What terrifies you may not terrify me. The difference is not in the sight, but in he who beholds it. The question is not "why is that sight terrifying", but "why are you terrified it"? — NOS4A2
The answer ought to be personal because you are responsible for being terrified of it. — NOS4A2
The question is who or what inspires him. Your own suggestion puts words as the agent of inspiration, capable of animating the reader. That's magical thinking. It's sorcery. The point is to try and avoid magical thinking, to describe the interaction literally and accurately. — NOS4A2
But refusing to use them is difficult, only possible through a sheer act of will — NOS4A2
The words on a page become a subject, while the reader is relegated to the status of a passive object. — NOS4A2
So no, an orator cannot incite a crowd to violence and create a violent situation with words. — NOS4A2
You are referring to a kind of "constant" use of definitions in a discussion, writing or speech. And your points make sense. — Alkis Piskas
However, I have talked about basic, key terms in a duscussion. — Alkis Piskas
And that one must know what the person who is using them means with them, when this is obviously not evident. — Alkis Piskas
You can well define "capitalism" as "People selling stuff for money", if this is what capitalism means to you. If you get cricised for it, that would be a mistake. — Alkis Piskas
When one looks for the essence of something, its description is always simple. — Alkis Piskas
Well, what about givind a definition the meaning of a term --maybe in obe's own words or with some modifications-- without mentioning the dictionary? — Alkis Piskas
Therefore, isn't the fact of bringing up a dictionary of secondary importance? — Alkis Piskas
How did they get to know about the meaning of words and esp. terms and even more esp. of abstract ideas (concepts) in the first place? — Alkis Piskas
2) How can they expect to communicate effectively with others if they don't know the standard, common, agreed upon definitions/meanings of terms — Alkis Piskas
Therefore, we can't just use the term "sensation" or "feeling" without specifying what we exactly we mean by that. Isn't that right? — Alkis Piskas
I don't believe there should be a limit at all. The concern for me is the floor for everyone else. — Philosophim
I would say mainly due to the British Empire first and foremost. — I like sushi
Some values are better than others. Not sure how you could argue otherwise? — I like sushi
As relates to the English term "love", I so far maintain that it can only bifurcate into "unity of being" of various types and into "strong-liking-of", which again can come in various types. Both seem to me to belong to the umbrella concept - itself an abstraction - of "affinity" but that, whereas "love" can be a verb, "affinity" cannot - to my mind partly explaining why love can in English be used in both senses. — javra
I so far find the same can be said of consciousness, for example. — javra
I myself don't situate thing in terms of ethics playing a role in love, but of love playing an integral role in ethics. I'm coming from the vantage that love, unity of being, is ethical - in so far as being good, — javra
The more we deviate from the ideal of love should be, the worse, and so more bad, the situation becomes, despite the feelings held. — javra
But I grant that this plays into an ontological interpretation of love which doesn't fit that of it strictly being a biologically evolved set of emotions or feelings. And it might be this which we at base actually disagree on (?). — javra
To give just two examples of how "animal" doesn't hold universal attributes as abstraction among all people that utilize the term. — javra
But yet when looked at more impartially, what an animal is can be pinpointed with relative stability, this as biology does. — javra
Do you disagree that love is an abstraction abstracted from, ultimately, concrete particulars? — javra
It’s often been said that “love is nothin’ more than chemicals in the brain”. But then, what of anything cognitive—percepts, convictions, thoughts, disdains, etc.—that relies upon the brain’s operations doesn’t consist of neurotransmitters? — javra
One form of this which is relatively commonly known to moderners being that of “God = Love (this rather than an omnipotent and omniscient male psyche somewhere up in the skies)”. — javra
If it is, then as abstraction it will hold its own properties which equally apply to all subspecies of love, each its own abstraction, which in turn will each hold properties applicable to, ultimately, concrete particulars — javra
Love, then, would be endowed with a fixed set of universal attributes relative to what it is an abstraction of in like manner to how animal, for example, is so endowed. — javra
Do words have to "be" the things they refer to have content? — Count Timothy von Icarus
Do words necessarily have to refer to unique things or can they refer to general principles/universals — Count Timothy von Icarus
Moreover, can't they refer to sets, potentially sets of universals that share properties? — Count Timothy von Icarus
Would it likewise be absurd to discuss energy because it can be broken down into kinetic energy, nuclear, electric, etc.? — Count Timothy von Icarus
That people can disagree on the meanings of words or sensory data doesn't really say much because some people will disagree about virtually everything. — Count Timothy von Icarus
And yet it seems like there must be some causal explanation underlying the application of the same word to diffuse states and some causal explanation for how people generally understand these words so easily. — Count Timothy von Icarus
I don't agree at all that people would be at a total loss if someone were to say they are experiencing "pain" and they failed to specify which type of pain. They still have an idea of what is being referenced. — Count Timothy von Icarus
"Invented concepts," cannot be free floating from the world unless language is causally distinct. — Count Timothy von Icarus
is the argument that words only have meanings to the extent that they are operationalized? — Count Timothy von Icarus
Surely, people can be "more right," about describing things than others, — Count Timothy von Icarus
It's an assertion more than an argument. One on par to asserting that "pain" is a concept we invented, but not an aspect of our reality as psyches to be understood or discovered. — javra
As though everything psychological concerns concepts we invent rather than aspects of our own ontological being we discern introspectively — javra
I get that. But if "words are not concepts" then words will convey concepts, and concepts are nothing more then abstractions (e.g.,"animal") of concrete givens (e.g., "that grey mouse over there"), with concrete givens including the states of being we experience as psyches. — javra
