Nobody ever said that the desire for the beautiful and the good makes the world go round. Of course, "love" requires an object. Free-floating objectless love is... what? — BC

That is an interesting observation about beauty. However, I think free-floating objectless love is enhanced by beauty. Like when I walk along the river on a sunny day, I can not help but be overwhelmed by a good feeling and feel gratitude for this experience. Beautiful, sacred places stir the feeling that all is well and manifest a feeling of joyfulness. That is not born out of desire but the opposite, appreciation of what is experienced.

"Everyone sees that love is a desire, and we know also that non-lovers desire the beautiful and good. Now in what way is the lover to be distinguished from the non-lover?" — GregW

I do not agree with that statement because I experience love as a given. Walking along the river on a beautiful sunny day can intensify that feeling of love. I feel loved simply because I feel love. I can totally relate to the Christian notion that God is love, even though I think the Biblical explanation of God. Satan and sin are messed up. Believing in a personal God has unpleasant consequences, necessitating deifying Jesus as a personal savior.

I don't know how it is for others, but when I was young, I was much more needy than I am now. I would expect a person's notion of love to change with age.

The conclusion here is that there are gradations of free will, of choice, from particular to absolute, depending on our preferences/values.

Is this a good analysis? — bert1

uh no not necessarily. someone can of course have reasons for choosing something that isn't their preference. — flannel jesus

I will say yes, there are degrees of free will. Some people have a lot of self-awareness and others have none. How much free will we have depends on how self aware we are. Also, the greater the degree of empathy, the greater our reasoning and therefore, our free will. In general the boarder our consciousness is, the greater our reasoning and the greater our reasoning is, the greater our free will.

I chose this because I think it is right, rather than I chose this because I feel a desire for it.

You’re not missing anything. Many consider moral foundations a half-baked theory. — praxis

What does that mean? I just posted Deming's points for making better products and creating a better work environment. It is not half-baked. During the Great Depression, he tried to get Industry in the US to use his model and our autocratic Industry refused his model, so Franklin Roosevelt set out to regulate Industry from the federal government level, increasing the autocracy of our democracy. While Deming's model increases democracy and makes it better. That is also better for families because it is more humane and works to improve everyone and everything.

Because the US rejected his model, he went to Japan after the war and taught his model to the Japaness who than proceeded to out compete us for world markets. Today when people talk about what kind of car to buy, they talk about Toyota and Subreu, not Ford of Crysiller. Our high-tech electronics make Japan great because they are the ones putting out the best products.

Using the Deming model is better for families than the autocratic model. If our schools prepared us for a democracy and our Industry used the democratic model, our Democracy could be great and could manifest the Enlightenment dream of a better life for everyone.

It wasn't about your view of the world. (I'm familiar with your history of good works and civic improvement.) But I did have a problem with
Our cities and towns have a surplus of non-productive human consumers.
— Athena — Vera Mont

But don't you see I am one of them! Don't you get how valuable we become when there are not enough people to do what needs to be done, but when there are more than enough people and they must compete against each other, then is when we feel pushed out and unneeded. Some of us are givers and excellent workers, but we are not intentionally competitive. Because we are not competitive, we are losers, and people look down on us and do not see our value. If others do not see our value, on what can we base a good opinion of ourselves? It is a downward spiral, and it can be next to impossible to get into a positive frame of mind. Life can become overwhelming, and that means being dysfunctional.

Jobs as we knew them are disappearing fast. A living wage for all is an impossibility already; in 15-20 years (always assuming this civilization keeps operating that long), gainful employment will be the norm for only about half the adult population. Very large adjustments must be made in that time to avoid collapse. Adjusting to a realistically envisioned future is not the direction in which I see America heading atm. — Vera Mont

We have agreement. I am horrified, even though Trump says we must have industry, when people speak of jobs, they are talking about a few good-paying jobs that require a college education, not employment for people who are not college minded. If we want everyone working, we must create simple jobs and make the work place a desirable place to be.

Our industry is based on the autocratic model, and that is very bad for our families and democracy and in general, our character. It creates inequality and authority over the people. If we want to make the US great we need Deming's model for Industry. Here are some of the points...

6. Institute Training on the Job: Provide on-the-job training to equip employees with the knowledge and skills they need to improve their work.
7. Institute Leadership: Focus on leadership, which encourages collaboration, understanding, and a coaching approach.
8. Drive Out Fear: Create a work environment where employees feel safe to share ideas and ask questions without fear of retribution.
9. Break Down Barriers Between Staff Areas: Eliminate departmental barriers and encourage cross-functional collaboration.
10. Eliminate Slogans, Exhortations, and Targets for the Workforce: Avoid using slogans and exhortations that can create a hostile environment.
11. Eliminate Numerical Quotas for the Workforce and Numerical Goals for Management: Avoid setting numerical quotas that can lead to poor quality.
12. Remove Barriers That Rob People of Pride of Workmanship: Eliminate barriers that prevent employees from taking pride in their work, such as inadequate tools or a lack of recognition.
13. Institute a Vigorous Program of Education and Self-Improvement: Encourage continuous learning and improvement through education and self-improvement programs.
14. Put Everybody in the Company to Work Accomplishing the Transformation: Make quality improvement everyone's responsibility. https://www.google.com/search?q=14+points+of+deming+in+quality+management&rlz=1C1CHBF_enUS926US926&oq=points+of+Deming+&gs_lcrp=EgZjaHJvbWUqCAgCEAAYFhgeMgYIABBFGDkyCggBEAAYChgWGB4yCAgCEAAYFhgeMggIAxAAGBYYHjINCAQQABiGAxiABBiKBTINCAUQABiGAxiABBiKBTINCAYQABiGAxiABBiKBTIHCAcQABjvBTIHCAgQABjvBTIKCAkQABiABBiiBNIBCjExNDYxajBqMTWoAgiwAgHxBXPu3B_Be_i6&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8

Oh, yes, the homeless people who "made the wrong choices'. They're a burden on society. The landlords who own a hundred thousand rental units as well as their own six or seven luxury residences are pillars of the community. — Vera Mont

Wait a minute-. I am not sure, but I think I see the world very differently from how you think I do. I have
always lived in poverty. I know poverty as a result of capitalism and sexism, and someone has to care for the children, the sick, and the elderly, and we women do that because it is the right thing to do. I have volunteered most of my life because I need to believe I am of value to society. At first, I had a husband who supported the family with money, and soon after the divorce, I qualified for disability. The idea of taking charity and not giving back is shameful to me. I feel fortunate that I have had good volunteer opportunities.

