens prior to the future.

So the claim is not that change requires an observer, but that time as succession—as a unified before-and-after—does. — Wayfarer

I mean, that's a fair claim to explore. Do you have evidence that its not? We have plenty of evidence to indicate that it is.

What I am suggesting is that, in your examples, the role of the observer in supplying continuity and relational unity between discrete events goes unnoticed. — Wayfarer

Wouldn't the observer be observing continuity and relational unity? I mean, if I observe an inch, I'm observing a length of distance. If I observe a second, I've observed a relational change of time from a beginning to an end. You seem to be relying on the observer for observing time, then switch it up and say the observer isn't observing time, they're just making it up. While I agree the relation of a second is made up, it is a consistent agreed upon measurement of observed reality, is it not? And that observed reality of time, the second, has a start and an end right?

Once this abstraction has been made, the subject — as the individual scientist — can indeed be set aside, creating the impression that objects and interactions are being described as they are in themselves. — Wayfarer

The scientific method is attempting to represent reality in a measurable and objectively repeatable way. Science in its fine print never claims it understands truth. It claims it has been unable to falsify a falsifiable hypothesis up until now.

What I do agree with is that we can make a form of measurement like the second, then retroactively apply it. So if a person discovered 'the second', they could then ask, "I wonder how many seconds it took me to finalize what a second was from the time I started work this morning?" There's a definitive answer in terms of representation. But not having this representation does not change the qualification that time passed since they started work that morning.

Now I may still be misunderstanding the point. So to sum, my big questions are, "Why is it a presupposition that time is linear, when the measurement of time requires linearity?" One second has a start and an end. The other is, if you presuppose that time does not require linearity, how does this result in anything coherent? Can you give me an example of what this would be?

You go over some ground here, so I want to summarize your points to ensure I understand what your OP is trying to say.

1. Ludwig has stated that reality can exist without any conscious beings in it, because consciousness relies on there being a physical world to exist. We know of physical reality that does not have consciousness, but we have not yet found consciousness that exists independent of physical reality.

2. You have no objection to modern day science and learning, so these are all free to consider as known and applicable.

3. You believe that the claim that there existed temporal progression before consciousness needs to be carefully examined and not taken for granted.

4. You believe time in physics does not have an order of progression and only measures a relation between states.

5. Because time is only an observable measurement to an observer, the lack of an observer means time is not observed.

6. You use Kant, Bergson, and Schopenhauer to support your arguments.

Conclusion: Because time is only observed by an observer, time did not exist prior to observers. Therefore, physical reality could not exist prior to observers existing.

A few counter points to consider.

1. Physics does follow temporal progression. Velocity is a measurement of direction and location over time. This seems obvious, so it may be that I'm missing some other implication you were trying to point out there. Now there may be some confusion in saying "Time" is an actual 'thing' vs the observation of change between different objects. I agree that 'time' is not a 'substance' like a cake mix you can run through your hands. It is simply an observation that change occurs.

2.

Time, he argues, is a pure form of intuition² - the a priori (already existing) condition required for appearances to be given as successive or as simultaneous. If we abstract from the subjective conditions of intuition, Kant writes, then time in itself "is nothing." This does not mean that time is unreal, but that its reality is inseparable from the standpoint of possible experience, and cannot be projected back onto things as they might exist independently of appearance. — Wayfarer

Your last sentence does not logically follow. If I measure 1 second forward, then one second later I have recorded and measured one second backwards. Again, follow the velocity of an object over time on a graph. If I set up a crash stunt, I have to measure the forces and time. Once the stunt is complete, I can see if the number of seconds that passed, did. To arrive at the point after the stunt is complete, time would have had to pass in the measure that noted, or else the current measure of time would be off. 1 minute past is what happened to be at the current time correct? Time is simply measured the change of one thing in relation to another thing. But to say time doesn't exist prior to consciousness is to claim there was no change prior to consciousness. An observer can observe and measure change, but an observer is not required for change to happen.

The appeal to a "pre-history" of the universe, taken as decisive against the primacy of consciousness, presupposes precisely what is at issue: a notion of temporal succession that is already meaningful independently of any standpoint. — Wayfarer

Well no, it is meaningful in terms of the measurement we created and observed. But it doesn't mean we've created what we observed. That's like saying length didn't exist before we observed it. Of course there had to be distance between two objects. Observation only adds the measurement of something in relation to our observation of it, so that's true. So the concept of an 'inch' would not exist without consciousness. But the 'length' that we are labeling as an inch would still exist despite that lack of label.

Time is the same. A second is a way we measure time, but that time would exist whether we measured it or not. At the most you can say, "Before there were observers of time, there was no observation and measurement of time." I agree with that completely. But this in no way indicates that prior to an observer of time, that time, or the relative change between objects, did not exist prior to its observation.

Bergson reserves the term durée (duration) for lived temporality: the continuous, qualitative flow in which moments interpenetrate rather than succeed one another like points on a ruler. Duration is not composed of separable instants, nor can it be exhaustively captured by clocks or equations. It is the form taken by inner life itself - memory, anticipation, and the felt passage from past to present.

This distinction matters because it sharpens the point already made in connection with Kant. The time parameter of physics can order states and define relations, but it does not, by itself, yield temporal passage or succession as such. Bergson's claim is not that physics is mistaken, but that it necessarily abstracts particular values from what makes time what it is for a conscious being. In doing so, it substitutes a mathematical schema for the reality of temporal existence. — Wayfarer

Well no, a measurement is not the same as the act itself. Its an observation, and if done accurately and completely, results in an expected outcome in the future, as well as an expected set up in the past. Wayfarer, you aren't experiencing the 'now' of typing your OP, but you did right? You aren't immediately conscious of your typing the OP in the past, but you surely did. What if you bumped your head and didn't remember typing it? Even if you couldn't measure it in your memory, it still happened in the past as we're reading it now. Even if you died tomorrow and no one read your OP ever again, it would still exist.

