The chapter on Plato in particular, in which he criticizes the customary idea of there being the 'separate realm' of Forms. — Wayfarer

If you are objecting to my use of the term 'realm' both Plato (in translation) and Perl use it. Perl says:

What is given to the senses, then, and hence the entire realm of the sensible ...

(36)

Plato:

... in the realm of reason, relates to reason and whatever is known by reason, so does the sun, in the realm of sight.

(Republic 508b)

As to separate, I agree that it is not another world. Perl points out, and as you note, there is a sense in which they are separate as discussed in the section 'The Meaning of Separation'.

I appreciate Bloom's scholarship while deploring his politics. — J

Me too .

Within allegory, of course we have nothing but images -- as you say, what else could there be? — J

The one who escapes the cave does not only see images. She sees the Forms. But she can't bring the Forms back to the cave for others to see. There is no knowledge of the Forms transmitted from her to others. It is a common mistake to here about the Forms and think that one has thereby gained knowledge.

But this is not an allegory about images; it's a story that uses images to try to explain how knowledge may be attained. — J

The cave is said to be "an image of our nature in its education and want of education". (514a)

If the people were to vote for a candidate, it would have been Sanders. — Christoffer

You do not know that. The approval of Democratic donors is not the same as the approval of "the people".

Banning people who actively lie is a protection of the democracy. — Christoffer

Not unless it is done democratically. How would that work?

it's like when someone is banned off this forum, people would complain that this is anti-democratic — Christoffer

It is anti-democratic! I don't know what the forum would look like if it were democratic, but my guess is that I would prefer it the way it is.

banning people off this forum is there to protect the standards of quality that this forum has. — Christoffer

I agree.

It's the same principle. — Christoffer

It is not the same principle. One is a government regime the other is a forum.

It's not rocket science. — Christoffer

Right, it is not. Rocket science is much less complicated.

Is Sartre worth reading? — Manuel

He would not be on my shortlist. If someone is interested, however, I would recommend Existentialism is a Humanism

In this work he says:

... there are two kinds of existentialists. There are, on the one hand, the Christians, amongst whom I shall name Jaspers and Gabriel Marcel, both professed Catholics; and on the other the existential atheists, amongst whom we must place Heidegger as well as the French existentialists and myself. What they have in common is simply the fact that they believe that existence comes before essence – or, if you will, that we must begin from the subjective.

Without Sanders, she's third, and that's including all the public exposure she's got as a VP. — Christoffer

Donors who gave to Bernie over other Democrats only shows that Democratic donors favored him, not that he had the support of the people.

... a representative democracy should actually work as one and have true representatives ... — Christoffer

But that is not what we have. The question is how to democratically make it a representative democracy? Banning people from the halls of power is anti-democratic.

it seems a strained reading to say that therefore nothing he goes on to teach can be taken as true, or as different from what we see in the city/cave. — J

What aspects of the divided line do you take to be true? Is there a realm of Forms? Are there philosophers who know these Forms? Do you know the Forms themselves? I think there are things to be learned from the divided line, but they may not be the same things that you have learned. One thing that I learned is that we should not mistake what is said about the Forms as knowledge of the Forms. And without such knowledge the ontology remains is an image.

It [the Line] shows that reality extends far beyond anything the practical man ever dreams and that to know it one must use faculties never recognized by the practical man." — J

How does it show this? To assert that there is in not to show that there is.

Here is a quick amusing story about Alan Bloom from Seth Benardete a fellow students of Leo Strauss:

He was heading home after a conference with Stanley Rosen (another friend and student of Strauss) and Allan Bloom in the car. Bloom spotted some deer by the side of the road. They stopped the car. Bloom wanted to get out to see them. He asked: "Do you think they'll attack if I got out and approach them?" And Rosen said: "I don't think they've read Closing of the American Mind".

I think Bloom's translation and notes on the Republic is a good introduction, it was my introduction to Plato, but Benardete and Rosen go much deeper and much further.

... or else give it a reading in which the one who returns brings back only another image. — J

What else could he have brought back? He could not bring back what he saw. At best he could tell them what he saw, but that is an image and not the thing itself.

I think the aporia is often constructed by Socrates himself, as a teaching tool. — J

I agree that he sometimes deliberately confuses his interlocutor, but this does not do away with the problem.

I read back, starting from the discussion about astronomy et al., and I can't find this. Where do you see the forms fitting in here? — J

He is talking about the power of dialectic that:

... leads what is best in the soul upwards to the sight of what is most excellent among things that are ...