However, that is not how I judge everyone, because much of the time, I was working with people with more severe disabilities. For a while, I had a job preparing young, severely cognitively challenged people for jobs. That was so sad because they were hopeful and worked hard, but there are no jobs for them.

My attitude about accepting charity is from my grandmother's generation, when severely cognitively challenged people would get jobs, because of a community agreeing human dignity is important, and jobs were not so demanding! Roosevelt used government money to provide jobs, not charity. Social Security was based on age, not need, to protect the dignity of older people.

I have to run- and I hope we can continue this discussion. I could be wrong, but when it comes to morals, I think human dignity is a priority! When I stayed at home to raise my children, I thought having a paid job was a wonderful thing, and I looked forward to it. I volunteered and went to college, expecting to have a career. Whatever, I know a lot about poverty and the people living at this level, and also those living in prison. The underbelly of our great society.

Wouldn't a more equitable distribution of wealth be even more effective? And maybe enacting fair laws? — Vera Mont

That is a lovely question. Some members of society contribute more than others. I think that justifies differences in resources. This was not as much of a problem as it is today. Our cities and towns have a surplus of non-productive human consumers. What is fair?

If it stopped at times tables and metric conversion, passages from Hamlet or The Highwayman, I'd have no problem with it, either. It's the loyalty oaths, patriotic platitudes and reverence for the aristocracy (landed, business, military or clerical) that I find offensive. That's what makes political disagreement a moral issue; what puts political parties into the same category as churches. — Vera Mont

Are you saying literacy in the classics is a good thing?

Why do you object to loyalty oaths?

I was not sure what a patriotic platitude is, so I googled that term and got these examples...

Patriotic quotes
"This is your democracy. ...
"Where liberty is, there is my country." – ...
"True patriotism springs from a belief in the dignity of the individual, freedom and equality not only for Americans but for all people on earth." – ...
"Freedom is nothing but a chance to be better." –
More items...•Jun 19, 2024
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/2024/06/19/patriotic-quotes-america-usa/74070993007/

What is the problem with those statements? I think some defining statements are necessary. It might be a good thing if all citizens agreed on these platitudes. Trump appears unaware of them, making me think his followers are also unaware of them. I don't think that is a good thing.

I think some people relate to political parties as they relate to foot ball teams, and that kind of a relationship is not equal to church membership because there is a lack of sense of responsibility. As a citizen and church member there should be a sense of responsibility and that is not so with foot ball.

I don't think anything is just good or bad. As I age, I appreciate the complexity of everything. Something may seem bad, but in relation to everything else, it can be good, or vice versa.

I am not against regimented education. Some things just have to be memorized, and when they are, that frees the mind for more complex thinking. I so wish I could spend more time with you, but I am in a rush to join friends at Cafe 60, and what you said is sooo good, I want to have time to work on a response. One reason my thinking is different is that it comes out of very old books, and I love it when someone engages me is a discussion of education and forces me to think about what I think. You have stirred many thoughts. Thank you

I think modern education has a way of disconnecting people from their intuition, and attempts to replace it with pure reason. Such people are, paradoxically, much easier to manipulate. Because reason has its limits too, and a clever mind can rationalize literally anything - something which the propagandist makes eager use of.

Even though the person themselves is disconnected from their intuition, the propagandist makes it their profession to understand, and often has a much better understanding of what makes their target audience tick than the audience itself. — Tzeentch

Oh yes, education for technology is disconnecting us from intuition. I learned in college that our personal experiences do not matter and our arguments need to be empirical. A large part of Fascism is the power of technology and opposed to the power of the individual. We are not only separated from God, but also ourselves and in our desperate aloneness, we need the crowd. Hail, Hitler is a wonderful feeling of belonging. We disrespect our leaders but love the power of a strong leader.

I love your bottom line and see a connection to feeling separate from God and ourselves. The independent thinker is a stronger person and does not need the approval of the crowd. We thought everyone to be independent thinkers and replace that with "group thinking".

More recent brain research is making us aware of what our emotions have to do with what we think.

The vast majority of political messaging is made to work people's emotions, though. That's not just Trump.

Worse still, with Trump it is very obvious, and thus limited in its effectiveness, whereas the messaging you ought to be really worried about is the stuff that is not obvious, and thus finds its way straight into their recipients' subconscious.

They become societal paradigms that are no longer questioned, no matter how defunct they might be. — Tzeentch

:chin: It is just Trump and the leaders of India and Brazil, and maybe Israel, because Israel is so much about Jewish versus everyone else. Hitler and the Nasi did a lot of surveys in the rural areas to find out what people were most angry about and what they feared most, then they rented large rooms and gave great speeches about how the Nasi party would take care of all these problems. They did this year-round and not just when an election is to happen. Fascism is built on fear and anger.

What other president of the US comes close to Trump in this video?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5NsrwH9I9vE

Your bottom line is perfect. I think we have a problem with that reality because of being overly enthusiastic about what technology can do for us and the denial of our limits. Also, when we turned to education for technology, we left moral training to the Church, and were pretty naive about understanding the importance of culture!

Eisenhower realized the dangers of this turn to technology when he warned us of the Military Industrial Complex, but I don't think he was aware of the importance of a liberal education when he asked Congress to replace our "domestic education" with education for technology. The 1958 National Defense Education Act was a reaction to Sputnik, and it had a 4 year limit. Instead of returning to our domestic education, we continued education for technology and a society with unknown values.