The 'now' is still the act of change. You can't even observe the 'now' without change happening, as 'observing itself' is change. Can we quantify it as a 100% understanding of what is actually happening? No. We can quantify it within an accurate enough measure to both predict and result in real observable outcomes. But our inability to completely represent the qualification of time into a perfect quantity does not invalidate the qualification that time exists prior to the now. Whether we sleep through our observation of time or not, change still happens.

To recap: on the one hand, scientific explanation requires us to say that conscious beings emerge only after a long causal sequence unfolding in time. On the other hand, time itself - understood as succession or temporal sequence - exists only as a form of representation, and therefore presupposes a knowing subject. — Wayfarer

To clarify, time as an observable measurement only exists as a form of representation and can only be understood by a conscious subject. That doesn't mean that what is being represented does not exist independent of our ability to measure it.

In the final analysis, reality is not something from which we stand apart. As Max Planck remarked:

Science cannot solve the ultimate mystery of nature. And that is because, in the last analysis, we ourselves are part of the mystery that we are trying to solve. — Wayfarer

Unless we also use science to figure our ourselves. I'm not sure how this counters Ludwig's point either.

The appeal to a "pre-history" of the universe, taken as decisive against the primacy of consciousness, presupposes precisely what is at issue: a notion of temporal succession that is already meaningful independently of any standpoint. — Wayfarer

There is no pre-supposition though. We have concluded that time passes, and we express this quantitatively through measurement. If you pre-suppose there is no temporal succession, you can get invalidated by your very reading and addressing of the just recently made pre-supposition itself. Qualitatively, time still exists independent of our direct observation. The point that time existed prior to humanity is not a quantitative specific claim, but a qualitative one. Nothing in your points indicated that consciousness existed apart from physical reality, nor did you indicate that physical reality cannot exist independent of consciousness. So as I've understood it, what has been claimed is that observers are the only things that can observe time, and if observers don't exist, time is not observed. I don't disagree with this, but I don't think it invalidates Ludwig's claim.

Transwomen are people, deserving of our love and kindness and respect, and equal rights as fellow citizens. That all really has nothing to do with this philosophic question. Women people deserving all of these as well. And men. A few people (and a political ideology) don’t get to hijack the function of language and repurpose the word “women” just because they think that is the only way equal rights and respect can be distributed to the people who distinguish themselves as “trans”. — Fire Ologist

Good post Fire.

This needs to be understood clearly from all involved in this discussion. If at any moment anyone thinks raising this issue is about being bigoted, hateful, or 'against trans people', please correct that notion or at least provide a clear reason why you think any of those apply. We want to avoid the problems we have seen prior in discussions. "You don't believe in God? You must be evil and hate people." "You don't believe in our president? Well you must be a commie and hate America." "You're against using language to state a trans woman is a woman? You must hate trans people." Its the same pattern, and we as people who participate in philosophy have the responsibility to not fall into these same patterns.

If language didn’t contain the static, ever, the notion of “shared understandings” is silly. How can two people share the same understanding if not even words can be fixed?
— Fire Ologist

This is a bizarre take. We know language isn't fixed. Surely you know the language you're speaking now didn't exist 2000 years ago. And after it did come into existence, it was spoken very differently from how it's spoken now. — flannel jesus

I think the issue is that language cannot be a purely rule less enterprise. Its like saying, "Since every human is slightly different, a pig can be a human." Of course it can't. The entirety of philosophy is based on defining language and rules to create logical outcomes. If you use language to 'prove' language has no rules, you've just created a rule about language and contradicted yourself. Its not that rules can't change over time, but that doesn't mean the rules and outcomes of today are suddenly invalid or trivialized.

Lots of words involve "prejudice" (as you define it). "Kindness" suggests a prejudice for certain varieties of action. "Morals" suggest a prejudice in favor of ethical rules. ""Prejudice" is a form of "judgement" -- sometimes an inaccurate one based on incomplete data, sometimes an accurate one based on incomplete data. — Ecurb

If you read the OP, prejudice is literally a 'pre-judgement'. Determining kindness and morals are not pre-judgements, they are judgements.

Gender-based norms have been prevalent in every human society. However, they differ from culture to culture. This suggests they are not based on sex, but on "gender", which is culturally constituted. — Ecurb

Prejudice and sexism have been prevalent in every human society. However, they differ from culture to culture. This suggests that prejudice and sexism are very easy to fall into if we aren't diligent about it.

Using titles is also prejudiced. We think (with insufficient evidence) that someone calling herself "doctor" is well-educated about treating disease. Should we refrain from using "doctor". — Ecurb

That again is not a pre-judgement. Its an earned title based on education and life accomplishments to indicate a person who has gone above and beyond to master skills beyond most people's capabilities and efforts.

Debating with you is like shooting an unarmed man. Victory is easy, but there's not much glory in it. — Ecurb

You can only talk like that if you leave the debate on strong footing Ecurb. I hope you learned another viewpoint. That the trans gender language and approach is not kind, it is demanding of another person's consent. And no one is obligated to speak to another in a prejudiced manner.

I think you may be describing some aspects from the transwomen side, but not all. And I still think only addressing trans women ignores the commonality between them and trans men.

More importantly for my purposes, I think there is a clear division between trans gender individuals and trans sexuals. I do believe that trans gender is inherently prejudicial, and ultimately sexist if it rises above the fact of the person. However trans sexual individuals simply desire the body of the other sex. While they can also be trans gender, I want to isolate specifically the trans sexuals who still understand they aren't going to magically change into the other sex, but have a deep psychological desire to do so anyway.

The trans gender issue takes up so much bandwidth, its rare I can think or discuss about this particular issue with another. Do you think there is something potentially different about trans sexual individuals? Even in societies where women are oppressed, there are trans sexuals. Its a very rare occurrence, but they exist across all cultures. Should the desire be entertained if the technology is available? Is the separation of trans sexuals and trans genders something viable to consider?