(532c)

Namely, the Forms.

And Socrates does not know it either. He knows only how it looks to him.
— Fooloso4

Begging the question, no? It's the very thing we're debating. — J

I don't think that the distinction between the truth as it appears to him and knowledge of the truth itself begs the question. If it were why would he not insist that it is actually so?

The map over donors from the public towards candidates is a pretty clear indicator of what the people want. — Christoffer

Unless I am missing something, if donations are any measure then Harris would have won.

The fear mongering using "socialist" is just the right playing their cards. — Christoffer

I am not sure that is entirely true. It may be that people do not understand Sander's proposals, but a proper understanding of a candidate's position has never been a requirement for voting.

This is why I want to ban anyone from halls of power who's not a true representative of the people and who constantly lies. — Christoffer

So, you are not in favor of democracy.

I'm not really sure what this reply is supposed to mean. Is the claim that Plato doesn't really buy into the psychology and means of self-determination he lays out across several dialogues (not just the Republic, but the chariot of the Phaedrus, the Golden Thread of the Laws, etc.)? — Count Timothy von Icarus

Two things, first, the psychology is far more complex than the clear three part division makes it appear to be. How, for example, does the Symposium's erotic desire of wisdom fit in with this?

move past what merely "appears to be good," (appetitive) or "is said to be good," (spirited/passions) in search of what is "truly good." — Count Timothy von Icarus

Second, it is not simply a matter of psychology but of epistemology. The movement in search of what is 'truly good" is still within the realm of what appears to be.

A charming story but if this were to happen today you might have ended up in trouble with the administration.
When I was in school this was not at all uncommon. What changed?

After the courts found in the 1990s that universities could be financially liable for sexual harassment, many institutions — among them, the University of California and Yale — adopted formal policies forbidding sexual or romantic relationships between faculty and students.

From New York Times:New Harvard Policy Bans Teacher-Student Relations

Bernie had the support of the people, so that's a good hint at what type of Democrat the people actually want. — Christoffer

We really don't know how many people would have voted for him. The label "socialist" still scares a lot of people. I do think, however, that targeting wealth disparity might be a winning message.

I suppose we could view Socrates as trying to block rational thought at these points of aporia, but I'm not sure that's his purpose — J

A bit more on this. The third level of the divided line, if we are working out way up, is dianoia, rational thought. Reason functions by way of ratio, that is, understanding one thing in relation to another. The singularity of the Forms means that they are not accessible to reason. They are grasped at the fourth or highest level directly by noesis, by the mind or intellect, as they are each itself by itself.

But to be fair, in this case Wayfarer asked you about metaphysics and mysticism. — Leontiskos

With regard to mysticism - there is a lot of different stuff called mysticism. If we regard mysticism as the experience of a reality that transcends our everyday reality, that is something I know nothing about. I have never had the experience of such a reality. I don't doubt that others have had an experience that they attribute to a higher reality, but I lack the measure by which to evaluate some of these claims as true and not others.

From a thread on Plato's metaphysics:

Plato’s metaphysics is not systematic. It is problematic. It raises questions it cannot answer and problems that cannot be resolved. It is important to understand that this is a feature not a defect or failure.

Plato’s concern is the Whole. Forms are not the Whole. Knowledge of the Forms is not knowledge of the whole.

In the Philebus, Plato raises the problem of the “indeterminate dyad” . The limited (peras) and unlimited (apieron) is, as Aristotle called it, an indeterminate dyad.

These dyads include:

Limited and Unlimited

Same and Other

One and Many

Rest and Change

Eternity and Time

Good and Bad

Thinking and Being

Being and Non-being

Each side stands both together with and apart from the other. There is not one without the other.

Ultimately, there is neither ‘this or that’ but ‘this and that’. The Whole is not reducible to One. The whole is indeterminate.

And yet we do separate this from that. Thinking and saying are dependent on making such distinctions.

We informally divide things into kinds. Forms are kinds.

Forms are both same and other. Each Form is itself both other than the things of that Form, and other than the other Forms.

The Forms are each said to be one, but the Forms and things of that Form are an indeterminate dyad, one and many.

The indeterminate dyad raises problems for the individuality and separability of Forms. There is no “Same itself” without the “Other itself”, the two Forms are both separable and inseparable.