Countries could use psychoanalysis just like individuals may need it, because stuff in the subconscious is causing problems. Every culture has a limited consciousness, with some things being taboo. This subconscious is manifested and is causing problems. This is so obvious today with Trump cramming our history of slavery into our subconscious, making it illegal to talk about this taboo subject. The Whites have always had the power to suppress and control our consciousness. How much of a jump is it from hating people of one shade to hating all colored people, and this is a cornerstone of Fascism.

ago — Vera Mont

I love what you said about education. That is a liberal education, not education for technology. I think some schools are returning to that, but right now, it may be hard to get good books for a grade school liberal education.

Brain research resulting from improved technology for brain research may help turn the tide back to liberal education. Once the brain is better understood and the benefits of education for good citizenship and good moral judgment are understood, I think liberal education will be more appreciated.

It is cost-effective to have education for good citizenship because that is how to prevent crime and keep prison and welfare populations low. And it does so without authoritarian rule above the people. Learning self-government begins with governing ourselves and knowing that obeying the law is how to protect our liberty.

The vast majority of political messaging is made to work people's emotions, though. That's not just Trump.

Worse still, with Trump it is very obvious, and thus limited in its effectiveness, whereas the messaging you ought to be really worried about is the stuff that is not obvious, and thus finds its way straight into their recipients' subconscious.

They become societal paradigms which are no longer questioned, no matter how defunct they might be. — Tzeentch

What you said might radically change for at least two reasons. The reason that is the most fun to think about is how new technology is making it possible for us watch the brain working and apply test to better understand how our brains work.

The second reason is a reaction to what is happening today. Many schools dropped civics and education for the humanities was completely replaced with education for technology. We are seeing the result of that now. For God's sake, we have a President who does not know the Constitution and can not answer questions about Constitutionally protected rights and wrongs. There is a chance voters may not have made this choice if they knew the Constitution and why it is important.

The 1958 National Defense Education Act put the Military and Industry in charge of education decisions.
I am saying this education for the Military, Industrial Complex is what made the US like the Germany that followed Hitler. Okay, Trump has moved for a complete breakdown of this Military Industrial Complex reality. That is both good and bad! I hate doing all the talking so can you or anyone else say why the change is both good and bad?

I know I have overlooked the concern for today's social media. That is serious but if we want change it must begin with education, so I narrowing my reply to public education.

So, what do you think US education is doing right, and what is it doing wrong, and why is this so? What do you believe is the purpose of education? What do you believe should be required subjects?

I think of this sort of knowledge as an 'act of faith', ultimately. To say that we can define human nature seems impossible to me, given that our understanding of what that means is inevitably evolving. — Jeremy Murray

I would say human nature comes from the evolution of our species. We are naked apes (without hair covering us). Anthropology is one path of studying human nature.

Anthropology is the study of humanity, encompassing its biological, cultural, and social aspects, both past and present. It aims to understand the human experience, including our origins, diversity, and social structures across time and geographic regions AI

Right now, we are learning a lot through brain imaging. We can actually see different areas of the brain light up when they are stimulated. This is a far better way of understanding our nature than reading the Bible.

The journal "Brain Imaging and Behavior" has an impact factor of 3.2 (2022). The journal also has a 5-year impact factor of 3.6 (2022). The journal's research focuses on the interface between functional brain imaging and human behavior, publishing research on mechanisms, diagnosis, treatment, and prevention of disorders of higher brain function. AI

I also love comparing religions. We are what we believe we should be, and basically, there is much religious agreement, but the mythology is different. Hinduism and Buddhism have different mythologies compared to Judaism, Islam, and Christianity, which share the same mythology from the perspective of different cultures. Christianity seems to be a combination of many religions that were popular back in the day, with the story of Jesus being familiar in other religions.

History has to be included as an interesting way to study humans, along with sociology. psychology, and related sciences. I think we can be confident in science and the collection of facts to understand humans, and then practice self-government through a democratic republic.

What is the point in laying out moral edicts that are so abstract and impractical when the layman already has a fairly solid intuitive grasp of how to act ethically based off sheer compassion and, for want of a better term, "common sense"? — Dorrian

I am not sure, but are you suggesting we all have compassion and basically the same life experience, manifesting a shared "common sense"?

I am thinking of people who, by their own account, were pretty unpleasant people. One such person believes his radical change into a compassionate and gentle person was a miracle he experienced when he was baptized and became a Christian. He praises God for this miracle.

I forget the experience that another man believes changed his life, but I remember he explained as a fascist, he enjoyed being brutally cruel. The cruelest of the group had the most status within the group. Then one day, he had an experience that totally turned his life around. He now attempts to turn others around.

I don't think we should trust the layman's "common sense". These people can become fascist and agree to do very cruel things to others, such as the KKK and the terrorism it practiced in the persecution of people of color. Nice Christian ladies were very much a part of the persecution of people of color as they united and intentionally spread a culture built on the history of slavery. In Germany, this was expressed in the persecution of Jews and mass murder. We are still dealing with these problems, so your belief in "common sense" may be in error.

In fact I will go out on a limb and say that these things are good for societies - not just for individual people. — EricH

I am not sure. I think we need to consider our human nature and what brings out the best in us and what brings out the worst in us. In the past, we were concerned with human dignity. That is why social security was based on age rather than need. At the time, Roosevelt was hoping older people would give up their jobs to younger ones. Social Security enabled them to stop working on the grounds that they earned their Social Security, and it was not charity.

I see many people on the edges of society, and I am not sure if meeting all their needs without them earning what they get is a good thing? I think we need to have organization for our personal lives and a way of giving back. What do you think?

I'm quite familiar with your point by now. It's a bit late to fix the multitude of Trumpian crimes with a change in education. — Vera Mont

On what facts do you base your argument? Education is scrambling to fix the problem. I am not alone, but unfortunately, I appear to be the only one who knows what wars have to do with changes in education and what the Prussian new military order had to do with increasing bureaucratic power.
In the past, armies provided their provisions, not industrial leaders.

Okay, where are you facts?