On what rational argument or via what data do you find reason to doubt that this rudimentary distinction between unity of being and strong liking is a human universal? — javra
However, in my experience, there seems to be a strong similarity in the way I love my parents, my son, my wife, my friends, God, and even my country that doesn't apply to most things that I like. — Count Timothy von Icarus
You're here focusing on a sense of "authentic" unrelated to the one I made use of in this context: love as unity of being as being authentic love, with strong-liking being inauthentic love. — javra
I can see the arguments for a sort of ontological nominalism, but I don't see a case for generally preferencing specifics over general principles — Count Timothy von Icarus
No one doubts that imbalanced, or unharmonious, interpersonal love typically results in psychological pain to one party if not to all. — javra
Yet, in so affirming, the implicit issue becomes that of what a perfectly balanced, or perfectly harmonious, love would be—and it is the latter which idealistic youngsters (to name a few) typically aim for. — javra
I for one fully agree with (authentic) love being a drive to maintain and increase unity of being, a "transcendent unity" so to speak. — javra
When one loves another sentient agent, aspects of the other’s being become an integral part of oneself for as long as the love persists, and, in due measure to the love experienced, one will be readily willing to risk personal suffering and corporeal death so as to aim at preserving the love which is, if such risk is required. — javra
Mainly want to make the point that there is a substantial ontological difference between love as unity of being and love as strong liking of. The two are distinct. — javra
Love (in the strict sense of: an either conscious or unconscious drive to maintain if not also increase unity of being) is perpetually present and inescapable for any lifeform which perpetuates its own life, this minimally in the form of self-love (although one need not also like oneself for this self-love to be). — javra
This seems to me to be the nub of our differences. Opinions are not meaningless. — Banno
If they are logically indistinguishable from moral truths (they are not...) then moral truths are not meaningless, either. — Banno
there are statements that we think of as true or as false, that say how folk ought behave; and we make use of these statements in deductions. — Banno
Certainly not. I don't think I've made any such claim. Cite me. Nor is that an implication of what has been said - if it is, show your argument. — Banno
Your argument is that moral truths are intractable, therefore you will save yourself some trouble by simply asserting that they do not exist. — Banno
They are all well-formed sentences of English. What's eccentric here, if anything, is the insistence that there can be no moral truths. — Banno
"Should"? The term exists and has a long standing place in English despite your misgivings. — Banno
We all agree to the fact that coffee is delicious, and a great way to start the day. Despite the fact that cockroaches are disgusting and terrifying, some folk keep them as pets. While it is a fact that Germany is a wonderful country to visit, I would prefer to visit Turkey. The fact is I tried shopping at a market near me, but everything was overpriced. So now I travel looking for bargains. Thanks — Banno
Ha, but how much of philosophy is just that! — Count Timothy von Icarus
That one ought not kick puppies for fun is a moral statement.
It is a true statement that one ought not kick puppies for fun.
Facts are true statements.
Therefore there are moral facts. — Banno
Pretty sad, I must say, to create a philosophy predicated on the convenience of a phrase. — Mww
This is Plato's point in the Republic when he discusses the parts of the soul and how they can be set against one another. — Count Timothy von Icarus
But if we want to be free, we need to be self-determining, which means we seek the transcendent cause from within. — Count Timothy von Icarus
Does the man possess free will or not? If interlocutors in some discussion don’t agree, then they may not be discussing the same concept. Which might imply they will never agree. — Art48
So, is this a "it's turtles all the way down" situation, where language references only language with no other reference point / correspondence? — Echarmion
But what about rules that don't seem mutable by human though or action? What we call the laws of physics can be expressed in infinite ways linguistically, but the rules remain the same. — Echarmion
Gravity will not reverse and pull you into the clouds if you define up as down. — Echarmion
Aren't you making the claim by writing it? This is slightly confusing to me. — Echarmion
But isn't what people are concerned in this scenario the negation of a value judgement? That is they're not concerned with what the word means in the sense of a dictionary definition. Rather the goal is to exclude a certain behaviour from the positive value judgement that's emotionally connected to the language. — Echarmion
But could it not also be a priori? — Echarmion
I think that's the core of our disagreement. From the perspective of some theoretical Maxwell's demon, everyone is wrong and their truths contingent on their beliefs, circumstances etc. But from the perspective of the people doing the talking and thinking, their truth is the truth. — Echarmion
Yeah, once lab meat costs one tenth of the meat traditionally produced by animal husbandry, you know what you will be eating in a BigMac at McDonalds. — ssu
And what I fear are health problems of what use of lab meat will have. — ssu
I'm not seeing any reason why reindeer herding would stop for some reason. Human species is an omnivore and not a vegan. And just like reindeer herding, animal husbandry something that we can do quite ecologically (as 1000 years of reindeer herding shows). — ssu
100%. — Vera Mont
It won't be driven primarily by moral consideration, though that is an ever-present factor, but by aesthetic sensibility: killing is messy; preparing meat is icky. — Vera Mont
That is by no means an inconsequential factor in social evolution. — Vera Mont
The only way I see it that simply fabricated food, grown from cells etc., will become so cheap that animal husbandry simply can't compete with the new genetical produced lab meat. Then it can happen. — ssu
Who better to promote the "animal meat is murder" than the industry manufacturing non-animal non-sentient "lab meat" at a cheap cost in huge industrial size "laboratories"? — ssu
No.
