Comments

  • What the science of morality studies and its relationship to moral philosophy
    Not caring how your words affect me, just got added to you saying I lied. If you want to interact with me you will have to do better. You know, cause and effect. I am not going to play with you if I don't like how you play. Is that an objective moral?AmadeusD
  • Is the Pope to rule America?
    I doubt it. The Abrahamic religions are essentially exclusive and intolerant. It's not possible to reason with those who believe they already know what there is to know because their God has told them so (a felicitous bit of rhyming, if I don't say so myself).Ciceronianus

    Yeap, especially when what knows is God's truth. Christians do not agree with each other about God's truth but that doesn't stop them from believing they know it.
  • Is the Pope to rule America?
    No? Isn't everybody trying to "rule America"? Isn't it becoming commonly accepted that so-called "liberal neutrality" was always farcical? There is a real sense in which progressivism quickened the demise of liberalism, but in this it only quickened the inevitable. Historically and in truth a separation between religion and politics is altogether artificial, and where separation is enforced quasi-religious ideologies sprout like weeds.Leontiskos

    What are quais-religious ideologies?

    I don't think liberal neutrality was farcical. My grandmother never spoke of religion but she regularly attended church. Our relationship with God is a private matter. I love my Grandmother's three rules.

    We respect all people because we are respectful. It doesn't matter if the other is a mayor or a bum.

    We protect the dignity of others.

    We do everything with integrity.

    I think something we are missing is Athen's understanding of the difference between what is public and what is private. I remember when we allowed people far more privacy than we grant them today. I write so much because I am horrified by great increase in government control of our lives. It is very dehumanizing.

    Sparta did not value privacy. Sparta was so self-destructive it could not maintain a population large enough to defend Sparta. The US was the Athens of the modern world and Germany was the Sparta. Now it is the US that in many ways is the Sparta of the modern world. If anyone steps out of line the person is publically shamed and may lose his/her job. We have created a very mean reality for ourselves.
  • Is the Pope to rule America?
    We live in countries where the values, ethics, customs, etc., are based on Christian principles. If we look at the banknotes of the USA, it says: In God We Trust. The currency of a nation rests in a religious sentence. And so more around the Western countries, not just the United States.javi2541997

    Do you know when the US began stamping In God We Trust on money, the root of all evil? I must say I am disappointed in the book "Preparing For War" because so far it has said nothing about what our love of God has to do with war.

    "In God We Trust" (also rendered as "In God we trust") is the official motto of the United States[1][2][3] as well as the motto of the U.S. state of Florida, along with the nation of Nicaragua (Spanish: En Dios confiamos).[4][5] It was adopted by the U.S. Congress in 1956, replacing E pluribus unum ("Out of many, one"), which had been the de facto motto since the initial design of the Great Seal of the United States.[6]

    While the earliest mentions of the phrase can be found in the mid-19th century, the origins of this phrase as a political motto lie in the American Civil War, where Union supporters wanted to emphasize their attachment to God and to boost morale.[7] The capitalized form "IN GOD WE TRUST" first appeared on the two-cent piece in 1864 and initially only appeared on coins, but it gradually became accepted among Americans.[8] Much wider adoption followed in the 1950s. The first postage stamps with the motto appeared in 1954. A law passed in July 1955 by a joint resolution of the 84th Congress (Pub. L.Tooltip Public Law (United States) 84–140) and approved by President Dwight Eisenhower requires that "In God We Trust" appear on all American currency. This law was first implemented on the updated one-dollar silver certificate that entered circulation on October 1, 1957.[8] The 84th Congress later passed legislation (Pub. L.Tooltip Public Law (United States) 84–851), also signed by President Eisenhower on July 30, 1956, declaring the phrase to be the national motto.[8][a] Several states have also mandated or authorized its use in public institutions or schools;[9][10] while Florida, Georgia and Mississippi have incorporated the phrase in some of their state symbols. The motto has also been used in some cases in other countries, most notably on Nicaragua's coins.[11]
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/In_God_We_Trust
    — Wikipedia

    I do not trust the pope nor any man using religion to acquire worldly authority and power. No human being has more of God's authority and power than any other human being and promoting myth and war on money is not admirable.
  • Is the Pope to rule America?
    Your text may be a fairly old one but may signify the role of Rome and Catholicism in ethical and political thinking. I am living in England and wonder to what extent what you are saying comes down to religious fundamentalism in its many forms. The dichotomy of religious beliefs and fundamentalist ideologies may be a strong factor in Amercaj politics and of so many other perspectives. In particular, the dialogue between religious perspectives and thinking may be important, especially where religious, and moral teachings are established.

    I don't live in America, so I wonder about the limits of the questioning in relation to both fundamentalism and Catholicism in.America?.Are you interested in American politics alone or the wider scope of politics on a global level?. Also, to what extent may the relationship between politics and religion be considered, and religious thinking in conservative, or traditional thinking of the social order?.
    Jack Cummins

    :cry: Thank you for taking me seriously and asking thoughtful questions. I cry because my religion is democracy and what is happening today in the US is not compatible with "government of the people, for the people, by the people". When our past president Lincoln said that, he was quoting Pericles of Athens (born c. 495 BCE, Athens—died 429, Athens). Our democracy began with the Greeks long before Jesus and was improved by the Scotts' common sense. Our democracy is about being humans, not the kingdom of God and if any humans are descendants of Paradies it is the people of Hawaii who have a loving culture. People around the world are not all prone to war and violence against each other.

    What is happening is not how I want the world to see us, and I hear how our elitism is causing international tensions to build. Our stories matter and if we believe creation stories or if we believe in science and evolution, it really matters. Fundamentalists seem to be tipping back to religious authority over the people, and I would like Protestants to remember why we held religion and politics separate.
  • Is the Pope to rule America?
    ↪Athena The pope seems to be having difficulty running his own shop, never mind the U.S. But Christian Nationalism is a real and present danger. Its main feature is its irrationality. A complaint I heard yesterday: Palm Sunday was not listed on a bank calendar -- proof that the state is trying to suppress Christianity. Other themes: White people are under threat. Liberals are a threat. The deep state is a threat. Woke is a threat. Law and order are falling apart. Children are disobedient. Story time with drag queens is a threat.

    Really, just about anything / everything. It's difficult to argue with people who are receiving these crazy bat signals. A lot of Nazi dogma was irrational too -- complete nonsense -- but it tied into inchoate prejudices of various kinds. White Christian nationalism likewise taps into discontents that arise from various sources (like the stresses of scientific rationalism on traditional beliefs; increased economic insecurity; social disruption; unwanted social change, etc. etc. etc.) Right-wing propagandists fan the flames of discontent.