Socrates likens the Forms to originals or paradigms, and things of the world to images or copies. This raises several problems about the relation between Forms and particulars, the methexis problem. Socrates is well aware of the problem and admits that he cannot give an account of how particulars participate in Forms.

Things are not simply images of Forms. It is not just that the image is distorted or imperfect. Change, multiplicity and the unlimited are not contained in unchanging Forms.

The unity of Forms is subsumed under the Good. But Socrates also says that the Good is not responsible for the bad things. (Republic 379b)

The Whole is by nature both good and bad.

The indeterminate dyad Thinking and Being means that Plato’s ontology is inseparable from his epistemology.

Plato’s ontology must remain radically incomplete, limited to but not constrained by what is thought.

The limits of what can be thought and said are not the limits of Being.

I think the grammatical and spelling mistakes are an indicator of what your thesis does to Fooloso's temperament. — Leontiskos

Wayfarer and I go way back. We often disagree, but not always. I consider him a friend. We have often recommended books and papers to each other. I know his positions well, and he knows mine.

Your comment about temperament seems to be projection. Both Wayfarer and I understand that the nature of philosophy involves dispute, but we also understand that there is a difference between disputes over matters of interpretation and personal attacks.

If the divided line isn't for would-be philosophers, I can't imagine who else it's for. — J

The lowest level of the divided line is not transcended or abandoned. It is our abode, the city, the cave. In the Phaedo Socrates calls Forms hypothesis. In the dialectic of the Republic too the Forms are hypothetical, and remain so unless or until one is able to free themself from hypothesis. In the dialogue Socrates is clear in stating that he has not done so.

In none of the dialogues do we find someone who has attained divine knowledge. Philosophy is, according to the Symposium, the desire for wisdom. They do not possess wisdom. The philosophers of the Republic stand in opposition to the philosophers of the Symposium.

... the idea that we are meant to go through aporia is so enticing. — J

Yes. And her Plato rivals the best of the poets in inflaming Eros. In this case the desire to be wise.

I suppose we could view Socrates as trying to block rational thought at these points of aporia, but I'm not sure that's his purpose — J

It is not that he blocks rational thought but that it has reached its limit.

We could look at specific dialogues for that, but we'd need a new OP. — J

If you do a search of the forum you will see that I started several threads that do just that.

I don't see this as being about the Forms themselves. — J

It is about knowledge of the forms, or lack of such knowledge.

But that there is some such thing to see must be insisted on. — J

He continues:

And should we not also insist that the power of dialectic alone would reveal this, to someone with experience in what we have been describing just now, and that this is not possible in any other way?

To which Glaucon agrees. Why does Glaucon agrees? Certainly not because this is something he knows. And Socrates does not know it either. He knows only how it looks to him. Why does Socrates insist? I think it is because he thinks that holding this opinion is better than the alternatives. It is a moment in the movement of dialectic, that is:

... making the hypotheses not beginnings but really hypotheses - that is, steppingstones and springboards - in order to reach what is free from hypothesis at the beginning of the whole.

They have not reached that point and will not reach it. They are thinking dialectically, via hypothesis.

With that said, we both know Plato well enough to be aware that, like the Bible, you can find support for diametrically opposed positions depending on what you quote! — J

Yes, but the goal is not simply to support a position but to consider different positions in order to find the one that seems best. But we may not always find one that seems best, and so, we leave things open and continue to think.

The scholars who have influenced my work attend to the texts themselves, not to secular culture or metaphysical assumptions. They take seriously Socrates' notion of human wisdom. Not being divine beings they do not presume to know anything about matters of divine wisdom or a reality that transcends reality hear and now in our comfy cave.

but I am thinking in terms of centuries and millennia. It helps prevent one from falling into fads. — Leontiskos

I agree. These scholars are well versed in the centuries and millennia. In fact they often point to the centuries and millennia of commentary in order to see beyond what you refer to as "the common view". I think it telling that you dismiss the work being done as a "fad" without having actually read any of it. Careful reading that does not treat a dialogue as if it is dressed up discourse is not a fad.