Morality is not the driver of things, nor does it evolve on it's own/following it's own logic. Rather, morality is a by-product of, or is at least enabled by, other non-moral processes. — ChatteringMonkey
The situation with slavery shows that even though it is officially condemned, new forms of slavery are springing up all the same, perhaps even more pernicious, more insidious than the traditional forms. — baker
I don't understand this, specifically I don't understand why actuality and "correct reference" aren't one and the same here. — Echarmion
So truth always signals the applicability of the language used in the claim to the situation? — Echarmion
But basically it seems to me there needs to be some common mental framework language can use — Echarmion
I just meant it as what is actually the case as opposed to what's possible. — Echarmion
I like the somewhat playful phrase that truth is that which asserts itself regardless of your wishes. — Echarmion
Is there a truth value to "This box is too heavy to carry"? If "this box" weighs 5kg or 50kg, or if one person is carrying it, or eight, would you agree that such factors are relevant? The box might be "too heavy" to carry without risk of injury, but not "too heavy" to carry if we disregard the risk of injury. My point is that the statement has multiple truth values. — Judaka
I tend to stay away from technical discussions about what truth is exactly, since they never seem terribly productive — Echarmion
Since humans are capable of entertaining counterfactuals and also of dealing with probabilities and necessary elements, I'd say that there needs to be some faculty for sorting things into possibility/necessity/actuality. — Echarmion
We'd then expect to have language that corresponds to these. — Echarmion
If it's true that there's a tiger in the bush, I must act immediately. — Echarmion
So "truth" would correspond to actuality. — Echarmion
Well, my problem is that I can't really tell what your point is. — Echarmion
My response to this idea is that I do think truth has the same core meaning, or function, across different contexts — Echarmion
The problem is that you are using false statements to support your claim that not all truth is scientific truth. — Leontiskos
That's like saying, "Science isn't Y, but Y under Z, and Z is what we call 'science'." The sentence isn't even coherent. — Leontiskos
Oh, is that right? So you don't think that some truths are scientific truths and some truths are not? You're all tied up in knots. — Leontiskos
Science pursues truth, namely scientific truth. It does not pursue non-scientific truth, such as philosophical or political truths. — Leontiskos
If you write that "context determines truth's qualities, then to me that sounds like "a literal rewrite of the word's meaning". — Echarmion
It seems like we're talking past each other and not getting our points across. — Echarmion
The basic building blocks for thinking and experiencing. Like causality, basic logic operations, basic concepts that allow you to sort and make sense of sensory input. — Echarmion
One of the categories your mind uses to work. — Echarmion
This example works just as well if we assume the term "truth" does exactly the same in both sentences and the difference lies entirely in the claim itself. — Echarmion
My position is indeed that "truth" is just a language tool. It's not "a way to emphasise a statement", it refers to "correct reference", or "the correct answer" or it affirms a statement. — Judaka
Truth is a word changed by its context. — Judaka
Yes, that is the claim you're making, I know. — Echarmion
That context is determinative of truth's qualities. One puts it together for themselves. Whether a truth claim is about "something real" or not. — Judaka
are not the same. I would agree that science is not "the" pursuit of truth. — Arne
That's a good pickup. — Janus
Agreed. The purpose of science is to tell us what it can about nature, not to define it. — Arne
Science pursues truth. It does not pursue expediency, or the promotion of special interests, or the winning of the arms race, etc. (and yet many are deeply confused on this point today). — Leontiskos
Scientific truth is one kind of truth, and therefore scientists pursue truth. Apparently you ran into someone who thinks that only scientists pursue truth, and you reacted by claiming that, "It's incorrect [...] to understand science as a 'pursuit of truth'." The person you ran into is wrong. So are you. You overcorrected. Science is not the only pursuit of truth, but it is a pursuit of truth. — Leontiskos
science isn't "the pursuit of truth" but "the pursuit of truth under a particular set of circumstances", and these circumstances are what we call science. — Judaka