    Your 1913 book is a reminder that this kind of conspiratorial thinking is not a new phenomenon in American culture, and it isn't so small and weak that it amounts to only a curiosity. The KKK of the 19th century is gone, but new versions have sprung up: different leaders, different followers, different centers of activity, the same bat-shit kind of thinking.
    BC

    I opened this thread with a lot of fear about being attacked and I am so thankful you got to the heart of why I posted it. Along with the 1913 book about the wonderful Protestants and the terrible Catholics, I am reading a 2023 book, "Preparing For War- The Extremist History of White Christian Nationalism- and What Comes Next" by Bradley Onishi.

    The first argument in the 1913 book is to deny the authority of the Pope and this is done empirically, demanding the evidence. "Two hundred and fifty-five millions of Protestants fail to find in the New Testament a scintilla of evidence that either Jesus meant Peter to be the Pope, or that Peter regarded himself as Pope, or that primacy was conceded to him by the other apostles. ...

    A scientific age like this needs something more than traditions, however venerable, to compel its credence. The colossal assumptions of the Papacy are based upon the statement of Christ to Peter: "Thou art Peter and upon this rock I will build my church and gates of hell shall not prevail against it." Then he goes on to argue the meaning of words and that not only was Peter not made Pope by God by the line of inheritance from Peter through all the Popes was fraudulent. That is a conclusion from researching the records. Like who cares?

    Well, we are talking about how God works and God's authority and that today ministers and their flocks are behaving as though God has chosen Trump to rule over us. How far is this from the false Catholic claims to authority? Is it different from accepting the authority of a Pope? Does God control our earthly affairs and as promised in the Bible does God choose our kings?

    Daniel 2:21
    21 He changes times and seasons;
    he removes kings and sets up kings;
    he gives wisdom to the wise
    and knowledge to those who have understanding;

    Romans 13:1
    Submission to the Authorities
    1 Let every person be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those that exist have been instituted by God.

    Revelation 19:16
    16 On his robe and on his thigh he has a name written, King of kings and Lord of lords.

    Is believing that, empirical? Is believing our new Bible salesman is God's chosen leader of Amercia a good example to the world of how government of the people, by the people, for the people works? Or are we talking about the authority over the people that Protestants once stood against? Really, is this how we want the whole world to be ruled? Would it work for communists and the Chinese if first they all became born-again Christians? If we think deeply about this matter, how do we feel? Does this feel true or is it questionable or OMG horrifying?
  • What the science of morality studies and its relationship to moral philosophy
    based a real climate event of a drought and flooding and return to a climate favorable to farming
    — Athena

    This seems to run quite counter to the science, though.
    AmadeusD

    Excuse me, please question what you do not know. It is precisely because of science and the work of archeologists and geologists that I said the story of creation and a flood appear to be a story of a climate event. The Garden of Eden was most likely in Iran. This is determined by evidence of the four rivers, a very long and harsh drought, and flooding. The Biblical story of creation being a Sumerian story of many gods and goddesses and a river asking a goddess for help it stay in its banks so it would not flood her plants again. The goddess used mud to create a man and woman and she breathed life into them.

    That understanding of the story is also based on knowledge of primitive peoples humanizing the world, sort of like we might name our car or a computer and speak of these things as living entities with personalities. These stories being much easier to remember than plain facts and often carry survival information. If the only human beings you know are the people around you, that leaves a lot information outside of your awareness, and when this lack of knowledge leads to saying I have lied, there is a problem. :brow:

    " the science isn't moral, nor does it inform morals" your inability to grasp the meaning of what I say about moral judgment is a source of frustration for me. Let's see if you can follow this moral reasoning- saying that I lie is offensive and I take that as an invitation to attack. Can you see that cause and effect of having bad manners? If you can't get informed this problem might get worse.
  • What the science of morality studies and its relationship to moral philosophy
    Earth sciences are very important to moral judgments about how we use and dispose of resources.
    — Athena

    No they aren't.
    AmadeusD

    Excuse me, how can a completely ignorant person make moral decisions about how we live on this planet? We have destroyed much of our planet and may have caused the end of life as we know it because of our ignorance. The greatest evil is ignorance.
  • What the science of morality studies and its relationship to moral philosophy
    No it can't. These concepts were invented by humans. Animals have no notions (possibly, at all, but at least) of these things.AmadeusD

    I will ask you to hold your opinion until you have read the book "The Science of Good & Evil- Why People Cheat, Gossip, Care, Share, and FOLLOW THE GOLDEN RULE by Michael Shermaer, or in some way validate the notion that you know what you are talking about when it comes what we share with other social animals. Right now you appear to be as someone who is practicing medicine despite having zero education in that field of knowledge.
  • Education and why we have the modern system
    ↪Athena In the 1980's the tension in Australia was always education understood as a blunt tool to get you a job - well paid or otherwise. Education at some point ditched history and context and became obsessed with vocational outcomes rather than wisdom or preparation for an adult civic life.Tom Storm

    I love discussing things with people who have a different point of view because of living in a different country. How can what is true of US education, also be true for Australia? 1980 is a long distance from 1958 and I am saying the change, of which you speak, began in 1958 with the National Defense Education Act. That change has manifested in all advanced countries for economic reasons. The change is tied to Capitalism and international banking.

    Small third world countries with strong conservative forces that kept them in the past, are trying to do in 5 years what modern countries have done in over 100 years because today money is everything! A nation can not assure its citizens the good life through food abundance, education, medical care, opportunity, etc., without money. In the US it was national defense issues that brought about replacing domestic education with education for technology, but as soon as the new technology began changing our world, everyone had to rush to prepare its citizens for a New World.

    We would do well to have a better understanding of how technology and therefore education for technology are changing the power of governments and countries and individuals. Several books have been written on the subject. The subject can be very depressing or very inspiring if we wonder about the New Age as a time of high tech., peace and the end of tyranny.

    Conservatives step back and give the visionaries room to take action.
  • Education and why we have the modern system
    I kind of agree, but how would you teach 'the good' in a world where there is no agreement on what the good is or if it is anything more than perspectival. Education would seem to be lot easier in a culture where pluralism and diversity don't exist.Tom Storm

    The goal should not be "to teach the good". :scream: Becoming aware of morals and being ethical or virtuous, is about learning logic and principles, and therefore having good moral judgment.

    HOW TO THINK NOT WHAT TO THINK!!!! Liberty is having the individual ability and authority to define the good. If being gay is good for me it is good that is my right. No one has the right to oppose what is right for me, unless somehow what I am doing harms someone. The good is defending liberty and justice for all.
  • Education and why we have the modern system
    My point is education for democracy is essential to having a democracy and that does not come from reading the Bible. The US made a huge mistake when it replaced its "domestic" education with education for technology and left moral training to the Church.
  • Education and why we have the modern system
    That's never stopped any civilization.Vera Mont

    What? :gasp: How about the civilizations that came to an end? War leads to war and if the cause of war is not resolved, civilizations fall.