"And, doggone it, I'm not about to change with the times." Any of us who have seen emails where people list their pronouns and identification forms where people list their pronouns must be aware that the pronouns are meant to relate to gender, not sex. — Ecurb

And as I've noted in this thread, I consider gender prejudice. So no, I'm not going to start using prejudicial language. You have not indicated why the OP is wrong on this. This is not a 'times' issue. This is a linguistic and ethical issue.

Therefore, it is not a "lie" to use someone's preferred pronouns. Of course you are free to do so, but your excuse that complying would be a "lie" is mere silliness. Therefore, there is no moral excuse for your rudeness -- your excuse is simply that you don't want to change the way you speak as the language changes. That's not a matter of morality -- it's a matter of stubbornness. — Ecurb

Is it more moral to use language without prejudice and sexism, or more moral not to? Its more moral not to. Since I use pronouns to refer to sex, its not a matter of stubbornness but ethics and integrity. Since I use pronouns to refer to sex, by fact, it would be a lie to call them a sex they are not.

Yes. Every single criminal act, every single violation of another human being involves violating their consent. Its not something to be taken lightly
— Philosophim

First of all, that's not true (or only trivially true) — Ecurb

How is it not true? You don't just get to hand wave that away. Again, your dismissal of consent is highly questionable.

many legal acts violate people's consent. The murderer who is hauled off to prison doesn't consent to being incarcerated. — Ecurb

In society and government, to live within that government you consent to following its laws. If you don't like it, leave or change the laws. A government like a democracy allows more voices involved in what laws society crafts. So no, it is not a violation of consent if you choose to live within a civilization.

"Its ok to steal five dollars because he has a lot of money and won't miss it.
— Philosophim

Well, Robin Hood is a revered hero. — Ecurb

You're excusing petty theft by referring to a fictional character? Present an actual moral argument please.

Sometimes it is morally justified, sometimes it isn't. — Ecurb

Thank you, this is more honest. Of course I am not comparing petty crime to revolution, which is the overthrow of a government that has gone beyond the normal rights and uses laws to violate its citizens instead of protecting them and keeping order. What I'm not seeing is any justification for violating a person's interpersonal consent, which is what the topic is about.

As I've clearly pointed out, using preferred pronouns does not constitute a "lie". — Ecurb

You have not pointed out that if I'm using pronouns to reference sex, that it would not be a lie. You have tried to insist that everyone should use pronouns to refer to gender. But you have not given a moral reason why. I have indicated gender is simply prejudice, and I think its immoral to support it in any official capacity. Meaning I have a moral right to not use pronouns to refer to gender. So far, I have the moral right to call you unethical for pushing prejudicial language. You should work on that next.

You have a "moral right" to misuse the language, to behave rudely, and to ignore the preferences of others. — Ecurb

You are misusing language by attempting to turn a sex descriptor into a tool of prejudice. To me, that is rude. You ignore my preference to use pronouns as mere descriptors of a person's sex, and without providing any serious moral reason why I should not.

And I have the moral (and correct, and logical) right to say such behavior is rude. — Ecurb

I have seen only assertions, no logical argument why you can say your behavior isn't prejudicial. History is full of people who assert moral certainty without rationality as a means of control. That's you. You are logically in the wrong so far here. That may change if you present a better argument, but as of now, you have nothing but statements and beliefs, not accurate facts or logic.

Would you object if people misgendered you? If you would, why would you want to misgender
others (now that it's clear that this involves no "lying")? — Ecurb

No, I don't object to misgendering because I don't believe in using 'correct' gendering either. Gender is a prejudicial way to talk to one another. You see, in some actions I could easily be observed as having the gender of the opposite sex. In their eyes, because gender is simply a subjective prejudice, they would see me as the gender of the opposite sex, and would not be misgendering. And yet if I decided to think gender was important, I can very likely have a different idea of how my sex should act, and thus it would be a difference of opinion and not fact.

I see my behaviors as irrelevant to my sex. Subjective communication asserted as objective reality does not lead to clear communication. That is why I use sex references and not gender to other people. Act and live as you want. It doesn't change the sex that you are. And in no way does anyone have a moral right to assert someone is rude if they aren't using prejudicial language.

You're really losing this one Ecurb. Try less mocking attacks. Try addressing my points more clearly. And give a serious look at consent. You're coming across as a kid, not a serious debater. That can change, but you need to shape up a bit.

Thus the transgender discourse in inherently misogynous. — Throng

It is also can be equally masandrist when trans men are involved. This is all too often forgotten in the conversation, but rans men exist too. There are trans men who think because they've transitioned, they're now gay and can hit on gay men. Which is incredibly homophobic. I don't think transitioning is innately misogynist or mysandrist, but much of the rhetoric around it is.

The tenor of your discussion may be heading more towards the idea of gender as having any credible import in laws. I have another one here that may be more along the lines of what you're thinking about. https://thephilosophyforum.com/discussion/16313/gender-elevated-over-sex-is-sexism/p1

Oh, bunk. "What planet do you live on" was shorthand for saying language evolves and most educated people are now aware that pronouns refer to gender, these days. — Ecurb

Ok, I'll give you the benefit of the doubt. I've come across the wrong way before as writing lacks non-verbal. To your point, its unknown how many educated people use pronouns to refer to sex. I'm educated for example, and I've always used pronouns to reference sex, not gender.

So you are agreeing with me that its a lie, and that people are being asked to lie for someone else's feelings.
— Philosophim

No. As should be obvious from my posts. — Ecurb

With regard to lies: I'm a fan of Mark Twain, who said, "Show me a man who don't lie and I'll show you a man who ain't got much to say." Generous, good-natured lies harm no one, facilitate happiness and lubricate social interaction. Lies in and of themselves are not wicked; they are wicked only if harmful or malicious. — Ecurb

Then why did you mention the above if there are no lies involved?