What's that to do with the historical inaccuracy of the Huxley quote?
Every society uses state-of-the-art technology to organize its power structure and deal - well or badly - with its population's requirements. This includes all tyrants and despots of past and present. They had available exactly the same tools as did their opposition. — Vera Mont

Unfortunately, not every citizen is well educated. If we studied German history, we would know what the Prussians did to manifest a very powerful bureaucratic power over the masses and the potential problems of this organization. The general public has no understanding of why this bureaucratic order is what we fought against.

This is from the 1917 National Education Association Conference in Portland, Oregon....
"Small wonder that the ideals of these countries clash with ours. With these people nationalism is a delusion by which they have perverted their civilization into a mechanical organization of power that now menaces the truest interests and welfare of mankind." Sara H. Failey, Teacher of English.

Fascism started in Italy and spread to Europe and the US.

"Whatever their efficiency, such great organizations are so impersonal they bear down on the individual lives of the people like a hydraulic press whose action is completely impersonal and therefore effective in crushing out individual liberty and power." Tagore, poet and seer of India.

Please excuse, but we can not carry on this discussion until I see your ID. Perferably, you have the Real ID driver's licence that is required for you to fly even if your flight does not leave the USA. Not really, but I hope I have made a point about what we have turned into. Today our experience of being a US citizen is very different from being a citizen before WWII, when we could freely travel to Canada or Mexico with no ID. Roosevelt and Hoover gave as a more efficient bureaucracy with new powers that were essential to our progress but also, dropping the humanities in our education to focus on education for technology for military and industrial purpose, and the spread of that bureaucratic model to all industry and institutions, means Germany effectively won the war because we are not the democracy we defended in two world wars. We are the repressive, militant order we defended our democracy against.

And won't we be proud when Trump ties his birthday to a Military parade. We will all wear our Trump hats and shirts so everyone knows we follow our great leader and our great military might, and God given ability to rule the earth. Amen

Today is nothing like the past. History might knock us down as it knocked Athens, Rome, the Mayans and the Nazi down.

Sure. This can be said of most Reps and Dems. The problems is that Reps and Dems are not allowed to disagree with their own party and tell them when they are wrong, and find the good in the other side to reach a compromise.

Is eliminating government waste a good thing? Instead of just working against anything Trump does, even though they have done it themselves in the past, why not try to work with the other side to have some input in what is being cut. The Dems have cried wolf so many times when it comes to Trump that no one cares any more about the fear-mongering they propagate, even when he actually does something wrong - like when he recently spoke about ignoring the separation of church and state. The Dems are just as much at fault that Trump is president as Trump is. — Harry Hindu

Might I say the problem is human nature? We are evolved social animals, and as such, we have a strong sense of belonging. Labeling people is divisive. It winds up making membership in this group or that one very important. This truth was the most powerful factor in Nazi Germany. Like our South is doing now, citizens were encouraged to report their family, friends, neighbors to the gestapo. In some Southern states reporting someone for being involved in an abortion is encourage, with zero awareness this is one of the things that made the Nazi so powerful. People lived in fear of being suspect so they were driven to prove they were faithful to the Nazi party. This a truth of all groups, a fear of not belonging, or worse a fear of persecution.

Trump is like Hitler because he understands how to work our emotions to increase his own popularity. When we attract the Republicans or the Democrats, we participate in this divisiveness. We create a show that persuaded others to be one of "us", and possibly do terrible things to one of them. Now the peaceful protest become more and more threatening, as we must prove to our friends we are one of them and we are not afraid but bold, very bold.

What we see here is a troop of chimpanzees. Our need for belonging can lead to heroic behaviors or shockingly evil and destructive behaviors, as people are caught up in the moment, just like a lynching mob. Image being one of them, living in constant fear of persecution or being high on being a valuable member willing to step into the leadership role.

In the past, we were wiser when we designed our Constitution with checks and balances and prepared the young for good citizenship. Our forefathers knew our weaknesses and gave in to them on the slavery issue while also limiting the power of government. If we talked as much about the democracy we inherited and stopped playing into the divisiveness, perhaps our Hitler would be less successful in destroying and more successful in making changes that need to be made.

I think MAGA is in the conventional stage of morality, which is concerned with law and order. I think "law" could be thought of as "consistent authority. It seems to me that MAGA are still waiting for other people (like Trump) to tell them what to do or to fix things, but at least they can see the inconsistency of the left and reject it. — Brendan Golledge

I expected Alan Jacob's book "How to Think" to explain deductive and inductive reasoning, but he explains what experience and emotions have to do with our thinking. If all we know about life is our own experiences, our moral judgment will be extremely limited. If we are lucky enough to travel around the world and experience how others live, our perspective will be very broad, and our moral thinking will be affected by that.

I am not sure, but I think Christians have a more narrow perspective, and many ignore science because they fear it could be the work of Satan, and that is a good excuse for not putting in the effort to understand science. Believing themselves and those who share the same religious beliefs know God and that is the only thing important to know, they are not apt to learn a lot about others. It isn't just what they do not know and do not care to know, but their experience of life and their emotions lead to narrow moral thinking. They intentional avoid those who are not one of them.

For example, years ago, when we still had dial-up, I met Palestinians and an Egyptian in a forum and we became good friends. Those friendships are my emotional reason for defending Palestinians. Those who believe there is a moral justification for what Israel has done to the Palestinians are unlikely to feel friendly with Palestinians. Not knowing the Palestinians nor knowing the history of modern Israel, they will not have an emotional motive to defend them. They are going on what they are told by people who are just like them. MAGA has a thinking problem because they lack the experience and emotions for better thinking.

Trump is a business person. — Harry Hindu

Remember when we said "Mind your own Business". I think right now, a few business folks wish Trump would stay away from plans that are ruining their businesses. Trump is not all wrong, but neither is he all right, and here we come to the morality of our Constitution, shared decision making and limited governing powers, versus the authority of one over all.