    Sure, you can buy that...Vera Mont

    Absolutely. Only when leaders can convince the masses they are fighting for a good cause, will the masses be mobilized for war. That does not mean the leaders are telling the truth about the war. Public schools were used to mobilize the US for WWI and WWII. I have the books to validate that and I am willing to quote from them. :nerd: And don't forget the pin up girls and patriotic posters that sold the war.

    It is best when the leaders like Billy Grayham can convince the people that God wants us to send our sons and daughters into a war. Grayham and Eisenhower mobilized the US against Russia, those godless communist people and changed our pledge of allegiance to say "One nation under God" and now we have the White Nationalists to deal with. As our culture wars are demanding our attention, I am wondering if the fall of other civilizations looked like this when they came to their end? Nations that live with a story of the coming last days might bring the end on themselves.

    PS I forgot the children in school. Have you visited inner city schools? I attended schools that became the subject of news reports about teachers suffering battle fatigue. I should say this was not the children's fault but poverty is cruel.
  • What the science of morality studies and its relationship to moral philosophy
    I can't understand how this would be the case. Unless you take "the science of morality" to just be sociology focused on social norms? I would also posit that given the extreme expanses of time that would need to be "number crunched" in regard to their moral outputs, lets say, across history, that this science could never be used.AmadeusD

    I believe a moral is a matter of cause and effect and that science is very important to our moral judgment. The science of good and evil can begin with studying animals. Earth sciences are very important to moral judgments about how we use and dispose of resources.

    I wish we all agreed the Biblical story of creation is a fable and most likely a plagiarized Sumerian story based a real climate event of a drought and flooding and return to a climate favorable to farming. And from there use science to understand creation, our earth and being human.

    The stories we tell ourselves are very important and a failure to include science in our understanding of reality is a serious mistake.
  • Education and why we have the modern system
    Not sure how you can say it is hardly a problem. We fail to agree over the fundamental building blocks of civilization itself, forget the flat Earth or vaccine debates - they are symptoms of a bigger issue, aren't they? In increasingly diverse and polarized societies, if there is no shared mainstream narrative, chaos or internecine tribalism would seem to be a consequence. Is it any wonder that some people are calling for a return to religion or Christian values as a kind of nostalgia project, harking back to a perceived golden era?Tom Storm

    Very wise comment.

    In the US we used literature to teach good moral judgment. That liberal education was replaced with education for technology and we left moral training to the church as Germany did. Today I don't think anyone understands what good moral judgment has to do with liberty and justice, or what the enlightenment has to do with our accomplishments.
  • Education and why we have the modern system
    Is there truly "no agreement?" People seem to agree on a lot of the basics. For example, no one seems to think that being ruled over by instinct, circumstance, and desire, with no rational reflection on one's impulses is a good thing. There seems to be a fairly wide agreement on epistemic virtues as well. The good learner doesn't jump to conclusions and then refuse to relinquish them. They listen to other people and take their words in. They are patient. They desire to know the truth, rather than being wholly motivated by some other end, etc. But if the Good isn't obvious, then the good person needs to be a good learner.Count Timothy von Icarus

    Woo, how does anyone become a good person? Why would anyone just naturally want to be a good listener? Teachers would be ecstatic if students were eager to learn. I think a whole lot of environmental factors are missing in what you have said about good people.
  • Education and why we have the modern system
    A big, hierarchical society can afford to waste a portion of its human resources in order to keep the population under control; it can waive the benefits of each member reaching his or her potential in favour of a few gaining more power and wealth.Vera Mont

    I want to argue your point about being able to waste a portion of our human resources. The idea that we can waste human potentially is totally opposed to the reason for having a democracy. Our wars are about defending democratic principles and everyone's human dignity. I think we are dealing with a little social unrest that may be as explosive as Trump says it is.

    As we prepared for WWI and WWII the defined purpose of education was mobilizing for war and raising patriotism that touched everyone in a great united effort to defend our democratic ideals.

    The US went from a very technologically backward country to a technological leader in a very short time when education for technology was added to education.. Had Industry not realized the need for this focus on technology, the US may have closed its schools. Industry had argued for closing our schools, claiming the war caused a labor and they were not getting their money's worth because they had to train new workers. Teachers argued it was our nation's best who understood our democracy and why it must be defended, who were the first to sign up for military service. They argued if we did not maintain education for the young, when we won the war, we would not be able to replace all those killed in war. Education for technology became part of the US education in 1917.

    However, until the technology of WWII education for citizenship remained our priority. This was changed
    by the National Defense Education Act, and since then the federal government has played a much larger role in education. This increased federal control of education is arguably against the US Constitution. And we have a serious culture war threatening our future. We have had a shift in power and authority. Our liberty is being taken away as we try to rule by government policy controlling every aspect of our lives, law, and authority over the people, instead of educating for good moral judgment and a moral culture in a country that gives everyone equal opportunity to give our nation his/her best. Our experience of life has been radically changed and we have fought every war for nothing.
  • Education and why we have the modern system
    giving them a far broader view of the world and of the scope of knowledge they might wish to pursue later.Vera Mont

    I think the Evanglical Christians are having a hard time with this. I also see problems with tearing up our social rule book and preparing the young for a technological society with unknown values.

    Our cohort makes a difference. In my day, I remember wanting to be accepted by people of color and join their fight for social justice. Today it is thinking "Maybe I want to be a different gender" and taking some serious physically changing steps. I don't think this will turn out well. Our personalities do not stabilize until around age 30 and I think the young need to postpone permanent physical changes. That includes avoiding pregnancy.

    I am reminded of what a fellow in prison told me. "You may think shit tastes bad, but you don't know how bad until you eat it." Rushing into life-changing decisions is not wise.
  • Education and why we have the modern system
    @pursuitofknowlege, I think your question is the most important question that can be asked because at this time, many of us think the US is about to self-destruct. Only when democracy is defended in the classroom is it defended and the US stopped doing that in 1958. We replaced our liberal education with education for technology and left moral training to the Church. Now we are in crisis.

    You mentioned Prussian education and I want everyone to understand that education goes with a bureaucratic organization.

    "Whatever their efficiency, such great organizations are so impersonal that they bear down on the individual lives of the people like a hydraulic press whose action is completely effective in crushing out individual liberty and power." Tagore poet and seerer of India. Sara H. Fahey, a teacher, quoted him at the 1917 National Education Association Conference. We were preparing for the first world war and she used that quote to define our enemy.