If your 'good natured lies' make my consent trivial, then you share the same mentality as a thief.
— Philosophim

Oh, no! Horrors! — Ecurb

Yes. Every single criminal act, every single violation of another human being involves violating their consent. Its not something to be taken lightly. Notice how I'm not mocking a trans person's request for pronouns. I'm listening, I'm considering it, and stating its up to every individual to concede whether they wish to do something against their nature for the other person. I just ask the same consideration and respect back.

Your consent is irrelevant because it would be a trivial favor on your part to use the gender pronouns people desire. — Ecurb

"Its ok to steal five dollars because he has a lot of money and won't miss it." "Its ok if I copped a feel quickly, she'll get over it." These are the excuses of people who do wrong to others. They discount other's personal boundaries, their viewpoints for personal benefit at another's expense. That's what being a terrible person is.

I do not mind if a trans person asks me to partake in the implication that transition has made them the other sex. I clearly do not see any moral justification for me to partake in this besides its what they want. And my decision not to should be just as respected as their decision to be on hormones and dress in a manner associated with the opposite sex.

You yourself have discounted and not listened to my clear points in the last posts as to why its important to me that I refuse to go along with their view of themselves. If I went and told a trans gender person, "I don't care if you feel like a woman, just suck it up for social cohesion," you would have an issue wouldn't you? Then why do you not have an issue telling me to suck it up for social cohesion? Morality seeks equal rational treatment between parties. You have not proposed that.

Do you see your moral certitude lacks consistency? Instead of an ask for a group, this seems more like a power play. That's not anything good or moral. My viewpoint is morally consistent. I simply ask that my consent or lack thereof to not lie to someone else be respected and understood as my moral right. From my view point still, I hold the moral view point while you seem to want to violate consent for the emotions of a particular group of people.

Trans people (about whom I know very little) are probably obsessive about their gender (why else would they bother becoming trans).. So I assume it's more important to them than it would be to you (if you have normal sensibilities). — Ecurb

What an inane assumption. I just told you why its important to me. And consent is not about whether someone thinks its more important. If a man raped a woman because he thought his desire was more important than her desire not to sleep with him, that makes it right? And you don't even know any trans people. I do. And I know a few who agree with everything I've posted here. Trans gender people are not a monolithic hive mind.

So instead, of making naive moral assumptions and assertions, take a step back and go step by step. Why is consent not important? Why is a trans person's request more important than the consent of someone who does not want to give it? How is this something moral, and not just the complaining of a child like mind that wants control over others?

Pronouns for most people represent sex indicators, not gender.
— Philosophim

What planet do you live on? These days, for most people pronouns represent gender indicators. — Ecurb

Incorrect. Most people do not even understand gender as used in gender theory. And you did not invalidate my point that there are people who do use pronouns to refer to sex. The "What planet do you live on?" is an indicator of your frustration in realizing you can't counter that point. I have not been disrespectful towards you. Initial disrespect is always an indicator that you are losing the discussion.

We have freedom of speech. That includes your right to misgender people, and my right to disparage you for it. I'm not threatening to throw you in prison, or fine you. — Ecurb

And where did I say I would be thrown into prison or fined? That's irrelevant. If you want to disparage my consent, that's fine. But then I hold the moral high ground, and you don't. There's one common thing among all criminals: The disparagement of consent.

With regard to lies: I'm a fan of Mark Twain, who said, "Show me a man who don't lie and I'll show you a man who ain't got much to say." — Ecurb

So you are agreeing with me that its a lie, and that people are being asked to lie for someone else's feelings.

Generous, good-natured lies harm no one, facilitate happiness and lubricate social interaction. Lies in and of themselves are not wicked; they are wicked only if harmful or malicious. — Ecurb

And yet you disregarded my entire point above that these are not good natured or harmless lies. You are claiming they are good natured, you have not given any points indicating they actually are. I find your request quite evil at this point. This is coming from an atheist as well.

Your "consent" is trivial. — Ecurb

If your 'good natured lies' make my consent trivial, then you share the same mentality as a thief. Your argument essentially says my consent is irrelevant, and I should just lie for social cohesion. You have not yet given a good reason why my consent is irrelevant, or why the request for another person to lie isn't itself a violation of social cohesion. I would say a much better social situation is to be among people who can be honest with each other and trust each other to speak honestly.

I'm not seeing a very good moral justification from you, and your disregard of consent puts you at being morally suspect at this point. Please take your next post seriously and put some effort in giving some substantive reasoning and even a little willingness to consider the importance of consent. If you don't do that, I don't think there's a single person who could reasonably confirm that what you're saying is good.

Fantastic then! I'm glad we both got somewhere. You made me look at my own theory critically as well, and that is very much appreciated.

Not true. Of course it's a mere vernal sin to call people by one name when they've asked to be called by another. Nonetheless, kind, well-mannered people won't do it. You don't "have to" -- but it's rude not to. — Ecurb

No, you need to clarify why its rude, not merely declare it. It is not rude to not give consent to lying, duplicity, or pretend games because it makes another person feel good. This is the same line selfish men and women use when they hit on someone and there's rejection. Yes, rejection can make another person feel bad, but when that rejection is about consent, the person who is rejected needs to behave like a proper adult, not take it personally, and respect that the other person had no obligation to agree to the request.

The same is true for titles. If someone asks to be called Ms. Jones instead of Mrs. Jones, it's rude not to comply. Why should pronouns be so different? — Ecurb

Fair question. Titles are indicators of both sex and marriage status. Ms. is marriage status neutral, while Mrs. is not. If someone is not married and tells me to call them Mrs. anyway because they hate feeling like they aren't married, they're asking me to lie for their emotional benefit. That's a consent request. I am not obligated to, it is not polite to, or moral to say yes. That is my personal choice.