When we consider the right or wrong of governing power, we might also consider Christianity and if a God works through one strong person or all of us, and is there a Satan that threatens us? Does God protect churches from tornadoes and other natural disasters, or should we consider the possibility that science is correct about the harm humans are doing to the planet? Morality and science have a relationship.

Star Trek visited the theme of AI controlling humans a few times. The Borg was totally dehumanizing, but not all computer-controlled societies were so totally dehumanized.

Call me delusion. but I think the following things are pretty darn good for people that I have never met:

- having access to quality health care
- knowing that you will always have a roof over your head no matter how poor you are
- knowing that you will never go hungry,
- knowing that you will not be sent to prison for having the wrong religious or political beliefs
- knowing that you will not be sent to prison for having a tattoo
- etc

In fact I will go out on a limb and say that these things are good for societies - not just for individual people. — EricH

Thank you, those are moral considerations and this thread is about such morals. We imagine there is a left and right that have opposing moral values. In the US we have a constitution that is supposed to protect freedom of speech and human rights, but since education dropped the humanities in favor of education for technology, we don't seem to share an understanding of our Constitution and the same morals.

Leaving moral training to the church is a path to fascism, an economic model that has communist qualities but protects private ownership, while the government regulates Industry.

Your Huxley quote is apparently from Brave New World Revisited, published in 1958. He must have known that the past was as full of tyrants as his present - or any present. Tyrants have always managed to organize and supply their regimes. But he didn't know what technological advances were going to take place in the next half century. — Vera Mont

I see you are on the same page as AmadeusD. Human nature has not changed but its organization and technology has changed.

The news today is talking about the US Constitution and whether Trump is violating laws set in the Constitution, as Hitler violated the rules of Germany. This also involves showmanship and psychological manipulation of the masses. And my point is what education has to do with leaving our democracy undefended.

I also want to highlight the change in national economies since WWII that increased our expectations, with a desire to feed and house everyone and ensure everyone has medical care. Never in the history have people expected so much from their governments. Our modern world is a new experience, and we haven't worked out all the problems. Perhaps we should stop feeding and giving medical care to worthless people? Perhaps I should refuse a pacemaker that would extend my life?

This stands. If you didn't grasp it (self-admittedly) why the heck did you bother blathering further? LMAOOOO. — AmadeusD

Why do you insist on being so unpleasant? What changed is not human nature but how it is organized.

[quoted]Yes, governments generally became more powerful following World War II. The war effort led to significant expansion of government authority and spending, particularly in the United States, which emerged as a global superpower. The rise of new international organizations like the United Nations also contributed to the growth of international governance structures.
Here's a more detailed look:
1. Expansion of Government in the United States:
Increased Spending:
The US government substantially increased its spending during the war to finance the military and related activities.
New Agencies and Powers:
New agencies and programs were created to manage the war effort, and some of these agencies and their powers remained in place after the war.
Rise of the Welfare State:
The Social Security Act, passed in 1935, expanded the role of the government in social welfare, and this trend continued after WWII.
Increased Presidential Power:
Presidential power also expanded, as the President took on a larger role in leading the war effort and implementing post-war policies.
2. Rise of Global Superpowers:
United States and Soviet Union:
The US and the Soviet Union emerged as the leading global powers, and both had significant influence on international affairs.
International Organizations:
The creation of the United Nations, according to the National WWII Museum, marked the beginning of a new era of international governance.
3. Economic Growth and its Impact:
Post-War Boom:
.
Many countries experienced significant economic growth in the post-war period, leading to increased government revenues and a larger role for government in managing the economy.
Welfare State Expansion:
.
The economic boom allowed for the expansion of social welfare programs and the increased role of government in providing social security and other benefits.
4. Other Factors:
Rise of the Cold War:
The Cold War between the US and the Soviet Union led to increased military spending and a larger role for government in national security.
Decolonization:
The decline of European colonial empires created new opportunities for governments to take on greater responsibility and influence.
Great Responsibilities and New Global Power | New Orleans
Oct 23, 2020 — World War II transformed the United States from a midlevel global power to the leader of the “free world.” With this r...

The National WWII Museum

World War II and the growth of the U.S. federal government
It has often been claimed that the federal government retained a larger share of resources and authority after World War II becaus...

ScienceDirect.com
Aftermath of World War II - Wikipedia
The aftermath of World War II saw the rise of two global superpowers, the United States (U.S.) and the Soviet Union (USSR).

https://www.google.com/search?q=governments+more+powerful+since+WWII&rlz=1C1CHBF_enUS926US926&oq=governments+more+powerful+since+WWII&gs_lcrp=EgZjaHJvbWUyBggAEEUYOTIHCAEQIRigATIHCAIQIRigATIHCAMQIRigATIHCAQQIRigATIHCAUQIRifBTIHCAYQIRifBTIHCAcQIRifBdIBCjE3NzEzajBqMTWoAgiwAgHxBbi34xXD4MSi8QW4t-MVw-DEog&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8 [/quote]

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All of the names I added result in the exact same claims from their followers. Meaning, "trump and hitler" are not unique, and it has nothing to do with their actual views. EVERYONE gets that from their idols being attacked. Your point is entirely hollow for this reason. It's just spitting in the wind. — AmadeusD

Wow, I can not wrap my head around what you asserted. Before there can be fascism, there has to be experience with Industry and democracy. Hitler and Trump are not just powerful men but they rode political waves and they exercise the same techniques for holding and using power. I don't think this can be said of your list of people.

Maybe more information would help. This is what AI has to say in a Google search

Fascist-leaning groups and ideologies were most visible in the US during the 1920s and 1930s, mirroring the rise of European fascism. These groups, often white supremacist and anti-immigrant, included the Ku Klux Klan and proto-fascist organizations like the Silver Legion. While not as widespread or influential as in Europe, these groups and their ideas influenced American political discourse and contributed to the nation's anxieties during the period.

Franklin Delano Roosevelt (January 30, 1882 – April 12, 1945), also known as FDR, was the 32nd president of the United States, serving from 1933 until his death in 1945.