    Again as we mobilized for second world war, we used public education to mobilize us for war against Germany. Correct, we did adopt the Prussian model of education when we entered WWI, but very incompletely because our bureaucratic organization and democratic values demanded preparing individuals for a democracy that empowers individuals and prepares them for good moral judgment essential to liberty. Also, we believed it was patriotism that won wars as we had not fully grasped the importance of technology until after WWII and atomic weapons and the ability to deliver them overseas.

    Franklin Roosevelt, in response to the Great Depression, saw the government as the solution to the problem of economic swings and increasing economic inequality even mass homelessness and malnutrition of citizens. With the help of Republican Herbert Hoover, Rosevelt, and Hoover adopted the German bureaucratic model to give us The New Deal. Social Security and all things requiring government control today could not exist so without the change in bureaucratic organization that is what we defended our democracy against.

    "In the past, personal and political liberty depended to a considerable extent upon government inefficiency. The spirit of tyranny was always more than willing; but its organization and material equipment were generally weak. Progressive science and technology have changed all this completely." Aldous Huxley

    We adopted the Prussian model of education much more completely with the passage of the 1958 National Defense Education Act. That was the end of education for democracy, and education for good moral judgment, and we left moral training to the Church. The result is Christian Nationalist and Trump deliving the their message of a blood bath if he and the Christian Nationalist do not win this next election. Hail Hitler We have been on the same path Germany took and now ministers are advancing the Christian Nationalist agenda, while the extreme left is intent on tearing down our social structure as well.

    In the meantime education for technology has eroded past barriers and spread the wealth and power. It is as Zeus feared, with the technology of fire we have learned all other technologies and now we rivel the gods. The right and the left are fighting to see who will rule our new technological society with unknown values.
  • The Great Controversy
    I recall a similar thread from about the same time (or maybe I am confusing it with another website), and the replies were, reasonably, "both".Lionino

    I think it is agreeable that both the leader and the followers manifest success or failure. Recently TV programs have focused on the racial struggle for justice. One program focused on the terrorism committed by Whites to keep those of color in their place. This terrorism successful prevented people of color from fighting for justice, until people from around the country supported the people of color in their efforts to get fair voting laws and justice. One of them publicly announced the error of not supporting the movement for fair voting laws and justice that effectively supported those who imposed the injustices on the people of color. That summer we had civil war and we saw changes but clearly we still live with the problems of racism.

    Some of the most successful actions are taken by song writers and musicians and those who paint pictures and write books.

    Right now the gay community has gained a lot of power within our institutions and I am opposed to this. I will defend the statement if anyone cares.

    Higher wages is also a power shift. I am not sure this is a good thing. I can not understand how people's wages can increase without inflation. However, their power to get higher wages is curious to me. Why hasn't the working class always had this power? Is there a relationship between higher wages racism and power?
  • The Great Controversy
    I hope I edited correctly.
  • The Great Controversy
    At least your avatar is very attractive.
  • The Great Controversy
    We are operating in different dimensions if you do not read the above as Supernatural. I don't think its worthy continuing about Qi if you do not understand its most basic properties and bases for belief in it.AmadeusD

    That is a perfect way to explain my frustration. You do not understand its most basic properties and bases for belief in it and you reject the modern acceptance of Chi.

    Here is a modern explanation of acupuncture https://restorewellness.com.au/2016/05/1387/\\

    Rejection of it as wrong as rejecting today's earth sciences because native Americans explained the earth needs our care. Science has proven them correct. The earth is a large living organization and disrupting one part of it affects another part.

    The explanations have changed but the truth has not. And we don't think of Christians as being superstitious like other natives, but the religion is built on miracles and laying hands on someone to heal a person. These folks are working with Chi but that is not the word they use.
  • The Great Controversy
    I have asked you, if something is unknowable, how could you possibly learn it? It is impossible, was my point. I wondered how you dealt with it. You didn't :PAmadeusD

    Where did I say something is unknowable?
  • The Great Controversy
    This makes absolutely no sense. No one would ever, in their right mind, attempt to debate something incomprehensible. What I am trying to ask is why are you talking about hte possibility of knowing things which are, by your use of hte words, impossible to know? Seems like a pointless starting block to a pointless exercise in mystic thinking (nothing wrong with that, but it's not philosophy imo).AmadeusD

    I would appreciate the quote you are objecting to because, worded as you worded what I said things don't make sense. I am quite sure I have repeatedly said our brains are limited. What we can know is limited by the fact that our brains are limited. You may use your brain to study brain surgery and that will not make you a good mechanic. We can expand the number of people in a pool of shared knowledge and still there is limit to what these people know. What group of people do you think have the most knowledge?

    In 1600, what the most intelligent people on earth could have known, was extremely limited compared to what we know today. In 1600 they did not have the technology that we use for gathering information.
    Also, the more we know the more we can know.

    I don't think I ever said anything was impossible to know. I have spoken of the limits of what we can know, not something that we can not know. With a good microscope, we can know much more about microscopic things we could learn before the microscope. With our satellites traveling the universe we can learn far more today than we could a hundred years ago. Finally, what man on earth can know everything? What group of people can know everything?
  • The Great Controversy
    The entire concept is beyond natural laws. It is posited, as i've noted, that Qi carries multiple supernatural properties and exerts its force, supernaturally, upon the body and mind. I've outlined that, and your quotes don't approach those outlines.AmadeusD

    Can you direct me to that outline of what is supernatural about chi? To me what you said in the above quote, is like saying gravity has supernatural properties. Chi is simply a life force energy. That life force may be mitochondria.

    "We now know that eukaryotes can live happily without any remnant of the mitochondria." Mitochondria are the descendants of bacteria that settled down inside primordial eukaryotic cells, eventually becoming the power plants for their new hosts."
    https://www.science.org/content/article/first-eukaryotes-found-without-normal-cellular-power-supply#:~:text=%22We%20now%20know%20that%20eukaryotes,plants%20for%20their%20new%20hosts.
    My line of reasoning is cause and effect, not supernatural.

    Logos is a Greek concept, along with the notion of a God having 3 aspects, making the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost one god, not 3 gods. Christianity is Hellenized Judaism. The concept of logos is Greek, not Hebrew.
    — Athena

    This doesn't answer either part of my question - but ftr, I am aware. I did not posit it was anything else.
    Athena

    I do not understand why that does not answer your question. You posted.
    Are you speaking about Logos as the Christian notion, or some other concept? In the former light, it seems a little weird to speak about in conjunction with Eastern, supernatural concepts.

    Your question was
    I don't know how these three are related, other than in a bit of esoteric thinking. What's the controlling force of the Universe in your view? Reason?