Pronouns for most people represent sex indicators, not gender. Meaning if I see that you're a female acting like a male, I'm still accurate and truthful in labeling you 'her'. That's not rude. That's not impolite. If someone is personally bothered by a normal interaction, that is for them to deal with, not anyone else. If they ask me to lie to them, or use pronouns in a way I wouldn't normally, that's fine. But its a consent request again, not an obligation, a moral certitude, or even polite. I have full choice to accept or reject without any wrongdoing on my part either way.

Is it so important to recognize a genetic or biological truth in a pronoun? Doesn't finding that important indicate prejudice? And if it isn't important, why not act in the interest of kindness and comply with the person's wishes? — Ecurb

All good questions again.

1. Many of us like to use language to convey what we believe and see about the world. It is important for many of us not to lie where possible. Some people don't mind. Others do. That's why its a consent request.

2. A prejudice is a 'pre-judgement' about some thing. So if I looked at a woman and thought, "Women should wear dresses all the time," that's a prejudice. My noting that a woman is a woman, and me being right about that (woman meaning 'adult human female') is the exact denial of prejudice. There is no pre-judgement anymore, there is simply the fact of the matter.

3. Because you have not demonstrated why it is kind to lie. Or why it is kind to request that another person lie for your personal benefit. I do not find it kind it most situations. If someone is walking around saying they're a man when they're clearly not, its not kind to lie to them for their feelings. I respect people's intellect and maturity. If I think you can't handle being told basic facts or truths, its because I think you're an inferior person to me. Should I treat trans gender people like they're inferior to me, mentally incapable of handling the fact that I see their natal sex? Or should I treat them like they're an adult and can handle it? I think the later is kindness and respect, the former is pity and patronizing.

Your seeming obsession with the topic is bizarre. — Ecurb

Why is it an obsession? I've written many different philosophical discussions, and only two on trans gender issues over two months. I would hardly call that an obsession. Obviously its a current event topic that lots of people feel the need to talk about. Isn't talking about things good? We're both communicating our side and treating each other like adults who can handle each other's differences.

Let's just try to get along, and when people ask us the favor of referring to them by a particular name or pronoun (which may be different from their birth assignment) why get all hoity-toity about it? — Ecurb

Because I am allowed the respect of my consent. And you don't get to disparage me for deciding what I do, and do not consent to in my life. Trans gender people do not have anything special about them over myself. Just as I would not expect that its moral to violate their consent either.

Wouldn't it be kinder and easier just to do them that small favor? — Ecurb

No as I've mentioned above. Philosophically, instead of asserting that this is moral, make a case that it is. Why are their feelings more important than my consent? Why is it kind to tell them something we both know isn't true?

You and I both hold that there are things independent of our own context.

It’s not about the different ways that people can come to recognize the independence of reality, or the temperamental and development differences that lead them to engage with reality in different ways. It’s about what commitments are implicitly presupposed in the act of inquiry itself. — Esse Quam Videri

Let me ask you this in response. If there was nothing to inquire, would inquiry exist? At a more tangible level, if an intelligence didn't invent cell phones, would they exist? No. Meaning that inquiry must necessarily involve some thing doing the inquiry. That is why it varies from person to person. There is nothing necessary in an inquirer. Some people ask a question rhetorically. Some inquire and seek personal validation in their predetermined conclusion.

The only thing I can give is that there is a way that we can inquire which logically leads to the truth rationally if what we are looking at is true. The other method of inquiry, induction, can also be categorized cogently. Meaning if someone decided to inquire using plausibility, "There's a magic unicorn in the forest," I can return with, "Magic isn't possible, its never been shown to exist" and dismiss their induction as less cogent than mine. I can create a system of inquiry that rationally, leads to the correct outcome based on rational justification instead of belief or guess work.

In other words, there is a logic and a set of commitments that are implicitly presupposed in the act of asking a question. To say that these things are “presupposed” is to say that the act of asking a question would be incoherent without them; they are constitutive of what it means to ask a question. — Esse Quam Videri

I don't think we can find a universal implicitness that impacts all inquirers. I think we can establish a means of inquiry that is most rational, identify means of inquiry that are less rational, but I don't think there is a universal implicit expectation from every inquirer when they ask a question.

So what I am arguing is that robust notions of truth, error and reality are implicitly presupposed within inquiry as norms governing correctness, and that these are not reducible to weaker notions such as endorsement, misuse or coherence without loss. — Esse Quam Videri

Perhaps if we added an adjective like 'rational inquiry', this could be narrowed down a bit more? At that point we can use the theory to demonstrate what a rational inquiry is, and this would be rational for all discrete experiencers who can comprehend contradictions. Beyond this, I'm not sure what else to add.

When we engage in inquiry we are intrinsically oriented toward a reality that is determinate independently of our beliefs. If we weren’t, notions like truth, error and reality would lose their meaning and inquiry would become unrecognizable in comparison to what we actually do and say in practice. — Esse Quam Videri

If we say "Rational inquiry", I think I can agree. Inquiry in general has no such requirements.

If this is still unclear, no worries. I have really enjoyed our conversation. It has given me plenty to think about, and I hope it has for you as well. — Esse Quam Videri

Same! I too have enjoyed your writing, your questions, and your genuine points. Whether we agree or not at this point, you are a credit to these boards, and I hope to have more discussions with you on other topics in the future. Thank you for lending your view point to this.

Who cares what bathroom people use? — Ecurb

Generally the people of a particular sex for the bathrooms. There are clearly signs marked men and women right? So obviously a lot of people care. But that's not an argument or the point of the discussion.

OK -- ideally, we would get rid of prejudice. Even if we did, though, some trans people would prefer others using their new pronouns. — Ecurb

No objection at all, they are free to do so.

Out of kindness and good manners, we should all comply. — Ecurb

Why? How have you reasoned this is good? This seems to me that you've been told this is good. Have you questioned it? Feel free to explain it to me.

