(https://alexpriou.substack.com/p/platos-republic-in-its-thucydidean context)Read in light of Thucydides, the Republic emerges as a cautionary tale regarding the susceptibility of men, living in the midst of great political and moral decay, to grand visions of political and personal transformation, to redemptive and salvific projects both in this life and the next. It is often remarked that the Republic is a book on the limits of politics. This is indeed the case, as Glaucon accepts time and again Socrates’ shocking solutions to the perennial problems of politics. We come to see thereby that, though political judgment admits of better and worse, though there are real goods and harms in how we handle these problems, nevertheless we must on some level learn to live with them.
Which distinction? — 013zen
The world is made up of pictures in our mind; reality is not made up of pictures and certainly not pictures in our mind. — 013zen
(1)The world is all that is the case.
But the city has no business of its own, or rather the business of the city is the sum of everybody's business. — Ludwig V
This applies also to individuals and their parts. — Ludwig V
Agglomeration is all he knows. — Ludwig V
Had you thought what life would be like for the ordinary people in his city? — Ludwig V
And does Socrates/Plato know who the best people are? He doesn't even trust his own philosophers ... — Ludwig V
"noble lie" (a mistranslation if ever there was one) — Ludwig V
we might contrive one of those lies we were referring to earlier
Yes. Arguably, that was Plato's big mistake. The relationship between part and whole is quite different in the two cases. He assumed it was the same. — Ludwig V
(44c)The best people, whose opinions are more worthy of consideration.
We are able to achieve technical sophistication and gross errors. — isomorph
In a private conversation, Roger Ames tried to dissuade me of the notion of finding parallels between western thinking and the “classical Chinese mind.” — isomorph
...as Confucius said, “By nature we are alike, by practice we have become far apart.” — isomorph
He does say that his hardest task is not to refute that actual accusations, but hard to remove the effects of what people have been saying about him for a long time. — Ludwig V
(20d)The fact is, men of Athens, that I have acquired this reputation on account of nothing else than a sort of wisdom. What kind of wisdom is this? Just that which is perhaps human wisdom.
(21c)This man is wiser that I, but you declared that I was the wisest
I don't rule out Socrates enjoying it - as a caricature. But a caricature is not necessarily harmless. — Ludwig V
(216c)I fancy it is not much easier, if I may say so, to recognize this class, than that of the gods. For these men—I mean those who are not feignedly but really philosophers—appear disguised in all sorts of shapes, thanks to the ignorance of the rest of mankind ... sometimes they appear disguised as statesmen,and sometimes as sophists, and sometimes they may give some people the impression that they are altogether mad.
In one's morning routine, ought one brush one's teeth before brushing one's hair or, otherwise, brush one's hair before brushing one's teeth? — javra
Are you saying that Socrates was not maligned? — Ludwig V
...the result of a long persecution — Ludwig V
... right up to his death, always kept the irritable sensibility of the adolescent in resisting the claims of temperaments alien to his own.
(Nietzsche. Zarathustra, XX).Marriage: thus I name the will of two to create the one that is more than those who created it. Reverence for each other, as for those willing with such a will, is what I name marriage. Let this be the meaning and truth of your marriage.
For me, what is most interesting is the difference between two representations of the same event. Assuming that neither side is lying, but that both are selecting, we might expect to get a more balanced view of what actually happened. — Ludwig V
(Poetics 1451b)... poetry is something more scientific and serious than history, because poetry tends to give general truths while history gives particular facts.
It seems to me fitting to hand down to memory, furthermore, how Socrates, on being indicted, deliberated on his defence and on his end. It is true that others have written about this, and that all of them have reproduced the loftiness of his words,—a fact which proves that his utterance really was of the character intimated;—but they have not shown clearly that he had now come to the conclusion that for him death was more to be desired than life; and hence his lofty utterance appears rather ill-considered.
I have often wondered by what arguments those who drew up the indictment against Socrates could persuade the Athenians that his life was forfeit to the state.
(Memorabilia, 2)In this way, I think, you are most likely to escape censure, find relief from your difficulties, live in ease and security, and obtain an ample competence for old age.
But what were the real likely outcomes of the trial? — Ludwig V
The trial was the result of a long persecution, as Socrates tells us in the Apology; that would not have ended. — Ludwig V
It was the first philosophical text I ever read, and still works well with beginning students. — Ludwig V
Seventy was a great age in those days. — Ludwig V
In this case however, anyone who has been introduced to philosophy can tell the article is silly, exposition was never needed. — Lionino
Otherwise, by your account, Socrates actively sort out her company. Xanthippe may have been making the point that Socrates would have no further opportunity to educate his friends after the hemlock, perhaps in an attempt to have him make an effort to save himself. — Banno
My most recent encounter with him was reading his Apology of Socrates and finding that Socrates, in that text, says that he was feeling his age and preferred to be executed by the Athenians rather than endure the long, horrible process of dying of old age. Very different from the flim-flam that Plato treats us to. — Ludwig V
it remains that Xanthippes' presence was undoubted. — Banno
If the name Xanthippe was just dreamed up by Xenophon — Ludwig V
As it is, I think you are reading too much into this. — Ludwig V
What I know of Xenophon doesn't suggest a man likely to make jokes of this kind. — Ludwig V
In a long set-piece, Socrates is shown visiting a beautiful and famous prostitute named Theodote, and conversing with her about friendship and how to treat one’s friends. This highly interesting passage, unique in ancient philosophy in presenting a conversation between a working woman (of dubious social standing even!) and a well-known male philosopher, is full of humor and double-entendre but ends with Socrates inviting Theodote to come philosophize with him and his ‘girlfriends’ any time (Memorabilia III.xi).