    Logos, reason, and the controlling force of the universe are 3 aspects of the same thing, the same as Father, Son, and Holy Ghost are three aspects of the same thing. That is Greek thinking and it did not work for Romans until they created new words to convey the Greek idea of a trinity. "Triad is the form of the completion of all things." Nichomachus of Gerasa (c. 100 A.D. Greek neo-Pythagorean philosopher and mathematician.
  • The Great Controversy
    You are right my focus became my own interest. I want to thank you for arguing against chi because that has pushed me to give chi, and energy in general, much more thought than I have given any of this stuff for many years. This feels like a return to youth when life felt much more interesting than it has felt in many years.

    A fellow who uses the hot tub the same time I do, said we can become aware of our chi by cupping our hands as if we are holding a ball. In the past, that was obvious to me as I could feel the energy. Today I tried to feel that energy and it isn't there, which would make sense as I am having some health problems. My next thought is to get an aura reading to determine where my aura is weak and strong. Which falls back on our argument about chi. So now I am considering buying my own imaging equipment and eperimenting with it. Is it all hogwash or can aura imaging be another way to be aware of our chi and where it is flowing in a healthy way or where it is blocked and not flowing?

    Does acupuncture change the aura? How about deep breathing and other health practices? Does music change the aura? If we can see change we can know something has caused the change.

    If nothing else this could make an interesting youtube. Everyone can witness the experiments and give me feedback about what they think. Just hogwash or something to take seriously.
  • The Great Controversy
    Then what is capable of knowing things our minds are not able to know? It seems to me this is a bit backwards - If we can't know it, how can it be knowable?AmadeusD
    Even if you are brain surgeon, there is a lot you do not know. We rely on the experts and what each of them knows is very limited. Our brains are very limited when it comes to knowing a lot. That is a lot is not very much, but if we want we can google for information and maybe we will learn something or maybe not. Sometimes we put a whole team of people onto the task of learning something, like how to get to the moon. Or think historically before there was science. Not even the smartest people could know what we know today.

    I just can't understand why you're invoking 'God' as a gap-filler in your knowledge. It seems to illustrate the very basic misstep almost all religious thinking requires. "I don't know, therefore God". I understand you don't ascribe (from what i can tell) any Abrahamic notion of God, to that issue but you're using it as a proper noun so its hard to ignore :P
    Until you understand how little we can know, it might pointless to argue what is beyond our comprehension.

    The purpose of what?

    The purpose of accepting how very little we know.

    "That notion of God has closed people's minds to anything else.
    — Athena"
    Then what, in your view, is the use of the term? It seems that the Ancients as you're positing, were extremely misguided in their use of the concepts they pretended to. Calling the Sun a personal God is... wild... which is what Apollo is, essentially.

    If you think you know God, you know not God. You wrongly think you know God and this is why we should not name Him or make images of Him. We should stop deluding ourselves with the notion we know God.

    "I do not know enough about physics to answer your question. Somehow there was an energy and that energy became manifest. This is the kind of thinking that goes with understanding the controlling force of the universe...
    — Athena"

    Huh. Fair enough. This appears to be magical thinking to me and is logically followed by "in the beginning there was the word, and the word was made flesh' type of stuff. Not my bag.

    Scientific explanations of the beginning of the universe sound magical to you why? Logos is about empirical knowledge, not magic. You have me very confused. Is there any information that is not magical to you? I think you giving a good demonstration of the problem religion has caused.

    How did those gasses lead to the manifest universe?
    — Athena

    They didn't. They are included in the manifest universe, not prior to it. So, i think this and the next response are a bit out of step with reality, to my mind.
    I did not say those gases existed before the universe was manifested. It was manifested in an order and became increasingly complex.

    What is supernatural about chi?
    — Athena

    The entire concept is beyond natural laws. It is posited, as i've noted, that Qi carries multiple supernatural properties and exerts its force, supernaturally, upon the body and mind. I've outlined that, and your quotes don't approach those outlines.
    You will have to explain those supernatural properties before I can respond to what you are thinking. However this morning in the pool I was pondering why you are so resistant to the notion of Chi. How can you imagine a nervous system that connects the body with the brain and not Chi? What makes it different?

    There is connection with mitochondria and our breath that is also related to chi.
    — Athena

    I cannot see any connection between any of these things in your comments and quotes, so i'll leave that part - I reject the notion still, though. [/qoute] Yes it is obvious you are not getting what I am saying and I am not getting what you are saying.
    What keeps our heart in rhythm?
    — Athena

    Its own electronic impulse - the cardiac conduction system. It is separate from the rest of the body's electric system as far as I know.

    Some people may think that is a spiritual explanation.
    — Athena

    They would be mistaken. Music's ability to 'heal' is squarely psychological, as opposed to medical (though, I agree both are essentially physical issues). It does not have any effect on specific functions of cells or healing properties of the body itself. It is like rest increasing your ability to heal..
    I have to hurry this along as I have to get to work. From my point of view you are not thinking anything through. I wish I had more time. This link is about music affecting the growth of plants. https://www.google.com/search?q=music+effects+the+growth+of+plants&rlz=1C1CHBF_enUS926US926&oq=music+effects+the+growth+of+plants&gs_lcrp=EgZjaHJvbWUyBggAEEUYOTIICAEQABgWGB4yCAgCEAAYFhgeMgoIAxAAGA8YFhgeMggIBBAAGBYYHjINCAUQABiGAxiABBiKBdIBCjExMDE5ajBqMTWoAgCwAgA&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8

    Logos is a Greek concept, along with the notion of a God having 3 aspects, making the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost one god, not 3 gods. Christianity is Hellenized Judaism. The concept of logos is Greek, not Hebrew.
    — Athena

    This doesn't answer either part of my question - but ftr, I am aware. I did not posit it was anything else.

    But I want to defend the good of a man supporting the family financially while the woman supports the family emotionally and socially in many very important ways.
    — Athena

    Agreed. my family works this way. But the idea that your dad actively discouraged you from education is wildly shitty to my mind.

    then post a link that does
    — Athena

    No. That is not what this link does. I does what I outlined immediately before posting it, funnily enough.

    There is evidence that acupuncture may
    — Athena

    Whenever you read this, the fact is there's no evidence. It just hasn't harmed anyone.
    What is the success rate of acupuncture to quit smoking? — Yonsei Med J.
    That was made perfectly clear and the demonstrations of Chi are very real. I think it may be time to quit.
    You can not understand anything if you are unwilling to do the thinking. Denying what is scientifically accepted such as proof of acupuncture brings us to a dead end.
  • The Great Controversy
    Not because I understand these points of view, but because I don't and some good arguments might resolve that problem.
    — Athena

    I would suggest that if you don't understand a point of view, no argument will be truly relevant - but it can be a lot of fun!
    AmadeusD
    Yes, fun! :grin:

    Along with what is chi, what is harmonic resonance, rhythm, and organic balance? Math helps us understand such things, and then we get logos an understanding of cause and effect.
    — Athena

    I don't think these are coherent leaps in discussion. I'm unsure how any of the following three items relate enough to Qi to be relevant

    The object is to understand energy and all 3 words are about energy. If our heart is out of rhythm, we are in deep trouble. Agree? What keeps our heart in rhythm? Damn, asking Google what keeps our heart in rhythm gets links to drugs, not an explanation of how nature works, but here is a related answer...