The rational part of the soul has proper authority because it can unify the soul, and move past what merely "appears to be good," (appetitive) or "is said to be good," (spirited/passions) in search of what is "truly good." — Count Timothy von Icarus

See my earlier response to J:

In the Republic after Socrates presents the image of the Forms Glaucon wants Socrates to tell them what the Forms themselves are. Socrates responds:

You will no longer be able to follow, dear Glaucon, although there won’t be any lack of eagerness on my part. But you would no longer seeing an image of what we are saying, butthe truth itself, at least as it looks to me. Whether it really is so or not cannot be properly insisted on.(emphasis added)
— 533a — Fooloso4

This is the common view, and the way Fooloso reads Plato looks to be idiosyncratic. — Leontiskos

It is not at all idiosyncratic. There are many highly regarded scholars who support this view. Stanley Rosen and Seth Benardete have led a generation of Plato scholars to part ways with the common views. Anyone paying attention to the scholarship for the last fifty years or more knows that that there have been significant changes in the way Plato has been interpreted. See, for example, Christopher Rowe's Methodologies for Reading Plato for a good overview.

That "flow" from the past towards the future with a nothing that divides the two as the present is very much what he's getting at rather than a continuous series of instants. — Moliere

I don't want to sidetrack the thread, but Descartes claim of life being divided into separate independent moments seems suspect to me, especially given his claim about the mind or soul being indivisible and immortal. I think it has something to do with his defense against accusations of atheism.

Yes. I like that view, it's a spin on one of Aristotle's proofs of God. — frank

But Sartre doesn't like it.

In other words, we aren't using any writings of Descartes as the limit to the discussion. — frank

Sartre references Descartes and the infinitesimal instant. The passage from Descartes is about that. Sartre says:

... the cogito, must not be limited to the infinitesimal instant. Moreover this conclusion could be drawn from the fact that thought is an act which engages the past and shapes it outline by the future. — Being and Nothingness, p 156

In other words, Sartre is saying that thought is not a series of discreet infinitesimal instants. The thinker, the cogito, according to Descartes essentially a thinking thing and not simply a thing that thinks, is then not a series of discreet moments created anew .

I don't think these two are in conflict. If change is inherent to thought, it doesn't matter much if that change produces discreet moments or comes as a stream, does it? — frank

According to Descartes existence occurs in discreet moments. It requires a cause, namely God, to create it moment to moment.

aporia as a possible gateway to something better. — J

Aporia means impasse, the opposite of a gateway.

the Socrates (or Plato) of the Republic — J

A major key to understanding the Republic is the making of images, including the image of a transcendent realm of Forms. Or, in other words, philosophical poiesis.

Here we specifically examine the difference between knowledge and "how it looks to us." — J

In the Republic after Socrates presents the image of the Forms Glaucon wants Socrates to tell them what the Forms themselves are. Socrates responds:

You will no longer be able to follow, dear Glaucon, although there won’t be any lack of eagerness on my part. But you would no longer seeing an image of what we are saying, but the truth itself, at least as it looks to me. Whether it really is so or not cannot be properly insisted on.(emphasis added)
— 533a

I see him advocating a positive doctrine about knowledge that is meant to be independent of what Athenians, or anyone else, think of it. — J

He does advocate a positive doctrine but it is made to persuade the Athenians not would be philosophers.

Most schools have a policy prohibiting a relationship with a student that goes beyond coffee,but it happens. Since it is your teacher who must deal with the consequences of violating the rules it is the teacher who should make the decision.

...the reflective achievement of Descartes, the cogito, must not be limited to the infinitesimal instant. — Being and Nothingness, p 156

In the Third Meditation Descartes says :

For a life-span can be divided into countless parts, each completely independent of the others, so that from my existing at one time it doesn’t follow that I exist at later times, unless some cause keeps me in existence – one might say that it creates me afresh at each moment.

I take it that it is in response to this that Sartre says:

Moreover this conclusion could be drawn from the fact that thought is an act which engages the past and shapes it outline by the future. — Being and Nothingness, p 156

If I am a thinking thing, and if thinking is not something that exists anew from moment to moment but rather extends from the past to the future, then as a thinking thing I do not exist anew from moment to moment and thus do not require some cause to keep me in existence.

I think Socrates and most philosophers since are committed to the idea that there is an ideal convergence point, involving rational inquiry, where we can reach consensus based on what is the case, not simply on "how it looks to us." — J

I don't think the Socratic philosophers agree with this. Certainly it involves rational inquiry, but where do they affirm anything like an ideal convergence point or consensus that is not provisional? Without knowledge I do not see how we can get beyond "how it looks to us." In many cases inquiry ends in aporia.

At least in part because they too chose change. She did not do a good job of articulating how her administration would differ from his. At one point she said she would not have done much differently She later attempted to walk that back.

Trump painted her as a radial progressive. In response she attempted to appear as a moderate maintaining the status quo.