If someone changes his or her name, do you insist on calling him or her by their birth name (many names are gendered)? — Ecurb

If its a legal name change, no. If its not a legal name change, I'm under no obligation to call them a name they've made up for themselves. Can I call them that? Yes. Do I have to or is it considered good manners? Not at all. That's up to the each individual to decide. Its called consent. When you ask someone to lie or do something that isn't a legal qualifier, that person needs to give consent. You don't get to guilt, shame, or mark a person who does not give consent as immoral. If a woman turned down a man's sexual advances, should the woman be shamed? The man who wanted the advances returned might, but we've learned that's the real shameful behavior.

Back to your earlier point, asking someone to call you the sex that you aren't, is an act of asking consent. Not politeness, obligation, moral certainty, or anything equaling good. Its a social request, and one everyone is free to turn down. That is what is moral, good, and polite. Asking consent, and accepting the answer given no matter if its affirmative or negative.

Why insist on their birth gender? — Ecurb

There is no birth gender. Gender is a prejudice about a person's sex. There is only birth sex. Everyone's prejudices about the sexes is different, and prejudice should never be held as something we should uphold in any capacity.

At work, and among close acquaintances most people would presumably know that the trans person was trans. It's still good manners to use their preferred pronouns — Ecurb

No, because most people use pronouns for sex, not gender. You're asking a person to use pronouns in a prejudicial way instead of a biological way. Politeness is asking for consent and accepting when a person says no. I for one do not like to participate in sexism. I don't think the way a man or woman looks or dresses changes who they are by sex, and I think 'gender' is just prejudice that I don't want to partake in. Wouldn't I be the person with the higher moral standards here? If not, why not?

Which is more important socially? Biology, or kindness, respect for identity, and honoring the wishes of others? In a social situation, shouldn't social reality trump biological reality? — Ecurb

Instead of asking me, I want to hear your viewpoint. What do you think? This isn't a trap or anything, I genuinely want to know where your thought process is so I can better speak with you.

In addition, it is incorrect to say the "people treat them (people of different genders) just like anyone else". WE all have been enculturated to treat women different from men. OF course, it may be true that this involves prejudice. — Ecurb

The important part that we agree on here is that gender is prejudice. To be clear, we need to separate gender from sex expectation which involves biological reality. For example, most women bleed once a month. Should we allow facilities in the bathroom for this particular issue? Yes. But that's not gender, that's objective biological reality. There may be a confusion that conflates gender with sex. They are not the same at all. Gender is "I think women shouldn't wear top hats." That's it. Its a subjective opinion that can be shared among a culture in how a man or woman should act in society that has nothing to do with their objective biological reality.

If we know that men are taller on average than women, and we are making a shelf height in a place that primarily caters to women, making the shelf height to the average of female heights is not gender or prejudice, its simply adjusting to expected sex differences. All of this is fine.

The chivalry of "women and children first to the lifeboats" is great for women, except that it compares them to helpless children. — Ecurb

Yes, and isn't the real issue that we need to get rid of this prejudice? Not avoid the issue with equally poor behavior? If you lie to listen to it, you're tacitly agreeing with it. That doesn't change things or make a better world.

It remains the case that gender influence social interactions, possibly due to prejudice, possibly due to differing training and upbringings. — Ecurb

And do you think that's good or that we should accept that? I don't. Is that a problem?

Perhaps trans people want to be treated (and act) in accordance with their new gender. — Ecurb

I would tell anyone that wants to double down on prejudice or sexism not to. I would also tell a person that they shouldn't live their life by how they want people to look at them, as that's also a fool's errand. People are going to have their own judgements about you no matter what you do. Its best to just live your life for you, and live despite other people's expectations of you.

The flaw is obvious.
If prejudice and discrimination of trans people didn't exist, you might have a point. — Ecurb

There is discrimination and prejudice against almost everyone. Its part of life. The goal should be to make sure other people aren't discriminatory right and sexist right? You avoided the argument and straw manned into something else which I will address momentarily. But first the short person. The short person is in the wrong because they are lying. Instead of growing past their insecurities, they put their insecurities on everyone else to adapt to. That's wrong.

Second, wearing stilts doesn't actually make them tall. I shouldn't have to explain why a man running around in stilts in the NBA isn't allowed. Same with men in women's spaces and vice versa.

Ok, now to your other point.

Suppose a black person (maybe one of Thonmas Jefferson's children) -- back in the days of slavery -- wanted to pass as white. If he were seen as black he could have been sold into slavery, he could have been convicted of miscegenation (if he had a white wife), and he could have been the victim of more general prejudice. — Ecurb

Isn't the more important thing to get rid of slavery and prejudice? "Lets fix a wrong with a wrong" is not a solution in an advanced culture. This is also a gross exaggeration of what transitioned people have to do through in the West. You can show up transitioned at work, everyone knows you're a trans person, and harassment and mistreatment isn't tolerated. So, lets assume that a transitioned person can go to work, has to use their natal sex bathroom, does not get called pronouns by gender, but their natal sex, and people treat them just like anyone else otherwise. You now have zero cause. Meaning your cause was never the right cause, only a poor compensation to handle a bigger cause.

It's not irrelevant to trans people. Perhaps they'd prefer not to be discriminated against, and if "passing" for a gender different from their birth sex helps them do this, I don't see the problem. — Ecurb

Yes, it is irrelevant to any person of any type. If a person is short, they're going to be seen as short. Does it mean you don't point it out as a fact when its pertinent? No. Does it mean they should receive abuse because they're short? No. A transitioned person is not special or should have any exceptions in how they are treated as a person.

If a short person goes around walking on stilts in their spare time its fine. If they start demanding they be called a tall person, they're wrong. If they start demanding to be put on the basketball team because they're tall, they're also mistaken. Saying, "I need to be on the basketball team to avoid discrimination" doesn't make any sense. Am I wrong? I don't think so, but see if you can point out where you see a flaw.