    Listening to music may boost exercise ability, ease stress and anxiety, and enhance recovery from strokes.Harvard

    Some people may think that is a spiritual explanation. Now the problem is, how do we understand spirit. Does that mean angels and demons, or our mood, we are high-spirited or low-spirited, happy or sad?

    Music can heal and that is about harmony, rhythm, and resonance. Can you now see these things as related to music and healing? My thinking is influenced by Jose Arguelles's explanation of Pulsation-rays explained in his book The Mayan Factor, Path Beyond Technology. That book is totally rejected by the science community and that is understandable, but I think we have something to gain by considering these different expressions of energy.

    Are you speaking about Logos as the Christian notion, or some other concept? In the former light, it seems a little weird to speak about in conjunction with Eastern, supernatural concepts.

    Logos is a Greek concept, along with the notion of a God having 3 aspects, making the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost one god, not 3 gods. Christianity is Hellenized Judaism. The concept of logos is Greek, not Hebrew.

    The only education my father wanted me to have was home economics
    — Athena

    Absolute bollocks, and I'm sorry that was the case.

    I am not totally opposed to women putting family first because so much good can come out of that, but both the man and woman need to agree what is best for the family. I assumed way too much and made a bad choice. But I want to defend the good of a man supporting the family financially while the woman supports the family emotionally and socially in many very important ways. Especially today when we live so long and can do both raise a family and have a career. My plan was to return to college, get a degree, and then have a career but I didn't begin my marriage with a discussion of such things. As I said, I assumed too much.

    Do you want to go there?
    — Athena

    Sure. The quotes don't support your contention. Those quotes shows that the AMA accepts that TMC practictioners merely believe that those things are the case (i.e that Qi exists, acupuncture deals in it, etc..). The claims are all hedged in the language of the claim, and nothing there suggests the AMA thinks Acupucture, or meridians, are legitimate medical practices. Even integrative health doesn't take it.. that.. seriously:
    https://www.nccih.nih.gov/health/acupuncture-what-you-need-to-know#:~:text=There%20is%20evidence%20that%20acupuncture,shown%20to%20improve%20lung%20function.

    I am confused. You say the quotes don't support the benefit of acupuncture and then post a link that does. "In addition to pain conditions, acupuncture has also been studied for at least 50 other health problems. There is evidence that acupuncture may help relieve seasonal allergy symptoms, stress incontinence in women, and nausea and vomiting associated with cancer treatment. It may also help relieve symptoms and improve the quality of life in people with asthma, but it has not been shown to improve lung function."

    I will add this to what your link ....
    What is the success rate of acupuncture to quit smoking?
    According to Ballal et al.,14 performing smoking cessation acupuncture for six weeks produced a smoking cessation rate of 50.1%, 45.5% of the subjects reduced their consumption to 5 cigarettes and 4.3% failed to reduce smoking.
    The Effects of the Acupuncture Treatment for Smoking Cessation in ...
    Yonsei Med J.

    Something is happening and because this is proven insurance now pays for acupuncture treatments.

    Reducing pain can be physically understood as an externality of the practice, unrelated to the spiritual aspect supposed to be inherent in acupuncture (from a TCM perspective). Just as aligning the spine can be nice and very helpful for eg Athletes, it wont cure a disease (the analogy being chiropractic).

    I do not understand why you speak of "the spiritual aspect"? What do you mean by spiritual? Is this in line with believing in angels and demons? There seems to be a gap between my consideration of energy and your consideration of the spiritual realm. Whatever, I have spent half the day reading your post and looking for better explanations and it has been fun. :grin: This is a whole lot better than talking with neighbors about the current gossip. Thank the powers that be for the internet and stimulating discussions.
  • The Great Controversy
    The Tetragrammaton. YHWH. Definitely discussions/disagreements around that particular thing - but it doesn't touch what i'm trying to ask. How could you conceptulise something beyond comprehension? If that's the definition of a God, it's necessarily useless.AmadeusD

    It is fascinating to me how our minds grab onto something and that something becomes essential to our thinking, while millions of other possible thoughts have no effect on us. Long ago I read an old book about logic and I was grabbed by the thought we can never know enough to be totally sure of what we think we know. No matter how strongly we believe our thought is the correct one, we must always hold open the possibility that we could be wrong. For me, that is a God beyond comprehension. There is nothing about a god that makes this so, but it is about the limits of our minds. Our minds are not capable of knowing all that could be known. The purpose is to keep ourselves humble and preferably out of holy wars.

    Absolutely agreed, on the reason for that, though. I think the conceptions of God used throughout religions are necessarily formulaic in that they must meet some image parity, or else be redundant for the above reason.

    I take issue with ideas/definitions of God, because the God of Abraham is so different from any other notion of a god. To me it is pretty obvious, as we name new physics particles, the ancients named new gods when they became aware of a useful concept. Each god represents a limited concept. That far different from one god associated with demons and miracles. When the ancients had many gods, they could argue with each other and develop the consciousness of all things. Where can you go with one god? One god giving people rules leaves our consciousness undeveloped. The God of Abraham thinking annoys me so badly because it makes people so narrow-minded. Even when they do not believe in the reality of that God, the religion is so powerful, that any mention of God is assumed to be a god just like the God of Abraham. That notion of God has closed people's minds to anything else.

    "logos, reason, the controlling force of the universe.
    — Athena"

    I don't know how these three are related, other than in a bit of esoteric thinking. What's the controlling force of the Universe in your view? Reason?

    I do not know enough about physics to answer your question. Somehow there was an energy and that energy became manifest. This is the kind of thinking that goes with understanding the controlling force of the universe...

    What were the first gasses in the universe?
    These were mainly helium and hydrogen, which are still by far the most abundant elements in the universe.

    The early universe | CERN
    — Wikipedia

    How did those gasses lead to the manifest universe? The laws of physics are the controlling force. This law regarding gasses is the reason for gas being as it is.

    What was the first gas law?
    Boyle's Law - Definition, Equation, & Facts with Examples
    Boyle's law is a gas law given by the Anglo-Irish chemist Robert Boyle in 1662. He stated that the pressure exerted by a gas is inversely proportional to the volume occupied by it at a constant mass and temperature.
    — Wikipedia

    All of that is logos, reason, the controlling force of the universe and because our minds can discover the way of logos, we can be as the gods and because we can be as the gods, we can have democracy that is rule by reason, not rule by an absolute god or God chosen authority over the people. This belief system is not compatible with Christianity.