AI During the Great Depression, fascism gained significant traction as many struggling populations looked for strong, authoritative leadership to restore stability and economic prosperity. Fascist movements often exploited economic hardship and social unrest, scapegoating minorities and promising a return to national greatness. This led to the rise of fascist regimes in countries like Italy and Germany, where they were able to gain power and exert control over the population.

Here is a fun read...

Hoover Excoriates New Deal as Fascism, Demanding A ' ...

The New York Times
https://archive.nytimes.com › library › politics › camp
Hoover Excoriates New Deal as Fascism, Demanding A 'Holy Crusade For Freedom'; Currency Plank Pledges Stabilization. Fear Ex-President Would Picture Another ...

Hoover and Franklin worked together to design Big Government. Programs such as Social Security were not possible without bureaucratic changes, and Hoover was the genius behind the changes.

You might look for information before making another argument.

Harry Hindu;985222"]how can we as individuals be altruistic if we do not focus on maintaining our own health and sanity?[/quote]
:lol: I know that one very well. Like many women in my cohort, we made ourselves extensions of our husband's and children's desires. Unfortunately, that was often, if not always, a bad decision. It sure did not help to turn to a male Mormon for canceling! I know a little about being crazy. :scream:

[quote=

I don't see much of a cultural difference between TOS and TNG. I do see a huge cultural difference between the Federation (everyone is free to live and let live) and the Borg (group-think). — Harry Hindu

I do not know what you mean by TOS and TNG. However, I do know the difference between the Federation and the Borg. Is it possible for you to watch and compare the original Star Trek with the Next Generation? The Next Generation was not the Borg, but there is a glaring difference between Kirk and his crew and Picard and his crew. I am reminded of 1830 and Tocqueville's "Democracy in America, and his explanation of the milder despot we would live under. That would be the Next Generation difference and turn away from the John Wayne role model of masculinity.

I am not into the libertarians. I do not like labels. But if we include Tocqueville in this discussion, I have an uncomfortable feeling that Trump is not all wrong. If we rely on government for everything, it owns us instead of us holding the power and having self-government. Morally, I am not clear about the morality of a nanny state. On the other hand, I am wondering what in hell is Trump doing making economic decisions instead of leaving them up to the business people. That is a whole different thread. Since when did our government become so involved with Industry and economic decisions. With Trump taking this a step further, with all the power being in his hands. :gasp: Tocqueville said Christian democracies would become despots.

Despot- a ruler or other person who holds absolute power, typically one who exercises it cruelly or oppressively. That seems to describe Trump. He came to power through the church and ministers, telling us his strength proves he stands with God. What is the morality this thread is talking about?

Or Huxley, who was talking about a past that didn't happen, not the future of America. — Vera Mont

Please explain.

Much as I respect the Huxleys, that's total bilge. Had he never heard of Caligula or Ivan the Terrible? — Vera Mont

The US did not have the bureaucratic capacity to have something like the Social Security bureaucracy we have today until Roosevelt and Hoover made this possible. Together, they gave us big government with new powers.

Our advances in greater bureaucratic powers did not stop there, but waited until technological developments made the new Real ID card possible. Our present-day military capabilities had to wait for satellites. Today, our modern, high-tech military needs our money more than it needs our sons and daughters. Bush's No Child Left Behind Act uses schools to collect students' data, their names, and addresses. This is not the world of Genghis Khan, Caligula of Ivan the Terrible.

I don't expect communists and fascists to give up their left-right thinking. I do expect intellectually honest and open-minded people that are part of a political party to wake up and realize they've been conned into supporting left and right authoritarian policies for fear of the other side taking away their freedoms. — Harry Hindu

I enjoy agreement. It helps me feel like I am not alone in the struggle to save the democracy we inherited. I am struggling for words to raise consciousness of what the Military Industrial Complex has done to our culture.

How can there be people with good moral judgment if none are educated for that? Education for good moral judgement is not reading the Bible. It may include reading the Bible and every other holy book and the classics, but this isn't just about learning what others have said. It is also how we learn to think things through. We used the Conceptual Thinking Method, and we replaced that with "Group Think" and education for technology. The result is totally different cultures.

Education is like a genie in a bottle. The defined purpose is the wish, and the students are the genie. We changed that wish in 1958, and we are now what we defended our democracy against. We have had education for the Military Industrial Complex since 1958. That is what we defended our democracy against. Compare thinking about how to make the most powerful engine or the tallest building, with thinking about Homer and the Odyssey and the rest of the classics. Education for technology is not about the humanities.

There is an important difference between education for independent thinking or education for "groupthink". If you can, watch and compare the original Star Trek and The Next Generation. That TV series marks the point in time when we had a cultural shift. Captain Kirk was the John Wayne of outer space. Captain Picard is the "groupthink" shift.

Military spending as a percent of GDP is quite low (2.7%), compared to when Ike gave that warning (7%). It's also a much lower percent of the budget. — RogueAI

What is your point?

When I speak of the Military Industrial Complex, I also speak of a change in education that has strong social, economic, and political ramifications. It is a cultural change that comes with major problems, such as a mass prepared to be followers instead of prepared to be leaders who feel responsible. The conservatives are more apt to have a weak sense of responsibility with a high reliance on God. They read their Bible and may ignore science because science may be the word of Satan. :roll: And if the minister tells them Trump is strong because God is with him, they vote for the person they believe stands with God. There is an ugly "us against them" thing going on here. In the past, Jews were the victims, and today, Muslims and immigrants are the victims.

Bottom line for me is education and culture, not how we spend money.

Athena, you missing a patently obvious point, literally bolded for your ease is not my issue. Blather all you want. — AmadeusD

I went back and checked, and you did not make an argument. You gave a list of people, and I see no meaning to that, except the implication that the "us and them" principle is an effective tool for leaders. Protestants with different beliefs fully enjoy the 'us and them' principle. "Oh boy, we are going to heaven and they are not because we know God's truth and they don't. Some use this intention with more intentionality than others. What is your point?