And what you quoted from me was written with Socratic practice in mind. — Srap Tasmaner

But an examination of opinion is not an attempt to find a view from nowhere. It is an attempt to find the opinions that seems best. It is the view from where we are, in our ignorance of transcendent truths. The questions remain open, to be looked at again from another limited point of view.

The view from nowhere is a forgetfulness or disregard for the human. If, however, the unexamined life is not worth living then surely it cannot be a view from nowhere.

I don't really know what happened. — Tom Storm

Neither does anyone else.

perceptions of the economy tanking when it is actually doing ok — Tom Storm

For many the economy is a matter of what they can and cannot afford. For some there is real hardship and financial insecurity. For others it is being able to afford a house or what their parents had. And for still others it is resentment that they can't afford a big house or fancy car or luxury vacation.

Unfortunately Trump will take credit for an improving economy, just as he did last time around.

I don't think payback for liberal elites, transgender issues, and "wokeness" are that important. It is more a matter of what people see and hear in the media than these things having a significant effect on their lives.

embracing an exciting wrecking crew that will dismantle the entrenched old guard. — Tom Storm

Yeah, I agree. What they don't think about is what happens after the destruction. What replaces it.

To what extent was this election driven by a declining faith in established systems and a demand for bold, culture-busting reforms symbolized by Trump? — Tom Storm

I think people are fickle. The Founders were well aware of this and tried to minimize it.

... intensifying polarization and a clash of worldviews? — Tom Storm

It certainly seems as if this is the case, but I think the whole thing might be to a greater or lesser extent exaggerated. People are growing weary of it. The sport of "owning the libs" is getting old and tired. It takes time to adjust to change, and things continue in significant ways. Often acceptance comes with a new generation.

Or... maybe I'm full of shit and we are all fucked.

Whatever the case, grannies cramping themselves into an aneurysm is just sad on multiple levels. — Tzeentch

Tzeentch, you are clueless.

the politicians' trick? — Tzeentch

What trick? Are Trump's choices to head government agencies with incompetent sycophants a politician's trick? Are his threats to gut and eliminate government agencies a politician's trick? Are his threats against the media that does not show proper deference to him a politician's trick? Are his threats of retribution against his political enemies a politician's trick? Are his environmental policies a politician's trick?

If there is a politician's trick that Trump is using it is to say outrageous things that get attention and steer attention away from the real threads.

What pot do you suppose I'm boiling in? — Tzeentch

You don't seem to understand the metaphor. The pot is not yet boiling. At this point it may seem welcomingly warm.

The pot is the USA. It is not about you, its about us.

Said the frog in the water slowly coming to a boil: "Come on in the water is warm".

It is the assumption that I question. I think it has more to do with dissatisfaction with the economy, the way they believe the country is going, and a belief that Trump will fix it; or, that any change will be better than what we have now.

So will the DNC learn this lesson? — 180 Proof

What is the lesson? Not to nominate a woman?

Do you think a man would have won?

.

the political pendulum — frank

What are the forces behind the movement today? Dissatisfaction and the desire for change play a role, but is authoritarianism the only option? Of course one man's authoritarianism is another's New Deal. From that perspective some see MAGA is a correction.

Is the demagogue or a plutocracy or kleptocracy the natural consequence of democracy?

Or is our system robust enough to self-correct?

Right = grassroots media & free speech. — Leontiskos

Free speech?! You are being gaslighted.

America’s right-wing forces would have you believe that they are the courageous entities standing up for free speech.

But, as they try to claim that mantle, many of those same forces in media and politics are behind a disturbing wave of book bans sweeping the nation.
PEN America, a non-profit organization committed to protecting free expression, published an alarming report Tuesday indicating that the “book ban crisis” is only getting worse. The bans are “speeding up,” the organization warned in its report, a troublesome trend that is impacting public school systems from coast-to-coast.

“There were over 4,000 instances of book bans in the first half of this school year—more than all of last school year as a whole. This is a marked increase in comparison to the last spring semester, in which PEN America recorded 1,841 book bans,” the group said in the report, aptly titled “Banned in the USA.”

https://www.cnn.com/2024/04/17/media/right-wing-book-bans-accelerating/index.html

A link to the PEN report.