    "Okay, chi is just another word for energy
    — Athena"

    (to the underlined): To my understanding, it is clear that: absolutely not. Qi is conceptualised as a substance which makes up the practical notion of the body in TCM, and functions in supernatural ways. It's understood as a basic, all-defining mechanism of the body which can cause or cure disease, allows for motion, and is the psychologically-motivating life-force in humans. It is definitely not analogous with Western (or even Middle Eastern) concepts of energy. I think it is very misleading to assess it as 'just another word for energy". It is closer to a wide-ranging use of the Western term 'consciousness' with less strict limitations in action.

    :lol: Please let me share my merriment with you. I laughed because your comment tickled me. What is supernatural about chi? Is electricity conscious? How about the energy that moves clouds? What of the energy that makes our hearts beat? Is there consciousness with all forms of energy?

    Here is a statement about chi.

    Electricity is required for your nervous system to send signals throughout your body and to your brain, making it possible for you to move, feel, and think.Irving Yee

    When speaking of energy, it might help to have an understanding of mitochondria. Mitochondria is its own organism and they are essential to our lives.

    These energy slaves are the mitochondria, and there are hundreds or even thousands of them inside every one of your cells (with the exception of red blood cells) and in every other human alive. They still resemble their bacterial origin in appearance, but we can no longer exist without them, nor they without us.Dr Steven Zuryn

    There is connection with mitochondria and our breath that is also related to chi.

    The classic role of mitochondria is oxidative phosphorylation, which generates ATP by utilizing the energy released during the oxidation of the food we eat. ATP is used in turn as the primary energy source for most biochemical and physiological processes, such as growth, movement and homeostasis. We turn over approximately our own body weight in ATP each day, and almost all of this is generated by mitochondria, primarily within muscle, brain, liver, heart and gastrointestinal tract.5 The pre-eminent role of eating is to provide the fuel for mitochondria, and the pre-eminent role of breathing is to provide the oxygen and to remove the carbon dioxide produced during oxidative phosphorylation by mitochondria. Similarly, a major role of the cardiovascular system is to deliver the substrates (glucose, fatty acids, oxygen) and remove the products (carbon dioxide) of mitochondrial activity.Br J Dermatol.

    I am separating your comments so the thoughts aren't so complicated they are useless.
  • Donald Trump (All General Trump Conversations Here)
    **this OP should be merged into the Trump thread**Wayfarer

    It would be unfortunate if no one sees the cultural impact of his education policy. I like the subject of education and culture better than the subject of Trump. It really is not all about him. It is very much about the people who support him. The racism is as serious today as it was the day slave owners justified enslaving people from Africa.

    Never mind, the replies I read have nothing to do with education or culture. It can go in the garbage. I am done with it.
  • The Great Controversy
    The only problem with Dostoevsky is that the characters in his major works are always in the wrong place at the wrong moment.javi2541997

    That doesn't sound like fun. But it is an interesting approach to writing a story. Making the circumstances the protagonist instead of a person. I like that idea very much.
  • The Great Controversy
    Did you know Tolstoi and Dostoyevsky had an entire discussion about whether great men were great or simply people at the right time at the right moment? This resulted in War & Peace and Crime & Punishment.

    I'm a historie totale guy myself (camp Tolstoi).
    Benkei

    No, I did not know that and I do not care. Threads are great in the beginning and then they wander all over the place and die. People stop posting and the thread disappears in the past. Bringing it back from the past does not return it to the vitality it had.

    Threads are fun as long as we are participating. Old threads are already done and those who were interested have lost interest in the thread. What fun is it to add something to an old thread?
  • The Great Controversy
    I understand what you're getting at, but that category is far too broad to have a name. What aspect of 'beyond our comprehension' are you pointing to? Anything beyond our comprehension? Seems a bit of a McGuffin.AmadeusD
    That is perfect. Isn't there an argument for not having a name for the God of Abraham? The word "god" is generic, isn't it? The idea that God is beyond our comprehension is not mine. I think the God of Abraham religions deal with the problem of creating a god in our own image. The problem is a personal god meets our human needs better than a force that is not made in our image.

    [/quote]We must stay awake to learn the logos, the reason why things are as they are and can we change this or not
    — Athena

    Isn't this the entire thrust of philosophical thinking? What's the special occasion in this case? [/quote]

    :up: Absolutely, this is the thrust of philosophical thinking and why I keep mentioning logos, reason, the controlling force of the universe. There are no temples built to logos, but the pagan temples were places of learning. Math was important to our ability to grasp reality in these pagan temples that were destroyed by Christians. Unfortunately, that is not common knowledge.

    I truly, seriously do not think there is anything to support this position.

    Could you please present me with unbiased, peer-reviewed work that shows that 'chi' is real? Having been ensconced in new-age groups and thinking for a decade or more, I did look into Qi very deeply because i 'bought' it at the time. It seems to me there is literally nothing, anywhere at all, that can be trusted to legitimate that concept. Would be very much open to something which shows - without ideological investment - something reasonable about it. While I'm, not able to run the video right now (at work) from what I know of him, Jesse Enkamp is a typical McDojo internet talking head with very little in the way of sensible takes. Have run in to him/his work around Jiu Jitsu many times over the last few years and its routinely been shown as nonsense designed to make money.

    Okay, chi is just another word for energy, and that most certainly is worth arguing about. I think especially in the West ever since Rome and the fall of Athens, we totally fail to have a good concepts of energy. And from here I want to leap into Aztec explanations of energy and Michael S. Schneider's explanation of math. Not because I understand these points of view, but because I don't and some good arguments might resolve that problem.

    Along with what is chi, what is harmonic resonance, rhythm, and organic balance? Math helps us understand such things, and then we get logos an understanding of cause and effect. Do I know what I am talking about? Heck no. I am embarrassingly ignorant but grade schools never opened my mind to such knowledge, and when I got to college, the only education my father wanted me to have was home economics. It was his son who was encouraged to study engineering. But I love Einstien's comment about how important imagination is. I read of these things I do not understand and I get as excited as a child full of wonderment.

    The American Medical Association accepts acupuncture as a legitimate medical practice. Science has proven it is a second path of energy that is expressed in pain.

    Traditional Chinese medicine explains acupuncture as a technique for balancing the flow of energy or life force — known as chi or qi (chee) — believed to flow through pathways (meridians) in your body.Mayoclinic

    What is meridians?

    a circle of constant longitude passing through a given place on the earth's surface and the terrestrial poles.
    "the European Broadcasting Area extends from the Atlantic to the meridian 40°E"
    2.
    (in acupuncture and Chinese medicine) each of a set of pathways in the body along which vital energy is said to flow. There are twelve such pathways associated with specific organs.
    "the slow movements and postures of t'ai chi open up and align the meridians of the body"
    — Oxford languages

    There is a lot to think about. Do you want to go there?
  • The Great Controversy
    deleted it because I didn't mean to post it.
  • The Great Controversy
    It is such a pleasure to converse with you that I regreet not having more time.