Words and actions are real enough. Anyone who screams at people instead of talking with them, who wants to take away other people's country, who buys foreign prisons for his countrymen, I characterize as as evil and categorize as enemy, regardless of what label he's stuck on himself.
I need to respect you no matter what.
— Athena
I save my respect for those who have not torn up and trampled on my values. — Vera Mont

Some people talk about fairies as though they are as real as butterflies and deer. Does that make fairies and unicorns real? Philosophy covers this but I forget the explanation. Actions, however, deal with reality.

Now, are we to believe all the hateful things a White Supremacist believes to be true of people of color? How is that different from the words of hate flying between the left and right?

When it comes to respect, either we are respectful people or we are not, because what we say and what we do depends on who we are, not the other person. From experience, I know it can be extremely hard to be respectful of some people, and many times I am ashamed of myself for falling below my better judgment. I do not think Trump in the WrestleMania show is behaving like someone I can respect, but if I am disrespectful, I am disrespectful. That is not a good thing. I can not blame others for my bad behavior.

But here is a heart-warming memory. Because I make an effort to be respectful to everyone, several homeless men who lived in my neighborhood thought we were good friends. When they apprcoched me they would be on their best behavior, and when college grants came available, some of them showed me their efforts to get into college. I am not Christian, but surely when we are good to others, we can bring out the best in them. I think that is the work of Jesus and I wish more people engaged in this small consideration of others.

In nazi Germany respect was earned that justified disrespecting and dehumanizing others. Please, not in America. Quakers were important moral national leaders.

Quaker morality is deeply rooted in respect for each individual, viewing everyone as having something of God within them, and valuing their unique worth. This perspective leads to a commitment to equality, peace, and integrity, and guides Quakers in their relationships and interactions with others. AI

What game? In a Venn Diagram, MAGA and Democrat will have a tiny bit of overlap. Maybe. The rest of their beliefs will be night and day with each other. Are you disputing this? Do you think there are MAGA out there who are climate warriors? Democrats who want to "drill-baby-drill"? Democrats who want to round up and deport illegals without due process? Democrats who like Trump and MAGA who can't stand him? Qanon Democrats? Andrew Tate and Tucker Carlson Democrats? — RogueAI

I am not disputing what you say. I am not paying attention to the bull shit. Why do you think MAGA and the illusion of the day is more important than the Military Industrial Complex that is behind what happens? Why does everyone ignore Eisenhower's warning? We are all limited in time and energy, and just don't have the time and energy for today's wars of illusion. It is a divisive distraction.

I do not want to be identified as us or them. :grin: If I must be identified as a member of a group, how about the group that takes Eisenhower's warning seriously and believes the 1958 National Defense Education Act, along with adopting the German model of bureaucracy, turned us into what we defended our democracy against.

I am not a fan of Kennedy, but this message opens me to wanting to know him better.


This explanation of John Kennedy is interesting to me.


By the way, one of my friends who likes Trump is right about the good reasons for Trump's actions. The president is supposed to control the CIA but it has acted independently of the president and lied about this. I will say it again, Trump is not totally wrong and I can believe the CIA killed John Kennedy.

I believe that If Kucinich had won against Bush Jr. the world would be a better place. Kucinich would have focused on grief following 911 and used this time to improve our global relationships. Whereas Bush and the Neocons took us on the Military Industrial Complex path, which has much of the world in a state of war or nearing war. Kucinich's philosophy was for peace. Instead of peace, we have the Neocon tension of world domination through military might.

I guess that is fitting to say in a thread about our morality.

War and bureaucracy can co-exist. In fact, bureaucracy tends to increase before and during warfare.
Monarchs also needed civil servants to keep track of logistics and finances. Social services were left to the church... for what that was worth. — Vera Mont

I will try this again:

In the past, personal and political liberty depended to a considerable extent upon governmental efficiency. Tje spirit of tranny was always more than willing; but its organization and material equipment were generally weak. Progressive science and technology have changed all this completely. Aldous Huxley.

Do we want to believe there is no difference between the past and present bureaucracies? How about this, our new real identity cards are no different from our old ones, and Social Security numbers have nothing to do with war and tracking people in a way that was never done before, except in Germany.
Or do we want to believe the US could not have a Social Security system and other social need bureaucracies without also adopting the German model of bureaucracy?

*They bled the infants: blues on top, reds on the bottom.* Qualifications rarely came into monarch selection. — Vera Mont

Is that equal to how we select people for different jobs? Has the belief system possibly changed, changing the power of those in authority? How are people judged in the past and present?

Slash-and-burn tactics merely deform. — Vera Mont

Remember the explanation of the US system of checks and balances. Our forefathers were very leery about giving anyone too much power and they created a form of government that limits power. However, the Bible is about kings and a God who stands with the king, and in 2025, ministers on TV are telling us Trump is strong because God stands with him. Since leaving moral training to the church, we are living with the old world mentality of a controlling God and kings. I am afraid we are not going to resolve this problem until we realize what education has to do with having a democracy. Bush gave us a war on evil and we internalized the evil. Some think it is the right, and others think it is the left. Form! a democracy or a king? A Military Industrial Complex or a nation we can be proud of?

Here is an opinion of USAID that justifies closing it down.

https://thehill.com/opinion/international/5266753-usaid-macedonia-political-crisis/

I may not believe it has merit, but I saw a public broadcasting program that alarms me. I listened to a man known for his international charity work, and he also commented about the errors of USAID and how things can be done better. I don't think we can be a Military Industrial Complex and be the nation we want.

That's the worst case scenario, yes. (What I utterly fail to grasp is the charismatic leader.) — Vera Mont

You might like the book "Empire of Illusion- The End of Literacy and the Triumph of Spectacle" by Chris Hedges. I never imagined this man would become the president of our country.

If someone identifies as MAGA, you have a very good idea of what they're about: anti-vax, stolen election, climate change denialism, cultish adoration of Trump, xenophobia, etc. Hillary was right about these people being deplorable, but wrong about their numbers- They're all deplorable cult members who cheer Trump's cruelty. Maybe some are "fine people", but I haven't met one yet. — RogueAI

Not true because I am not playing that game. I am not paying attention to the mythology of left and right. Those divisions never held any meaning for me. I have explained why I think these mythologies are preventing us from having better reasoning.