That doesn't sound like he's thinking of training horses. — Ludwig V
... a wife who is the hardest to get along with of all the women there are ...
So I don't doubt that I'm justified in disrupting their doubt. — Ludwig V
You can take a horse to the water, but you can't make it drink. — Ludwig V
Someone should, at least from time to time, try to introduce a little doubt into their thinking. — Ludwig V
Socrates doesn't speak of taming Xanthippe, more of getting along with her. — Ludwig V
Mankind at large [and not Xanthippe] is what I wish to deal and associate with ...
While you and I might know better, Cartesian scepticism is unfortunately not uncommon. — Banno
More than a recognition of the other, marriage seeks the likes of Joy in the presence of the other. — Banno
Midgley points out that it is redundant to deduce the existence of one's wife or husband from first principles. Doubt here is absurd. — Banno
So the assumption that her audience would assume that she was talking about marriage as popularly conceived in the mid-20th century is not unreasonable. — Ludwig V
People leading a normal domestic life would not, I believe, have fallen into this sort of mistake.
But how does that show that Plato and Descartes, in their different ways, did not both regard the human soul as radically distinct from physical objects? — Ludwig V
Philosophers did not want the human soul to be mixed up in the world of objects, as it must be to make knowledge possible.
You seem to be suggesting that this is an alternative explanation for someone having difficulty with interpersonal relations. — Ludwig V
It seems likely to me that we would not find a strong correlation between marital status and specific philosophical doctrines, but we need at least to consider the possibility, don't we? — Ludwig V
My course is similar. Mankind at large is what I wish to deal and associate with; and so I have got her, well assured that if I can endure her, I shall have no difficulty in my relations with all the rest of human kind.
This seems to assume a naïve realist view of many things. — Lionino
It seems rather unlikely that Midgley was talking about marriage ancient-Greek-style. Wouldn't the natural assumption be that she meant marriage 20th century style? — Ludwig V
What does that tell us about their philosophy - or indeed about their science? — Ludwig V
Philosophers did not want the human soul to be mixed up in the world of objects, as it must be to make knowledge possible.
Well, we do think it is important to read their work in its context, and sometimes details of their lives give us pause for thought. I'm sure you can think of examples. — Ludwig V
What Midgley does not mention is that Descartes' mother died a year after his birth, that he was sent away at about age ten to the Jesuit college of La Flèche, or that he had a daughter, Francis, who died at the age of five. Rather than a deliberate and immature choice to not develop attachments, his attachments were severed from him. — Fooloso4
Yes, and I think liberalism has made it hard for us to see the higher good shining through our practices. — Leontiskos
I have insufficient grounds to claim there are men ... — Lionino
So perhaps Descartes is never fully convinced that there is an outside world — Lionino
Er, except Cicero, Socrates, Xenophon, and Aurelius were all married men. — Leontiskos
My criticism is not about her misrepresentation of Descartes, it is about her misrepresentation of the history of philosophy. — Fooloso4
Practically all the great European philosophers have been bachelors.
how does it come that you don't practise what you preach by yourself educating Xanthippe, but live with a wife who is the hardest to get along with of all the women there are—yes, or all that ever were, I suspect, or ever will be?
Because I observe that men who wish to become expert horsemen do not get the most docile horses but rather those that are high-mettled, believing that if they can manage this kind, they will easily handle any other. My course is similar. Mankind at large is what I wish to deal and associate with; and so I have got her, well assured that if I can endure her, I shall have no difficulty in my relations with all the rest of human kind.
She refers to Aristotle but neglects to address the natural household relation that Aristotle discusses first, namely, master and slave. Nor does she address the numerous problems he discusses regarding marriage including war, destruction of cities, and revolution. Much of what he says regarding marriage centers around the division or labor and property. (Politics, Book 1) — Fooloso4
Philosophers did not want the human soul to be mixed up in the world of objects, as it must be to make knowledge possible.
But perhaps their attachment to ataraxia or apatheia shows their attitude to it. — Ludwig V
So I don't think you are on the right track here. — Banno
Indeed, one of the claims of Metaphysical Animals is that the (women) were to a large degree responsible for the rejection of Ayer's positivism and a returned emphasis on the classics. — Banno
There are many in these parts who fall short for being enamored of novelty. — Leontiskos
It was the novelty and promise of 20th century analytic philosophy to which many at Oxford and elsewhere were enamored. A disregard for the history of philosophy at its root. A return to Aristotle was a response to this novelty. — Fooloso4
You are wasting your time. — Lionino
A well-known truth is not worse for wear. — Leontiskos
There are many in these parts who fall short for being enamored of novelty. — Leontiskos
Perhaps if her piece was entirely about Descartes ... — Leontiskos
Here too there are gods.
(Tusculan Disputations V 10–11).Socrates was the first to call philosophy down from the heavens… and compel it to ask questions about life and morality.
...the key idea shared by the members of the Quartet is to place the concept of life at the centre of philosophical attention. This commitment has at least four dimensions: (i) an interest in the ordinary; (ii) a focus on virtue, goodness and human flourishing; (iii) an affirmation of our animal nature; (iv) recognition of the normative landscape that structures our lives. — Bakhurst, David (2022). Education for metaphysical animals. Journal of Philosophy of Education 56 (6):812–826.