    Thanks for giving a pass on my use of the word, God. I think some theoretical thinkers have argued God is beyond our comprehension. The religious rule that Christians love to break but Muslims firmly adhere to, is we are not to make an image of God. We are not to think of a god as a being, like Zeus but obviously, that is what Christians do and by deifying Jesus they have a very personal God that meets a human need to be loved, cared for, and protected.

    How about if we think of god as beyond our comprehension instead of a person with supernatural powers? That might clean up a lot of religious problems. When I say math is the language of God, I am poking at the notion that a personal god spoke with his favorite people and not everyone else. And I also mean we should not be too sure of what we think we know. However, if we can say it with math then we might pay attention and explore what the math tells us. We must stay awake to learn the logos, the reason why things are as they are and can we change this or not.

    For sure Pythagoras's school was a source of discovered knowledge! Professors learn a lot from their students. Keep in mind, mathematically, the question is more important than the solution. With the right question, we open the door to discovery and the answer closes it. You are a pleasure because you make me think about what I think and because you do so without putting me on the defensive, I am free to think about what I think and can change it without feeling ashamed for being wrong before I knew more.

    The best proof of chi is acupuncture. The American Medical Association refused to accept acupuncture because even though they witnessed that it works, a person can have surgery without pain when acupuncture is used, but they did not know why. Remember the question is the most important thing. With the question of why acupuncture works,a second system of pain messages was discovered and with that chi was proven. Here is an explanation of chi.



    Keeping in mind the most important part of thinking is the question, and you want the fun of watching a demonstration of chi here is the link I found https://www.google.com/search?q=demonstration+of+chi+in+martial+arts&rlz=1C1CHBF_enUS926US926&oq=demonstration+of+chi+in+marcial&gs_lcrp=EgZjaHJvbWUqCQgBECEYChigATIGCAAQRRg5MgkIARAhGAoYoAEyCQgCECEYChigAdIBCjIxMDgwajBqMTWoAgCwAgA&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8

    I think I goofed. I looked back and didn't see the post I was talking about so it could been a discussion in a different forum. I will check that forum. Found it. This comedian is worth our attention.
    https://politicalorphanage.libsyn.com/
  • The Great Controversy
    Okay . I don't agree with you but I don't have time to argue this morning. I think math is the language of God and there is not rock evidence of that, so it is more of a poetical notion. I am not sure Pythagorus should get credit for the proof of a triangle, but a math book I once read said Egyptians were well aware of triangles but did not have a concept of a proof making the notion of a triangle universal. I think the difference here is the concrete triangle and the abstract triangle. Which is more real, the many imperfect triangles or the prefect one- Plato.

    In my fuzzy mind is a notion that the drive to find proofs is a sharp contrast with mythological explanations and that this difference is what separate the Athenians from the rest of the world. We see that difference coming up in math and medicine. Not that the rest of the world did not have medicine but their approach to it was different. The Chinese notion of chi has proven very useful but it is not at all like believing our health depends on our fluids.

    The bigger issue being one of how we think and that is important to our understanding of morals as a matter of cause and effect, or a mythological notion of morals. I am good because a god told us this is the way to behave, and how to treat our slaves. Verses, if I don't get this right, things will go wrong. And it is "if I don't get things right, things will go wrong, that is vital to morals and democracy.

    The link you gave us is great. I have listened to his explanations before and I highly respect this ideas.

    Ouch, I am out of time. :cry: but I have to say, the explanation of the importance of education and voting is great.
  • The Great Controversy


    I screwed up and lost a couple of hours of arguments about reason and morality and I really don't have time right now to do all that again. Until we have a argreement on what math has to do with proofs and empirical thinking, continuing may be futile so I don't mind losing all my work and starting over again. Your last argument seems the most important, so I will focus on that. I really look forward to continuing but getting my paperwork done has to be my priority or I won't get paid.

    Did you read the math quotes?
  • The Great Controversy
    By it being entirely separated from Western Thought from about 1100AD. By religious warfare, ironically.
    We stole from Arab scholars, for sure, but that doesn't mean our thought are intertwined systems. We nicked sources and ran away with them. Islam stayed put, and is still there today, for the most part. Developing algebra isn't relevant to what we're discussing here.
    AmadeusD

    Oh, oh I love your statement BUT algebra, or math in general, is relevant to this discussion. Man, I need a better emoticon . See me excitingly jumping up and down and screaming what math has to do with everything I say about democracy and morals.

    Empirical thinking, give me proof. Math is at the foundation of empirical thinking and proofs. This is what separated the Greeks from the rest of the world and replaced the gods with logos, reason, the controlling force of the universe. It is all about math, the whole universe, and everything we do. Just because people don't know, does not mean it is not so.

    Please bear with me and give math some thought. This link to math quotes may help you realize what math has to do with everything we value and its connection with morals being a matter of cause and effect and also the very reason some believed democracy, rule by the people, is possible and even superior to a God-appointed king. https://www.prodigygame.com/main-en/blog/math-quotes/
  • The Great Controversy
    teleogical divine command theory.AmadeusD

    I had to look up "teleological divine command theory". Like I knew that thinking has been behind the more aggressive military behavior of the US. Bill Graham did such a great Christmas about how God wants us to send our sons and daughters to fight in Iraq that I almost enlisted myself and I am strongly opposed to that military action and Christianity. But I didn't know this is a defined theory. Reading a name for it and the explanation still is shocking to me. How horrifying that humans can think a God wants them to fight wars, so they engage in war.

    Come on you are very knowledgeable what do you think of the Greek and Roman gods of war? I love that the men of Athens did not believe Alexander the Great was the son of a god but they said, "If he wants to be a god, let him be a god". Of all the stupid things to believe, in this day and age. Believing it is a god of war we should follow is a bit horrifying isn't it? :scream:

    Okay, and we are back to the great controversy. No man can win a war alone, but if they are charismatic the people are superstitious enough to believe their leader is a god or chosen by God, this leader can lead his people to war and win. It has gotten my attention that men who have been called Great are men of war. Why is that! How can we believe such a person is a god or chosen by God, in this day and age?

    We were anti-imperialistic. That is a real choice and democratic principles are anti-imperialistic. For a long time, I have thought Christianity was the cause of our warring history. Believing we do terrible things because it is our evil nature instead of believing a false belief is the problem, distresses me a lot! What do you think?