I have friends who are good people and also Trump supporters. I also had Palestinian friends and feel terrible about what Zionists have done to Palestine. There are people of color in my family. When the school was teaching us about our families coming from Europe, I was told to ask my parents what I am. My mother was irate and she said, "You are American, 57 varieties. It goes with being told to look for God in everyone and believing that respecting others is about our character, not about who the other is.

Instead of making up stories about who they are, perhaps we should all pay attention to our own understanding of virtues and character.

A good - that is, well functioning - society does not require compliance and conformity, but rather a consensus on matters of common interest. Belonging to a community does not entail rejection of other communities, unless there is a strong motive to do so, such as conflict over water and territory. Pre-European societies did a lot more trading and intermarrying than fighting. Even if you fight with another tribe, you're not required to hate its members: you can respect an enemy and become trading partners or allies after peace is made. ( see Haudenosaunee Confederacy)
The modern version, both in so-called advanced societies and former European colonies, is a bastardized form of tribalism, brought about by artificial divisions within a larger polity.
In this thread, people are working hard to prove that people can be categorized as one of us or one of them. — Vera Mont

Of what good is that consensus if there isn't a human instinct to conform?

I have the impression that defending the viewpoint of people of color can be a serious social and financial problem in the South. That fact is what we call culture.

I love the Haudenosaunee Confederacy, and they were culturally very different from the Apache and the Hopi. I think the Haudenosaunee Confederacy played a strong role in the manifestation of our present democracy. United but also having sovereignty.

— Athena
I don't see a hard work here. We all categorize people according to how their words and actions compare with our own mind-set, expectations and aspirations. We cannot know millions of people as individuals and judge them each according to their degree of Trumpism or whatever.

About proving if someone is one of us or one of them, DNA testing works well. :lol: I think what is happening here is manifesting myths that justify behaviors. My DNA test will prove if I am a conservative or a liberal. These labels are not facts, like a train coming to a crossing, is a fact. Drop the mythology of us and them and get to the issues that matter. :confused: My words fail me. I am not mentally and linguistically prepared to convey the concepts of peace; however, I am quite sure peace is more likely without the make-believe notions of us and them. We are all in this together. Let us not make a war by creating the notions of us and them. Facts matter, and we need to work together on what the facts are and why they matter. Life is not a football game. At least some of us think being a football fanatic is ridiculous.

I do not need to know you. I need to respect you no matter what. I need to respect you and protect your dignity, and I must do everything with integrity. Ancient Greek morality- to know the law (universal law, logos) and good manners.

In the past, when a king died, that was the end of him.
— Athena
But not of his regime: there was usually a recognized successor to carry on. Otherwise, bloody civil war. That, I'm afraid, is what will happen in the disunited states of America.

:heart: I love your arguing points. I have not wrapped my head around the insanity of having to have a king, except man relied on the Bible for their understanding of reality. How was it determined if someone qualified as a king? Britain was the only euro country to have a ruling queen. While this belief system did lead to wars, it is nothing like the bureaucratic order we have today. I wish everyone read my old public policy and administration textbook. The organization of bureaucracies matters. I say that so people don't think I am talking conspiracy theory.
— Vera Mont

In the past, personal and political liberty depended to a considerable extent upon governmental efficiency. Tje spirit of tranny was always more than willing; but its organization and material equipment were generally weak. Progressive science and technology have changed all this completely.
Aldous Huxley.

Trump is not all wrong in his efforts to disrupt that bureaucratic reality.
— Athena
Yes, he is. He and his henchmen are disrupting exactly those departments that have done the best job. A whole lot of people will suffer for a long time as a result.

I am trying to figure out how to present facts so we are not futilely arguing opinions. In the news today, again and again, people in the know have said reform has been necessary for some time.

How about a question? Do you approve of the Military Industrial Complex established when Eisenhower was in office? Here is the best explanation of Eisenhower's warning I have ever found.



That is not just a MIC concern. Kennedy to scrutinizing the medical industry. If there ever was corruption for the unethical gain of money, it is those profiting from our medical needs and the need for assistance in our later years. I am engaged by the cost of medicine and medical supplies. That is crass capitalism that should not be tolerated by a civilization.

How about the corruption of banking and housing, and the failure to deal with finite reality? What if home buyers had to pay only 4.33% on their loans? How about the practice of banks declaring their assets are much greater than their reality? How about we can argue forever about the left and the right (an emotional concern), but extremely few of us can think about the reality issues that really matter?

Trump is getting rid of all those who do not salute him and march with his agenda.
— Athena
Top brass. Not all the men and women who obey the top brass - or refuse to. My feeling is that armed forces will split along ideological and/or ethical lines (Remember, they swore to uphold the constitution.) Civil War reboot.

How many people have any understanding of the Constitution? I don't know of anyone who listened to defend the Constitution. Our young enlist for adventure or because they were supercharged by emotions when they believed the US was attacked. Tribal us against them thinking.

Some see the military as their best chance to get out of poverty and climb the ladder to the top. Our schools have not prepared our young for democracy and defending the constitution since 1958, when civics and debate teams were dropped from school budgets in favor of classes required by the MIC and therefore funded by the federal government.

Decisions are more apt to depend on personal interest than on ideals. They will follow charismatic leaders like so many followed Hitler.

Most people are tribal to some degree. — Vera Mont

All people are tribal. That is becoming more obvious every day. We are social animals and have a need to belong, and that leads us to conform to the ideals of others so we are accepted, and consequently also define who is not one of us. That was the main focus of the Nazis and today is the main focus of Trumps agenda. Hating those who are not one of us is important to this agenda. Hmm, that could make a good thread. How do we come to grips with being one of us and not one of them? who defines the agendas that separate us?

In this thread, people are working hard to prove that people can be categorized as one of us or one of them.