Of course people's prejudices shouldn't be elevated -- but they probably would be. — Ecurb

That's irrelevant. People are going to elevate prejudices whether you intone a separate identity or not. You can't use language to stop people from seeing differences. You can only teach people to not be prejudiced or sexist.

Oh no! Out of politeness, we practice some minor ambiguity! Horrors! — Ecurb

I'm glad you agree with the OP. My point was not a judgement about whether it was polite or not. Only pointing out its flaw as a phrase.

To return to the OP, assigning gendered roles is not "sexist" in the normal use of the word. Sexism suggests that some gender-based roles are more valuable than others, those assigned them are thus more valuable than others. — Ecurb

That is definitely sexism also, but that does not invalidate that sexism is also when you elevate a gendered role over the person. For example, if a little boy came to me and said, "I was called a girl because I like dolls," I would explain to him that how you act, do, and like has nothing to do with the fact you're a boy. Same as if a boy didn't like football, being aggressive, or any other prejudices associated with being male.

Division of labor based on sex (gender?) is traditional in all human societies. Women gathered; men hunted. Women nursed the children (I admit that trans women may not be able to) and gathering plant-based food allowed them to carry the babies with them. This division became "sexist" when hunting and warfare were seen as more honorable and valuable than gathering. — Ecurb

If it was based on the most efficient use of physical capability, it would not be sexist. If a woman who was best capable to hunt was forced into housework, that's sexist.

If "sexism" is a form of discrimination that harms or devalues some people, wouldn't having unique terms for trans men or trans women be MORE likely to lead to such prejudice and discrimination? — Ecurb

No. The recognition of difference does not imply that people's prejudices about those differences should be elevated above the reality of them.

We should accept people's desired gender identification whether of or not it is innate. It's simply good manners -- like accepting people changing their names. We should accept homosexuality whether or not it is innate. — Ecurb

The OP is not a question of accepting or not accepting trans individuals, and being gay has nothing to do with being trans. Its pointing out that the phrase used to communicate a certain concept is linguistically ambiguous at best, and is most logically read as something they do not want to claim. "Trans men are men" is not meant to imply that a trans man is an adult human male. But linguistically, that is the most rational way to read the phrase. As such they need to stop using it, or amend it to fully communicate as one example "Trans men are adult human females who act in male gendered ways."

"Sex assigned at birth" is an inaccurate expression. It should be "Sex inferred at birth". — Throng

Of course.

Gender is not a valid concept because it is an identity feature. Identity seems to be a perfect, simple identity (which in itself has no features), that possesses features such as a 'gender'. I seriously doubt that is a true story. I have a sex, an age, a height, a certain ancestry etc. - that's a true story - but if I say 'I'm a man'... I have no idea what that means. — Throng

Gender is an identity based on prejudices. A 'man' by gender has nothing to do with their actual body or sex, but how a person thinks a person of that body and sex should act in public. A scalpel is given to remove that sociological expectation from that sex, and place it onto another. Thus I could be an adult human female but have the gender of a man, or "Act in ways in society in ways that I think only adult human men should act.' And of course, if you elevate gender over your sex, you've fallen into sexism.

And this post is an attempt to get away from that.

My argument is, you can't. This isn't a position which only seems political on the surface, but underneath it is making a good faith sincere general point about language. The reality is: this is politics all the way down, with nothing underneath but more politics. The politics of the trans movement is doing aren't there to serve their preferences about language as a goal: their preferences about langauge are only a means to their overtly political ends. — BenMcLean

And I would argue that while you might be right for some people, for others they deem it to be a real sociological discovery. There are people who believe that an adult human male can take on the gender of an adult human female. And the phraseology in question is an attempt to describe this compactly. My point is that linguistically this is slang, and does not accurately convey the intention of the phrase. For some, they definitely view the phrase as political. An insistence on a phrase for political purposes is what idiots do, and they aren't worth talking to anyway.

This is for people who are really trying to dissect the phrase and think about it in non-political way. Is there credence to the phrase in good language? Do we understand it? Can we improve it? The conclusion is clear that its a poor phrase that needs more clarity, and as is, will not logically be read by most people unfamiliar with the culture of trans as what is intended which is "Trans men are adult human women who act socially in ways people associate with adult human men."

Put differently: contradiction doesn’t create objectivity; it reveals a failure relative to an objectivity that judgment already presupposes. Even in cases where no contradiction ever shows up, we still take our judgments to be answerable to how things really are, not merely to what has survived so far. — Esse Quam Videri

I don't have a definite answer at this point, but its something to think on. Do we by default take our judgements as answerable to how things really are, or do you think most people simply assume their judgements are the way things are?

Put another way, I think there may be a personality difference here. There are some people who are constantly questioning whether their judgements are concurrent with reality, and those who are constantly surprised when its not. Some people get angry that their judgements are not being respected by reality, and others who are flexible and respectful of the outside forces that impinge on their judgements.

What I'm describing is the factual way I see people form knowledge. What I can't describe is the feeling a person has while doing it. I can describe that water is di-hydrogen monoxide. I can't describe what its like to feel it on your skin as you swim through it. A person could feel like they are pushing the water out of their way as they swim, or feel that the water is propelling them as they push against it. A person can feel hot, or 'not as cold'.

There are people who feel that the loch ness monster is real because of a few pictures. "See? That's all the proof we need." Their lives are in the affirmative of their judgements as being real, and reality is there to affirm them. Others will say, "Is that really enough evidence to claim that its real?" Those 'Debbie Downers" to the believers seem to lack wonder or 'openness' to the wonder and imagination of the world.

I’d just want to say that the possibility of contradiction has its significance only because judgment is already oriented toward a reality that is determinate independently of our beliefs, not merely because we sometimes get corrected by experience. — Esse Quam Videri

I think this is a personality difference. I think many of us have a will towards our own judgments first, then learn about an independent world because life contradicts us. Perhaps studying babies and kids would help us see this more. Kids aren't born with the notion of object permanence. Its only around 4-7 months of living that kids finally start to realize that things can exist outside of their immediate perception.