In public libraries:

Suddenly book bans and other forms of censorship in schools and libraries are ascendant across the country, led by organized groups and politicians. Last year saw a record-breaking 1,269 efforts to censor books and resources nationwide, nearly twice as many as in 2021, according to the American Library Association (ALA). The ALA used to receive 300 to 400 reports a year of efforts to ban books, says Deborah Caldwell-Stone, director of the ALA’s Office for Intellectual Freedom, “but in 2020 we suddenly began receiving a growing number of reports — from one to two a week, if any, to five or six in a single day.”

https://www.gse.harvard.edu/ideas/ed-magazine/23/11/book-bans-and-librarians-who-wont-be-hushed

According to Fox News:

FOX News Channel (FNC) is a 24-hour all-encompassing news service and has been the number one network in basic cable for the last eight years and the most-watched television news channel for more than 22 consecutive years, currently attracting nearly 50% of the cable news viewing audience according to Nielsen Media Research. Notably, Nielsen/MRI Fusion has consistently shown FNC to be the network of choice for more Democrat and Independent viewers, with the most politically diverse audience in cable news. Additionally, a 2023 New York Times/Siena College poll found FNC as the leading single source of news for voters across the country. Owned by Fox Corporation, FNC is available in nearly 70 million homes and dominates the cable news landscape, routinely notching the top 10 programs in the genre.

https://press.foxnews.com/2024/10/fox-news-channel-sees-second-highest-rated-october-in-network-history-during-an-election-year#:~:text=FOX%20News%20Channel%20(FNC)%20is,audience%20according%20to%20Nielsen%20Media

wise and sagacious universities — Fire Ologist

New College of Florida, the small liberal arts college historically ranked among U.S. News and World Report’s top 75 institutions, has fallen 24 places. Now it risks dropping out of the top-100 category entirely.

This double-digit tumble is due in part to Governor Ron DeSantis’ overhaul of the school to transform it into a decidedly right-wing institution—a “Hillsdale of the South,” in reference to the conservative college in Michigan. DeSantis appointed right-wing activists to the board of trustees, replaced the college’s president and other administrators with political allies who have no experience in higher education, and gutted one-third of the faculty along with the diversity and equity department. The board has even relocated students to hotels to accommodate incoming athletes’ use of campus living spaces.

This type of college takeover is a new, more sinister development in a longstanding conservative practice. The right has spent decades creating parallel and competing structures in areas including political news, social media, and even consumer goods. This time, instead of offering students a conservative alternative in higher education, DeSantis and his allies are gutting an existing institution from the inside.

https://time.com/6319108/conservative-universities/

Right = grassroots media & free speech. — Leontiskos

When it comes to the airwaves, this is factually wrong. The truth is just the opposite. Fox News is not and never has been grassroots. It was started by Rupert Murdoch and is controlled by the Murdoch family. Sinclair Broadcasting is the second largest television operator in the US. When tuning in to there local TV station many might think that the news is reported by independent anchors, but they are reading from scripts with a conservative bias prepared centrally by Sinclair that goes out to all of their affiliates nationwide. iHeart Media is the largest owner of radio stations. This conservative group is hardly grassroots growing through mergers and accusations.

When it comes to X this is factually wrong. It is neither grassroots or free speech.

When it comes to podcasts this is factually wrong. Right wing shows dominate. It is not even close.

Relativist, I am sure I am not alone in applauding your efforts to bring truth to light, but NOS is a true Trump believer for whom facts and truth only matter to the extent that they can be used selectively in an attempt to defend him. To this end lies and falsehoods serve him just as well and usually even better. Like Trump he relies on the childish argumentative strategy of "I know you are but what am I?" accusing others of what he is accused of.

Amazing to watching the GOP manufacture issues ... — Mikie

They would not be nearly so successful if not for Fox and more recently the proliferation of podcasts that cynically treat politics as a rule free, fact free competitive sport.

Then if the essence of Christianity is strict adherence to its rules, I suppose any claim to membership requires acceptance of the ressurection. — ENOAH

There is no mention of resurrection in the sermon. There is no mention of resurrection in Mark when the good news is announced. Then again, the term 'Christian' does not appear either.

In the end, I think the strings attached end up twisting and strangling the thing being promoted. But that is admittedly me — ENOAH

Despite the efforts of the Church Fathers and the self-appointed gatekeepers in this thread, there is no single, coherent, agreed upon concept 'Christian' or teaching regarding Christianity. Odd as it may sound, Jesus was not a Christian. There is much in Christianity that I think he would not have approved of. The religion is the invention of Paul for the Gentiles and developed in ways that I think Paul would not have approved of through the influence of paganism.