A large point about judgement is to recognize the world for action. When you go up to a door, do you carefully examine its hinges and structure to make sure its a door, or do you make a snap judgement to open it and move about your day? What if the door actually contained spy equipment that monitored your every action, but you would need to take it to a special lab to find out? We cannot go about our day constantly fearful that the next step we take will send us through to a hidden dimension where we will never return. So while when we're carefully thinking about something logically we might look for contradictions, in general this is a halting and inactive viewpoint as a person tries to reason through everything they can possibly think of.

Is the glass half-full, half-empty, or 'in the middle'? This is a feeling about the fact that the glasses' volume is divided equally between compact air and water. As I mentioned earlier, a person can view the universe as having no God with despair, or retain their curiosity and wonder about it. I feel the same about the knowledge theory here. I can only conclude at this point that we affirm the reality of our own experiences, and logically are only aware of there being something outside of them by contradictions. Some might be more inclined to feel we're lead more by affirmatives about the world instead of contradictions. But does that change the underlying logic of how inquiry and rationality works? I don't think so.

But what do you think? Is it more than a feeling?

It requires only that judgments be answerable to how things are, independently of whether we ever fully grasp them. When we say that a claim about the world is wrong (not merely incomplete or misapplied) we are presupposing that there is a determinate way things are that the claim fails to answer to. — Esse Quam Videri

That would be what a contradiction is. A contradiction is the world telling us, "Our idea about reality is wrong." We cannot will a contradiction away. If I jump out of an airplane without a parachute, no matter how I perceive the world or will it, I will fall to my death. Contradictions are proof that there are things outside of ourself and our own willpower.

So it’s not a question of whether the results of inquiry are always provisional or contextually-scoped in practice, but whether the act of inquiry (especially in acts of judgement) itself presupposes that reality is unconditionally determinate independent of our provisional conclusions about it, thereby preserving robust notions of truth and error. — Esse Quam Videri

Because at any time we could be contradicted, we are reminded of a potential unconditional independent of our conclusions about it. The truth is that you will be contradicted, and that contradiction to your idea of the world is an undeniable error in your judgement.

Does that cover it? I'm not sure what else you would be looking for at this point, but please continue if there is.

This is not the same as saying merely that we are finite and fallible, or that inquiry is ongoing. It implies something much stronger - namely, that there is no fact of the matter that could ever settle a judgment as finally correct, because any purported settlement is always relative to a context, stage or set of conditions that could always, in principle, be revised. — Esse Quam Videri

This is a valid concern. Forgive me if you're already replying to my last post. I figured this would be a good summary.

1. That we discretely experience is an actual truth. The act itself, not what we think about it. Factually, there is nothing more that can ever be discovered that would undermine it.
2. There is always a question about our application using discrete experience. Its unavoidable as we are applying one experience and truth we directly have, to something else that we do not have full control or potential comprehension over.
3. In theory, one could arrive at the truth of everything if one had full context. So if we could sense it all from a bird's eye view, and be able to perceive and sense everything that was possible to perceive and sense, what is deductive and what is reasonably inductive would be true, but it would still be within the context of a perceiver.

So, the only context of truth which we are privy to discover is that we discretely experience. Everything else is built on this, and the fact that our application of them can be contradicted. Thus full knowledge is a blend of a true foundation, and rational approaches to attempting to understand the world outside of that true foundation. This would not change given more information or findings, this is also a truth. One way to think of it is, "I can be me. But I can never be anything else. And to know something else in itself fully, I must actually be that thing fully."

I don't think there's any possible way to know what is true outside of ourselves, but it is true to know our own experiences in themselves. I hope that summarizes the point I was trying to make in my last post.

The movement is very, very overtly political and always has been. — BenMcLean

And this post is an attempt to get away from that. Its about putting the knives down on both sides and asking some rational questions just about language. Linguistically, the phrase, "Trans men are men," is not detailed enough to truly communicate what it intends, "Trans men are women who take on the gender of a man." If people want to debate the meaning of the later, that's fine. But the point here is that the original phrase is ambiguous and does not clearly convey its message in broader communication apart from its very limited cultural context.

If you wish to post something of your own on the political philosophy of trans ideology, feel free. But its not really what this thread is about, and staying someone on topic is good etiquete and practice.

When it comes to gaytrans, language is the battlefield, not held in common at all.

If you go listing your preferred pronouns, then that act is the most definite public signal of your entire political platform that you can make. — BenMcLean

Another thing I do is not make political statements. I'm very apolitical in philosophy and life. I think it distorts actual thought. Politics is often times not about thinking, its about winning. Philosophical discussions should be able to be considered by anyone regardless of political background. They should be just as critical of itself as it should of the topic its pointed at.

And that assumption that society is arbitrarily constructed and that human nature is not fixed comes from their ideological grounding in Marxism. — BenMcLean

This is overly political and I see no evidence of this. No offence, but I'm interested in talking about the topic of the OP, and this is veering off.

Gender (or sex, which is in fact synonymous no matter what anyone says) is more than a social role. — BenMcLean

For the purposes of this discussion, gender is not sex. It is the social belief in how a sex should act in society. They really are different.

The rest is really off topic Ben. I mean this friendly, so don't misunderstand. Philosophy is not about griping about people. Its not about 'a group'. Its about universal concepts, about trying to construct a logical framework in whatever subject you're looking at. That takes careful building from basic premises to a conclusion. What you're doing here is taking a lot of things you personally believe about a group of people, then asserting things you believe this leads to. That's an opinion, not philosophy.

If you would like to practice philosophy with me, feel free to read the OP again and make comments about it. I've also written quite a few other philosophical papers and OPs, so you can get a feel for what philosophy is and isn't. Check out a few other posts if you're interested in learning what its about. But avoid the trolls. You know who they are. :)