Trump is a business person. — Harry Hindu

Remember when we said "Mind your own Business". I think right now, a few business folks wish Trump would stay away from plans that are ruining their businesses. Trump is not all wrong, but neither is he all right, and here we come to the morality of our Constitution, shared decision making and limited governing powers, versus the authority of one over all.

When we consider the right or wrong of governing power, we might also consider Christianity and if a God works through one strong person or all of us, and is there a Satan that threatens us? Does God protect churches from tornadoes and other natural disasters, or should we consider the possibility that science is correct about the harm humans are doing to the planet? Morality and science have a relationship.

Star Trek visited the theme of AI controlling humans a few times. The Borg was totally dehumanizing, but not all computer-controlled societies were so totally dehumanized.

Call me delusion. but I think the following things are pretty darn good for people that I have never met:

- having access to quality health care
- knowing that you will always have a roof over your head no matter how poor you are
- knowing that you will never go hungry,
- knowing that you will not be sent to prison for having the wrong religious or political beliefs
- knowing that you will not be sent to prison for having a tattoo
- etc

In fact I will go out on a limb and say that these things are good for societies - not just for individual people. — EricH

Thank you, those are moral considerations and this thread is about such morals. We imagine there is a left and right that have opposing moral values. In the US we have a constitution that is supposed to protect freedom of speech and human rights, but since education dropped the humanities in favor of education for technology, we don't seem to share an understanding of our Constitution and the same morals.

Leaving moral training to the church is a path to fascism, an economic model that has communist qualities but protects private ownership, while the government regulates Industry.

Your Huxley quote is apparently from Brave New World Revisited, published in 1958. He must have known that the past was as full of tyrants as his present - or any present. Tyrants have always managed to organize and supply their regimes. But he didn't know what technological advances were going to take place in the next half century. — Vera Mont

I see you are on the same page as AmadeusD. Human nature has not changed but its organization and technology has changed.

The news today is talking about the US Constitution and whether Trump is violating laws set in the Constitution, as Hitler violated the rules of Germany. This also involves showmanship and psychological manipulation of the masses. And my point is what education has to do with leaving our democracy undefended.

I also want to highlight the change in national economies since WWII that increased our expectations, with a desire to feed and house everyone and ensure everyone has medical care. Never in the history have people expected so much from their governments. Our modern world is a new experience, and we haven't worked out all the problems. Perhaps we should stop feeding and giving medical care to worthless people? Perhaps I should refuse a pacemaker that would extend my life?

This stands. If you didn't grasp it (self-admittedly) why the heck did you bother blathering further? LMAOOOO. — AmadeusD

Why do you insist on being so unpleasant? What changed is not human nature but how it is organized.

[quoted]Yes, governments generally became more powerful following World War II. The war effort led to significant expansion of government authority and spending, particularly in the United States, which emerged as a global superpower. The rise of new international organizations like the United Nations also contributed to the growth of international governance structures.
Here's a more detailed look:
1. Expansion of Government in the United States:
Increased Spending:
The US government substantially increased its spending during the war to finance the military and related activities.
New Agencies and Powers:
New agencies and programs were created to manage the war effort, and some of these agencies and their powers remained in place after the war.
Rise of the Welfare State:
The Social Security Act, passed in 1935, expanded the role of the government in social welfare, and this trend continued after WWII.
Increased Presidential Power:
Presidential power also expanded, as the President took on a larger role in leading the war effort and implementing post-war policies.
2. Rise of Global Superpowers:
United States and Soviet Union:
The US and the Soviet Union emerged as the leading global powers, and both had significant influence on international affairs.
International Organizations:
The creation of the United Nations, according to the National WWII Museum, marked the beginning of a new era of international governance.
3. Economic Growth and its Impact:
Post-War Boom:
.
Many countries experienced significant economic growth in the post-war period, leading to increased government revenues and a larger role for government in managing the economy.
Welfare State Expansion:
.
The economic boom allowed for the expansion of social welfare programs and the increased role of government in providing social security and other benefits.
4. Other Factors:
Rise of the Cold War:
The Cold War between the US and the Soviet Union led to increased military spending and a larger role for government in national security.
Decolonization:
The decline of European colonial empires created new opportunities for governments to take on greater responsibility and influence.
Great Responsibilities and New Global Power | New Orleans
Oct 23, 2020 — World War II transformed the United States from a midlevel global power to the leader of the “free world.” With this r...

The National WWII Museum

World War II and the growth of the U.S. federal government
It has often been claimed that the federal government retained a larger share of resources and authority after World War II becaus...

ScienceDirect.com
Aftermath of World War II - Wikipedia
The aftermath of World War II saw the rise of two global superpowers, the United States (U.S.) and the Soviet Union (USSR).

https://www.google.com/search?q=governments+more+powerful+since+WWII&rlz=1C1CHBF_enUS926US926&oq=governments+more+powerful+since+WWII&gs_lcrp=EgZjaHJvbWUyBggAEEUYOTIHCAEQIRigATIHCAIQIRigATIHCAMQIRigATIHCAQQIRigATIHCAUQIRifBTIHCAYQIRifBTIHCAcQIRifBdIBCjE3NzEzajBqMTWoAgiwAgHxBbi34xXD4MSi8QW4t-MVw-DEog&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8 [/quote]

erased

All of the names I added result in the exact same claims from their followers. Meaning, "trump and hitler" are not unique, and it has nothing to do with their actual views. EVERYONE gets that from their idols being attacked. Your point is entirely hollow for this reason. It's just spitting in the wind. — AmadeusD

Wow, I can not wrap my head around what you asserted. Before there can be fascism, there has to be experience with Industry and democracy. Hitler and Trump are not just powerful men but they rode political waves and they exercise the same techniques for holding and using power. I don't think this can be said of your list of people.

Maybe more information would help. This is what AI has to say in a Google search

Fascist-leaning groups and ideologies were most visible in the US during the 1920s and 1930s, mirroring the rise of European fascism. These groups, often white supremacist and anti-immigrant, included the Ku Klux Klan and proto-fascist organizations like the Silver Legion. While not as widespread or influential as in Europe, these groups and their ideas influenced American political discourse and contributed to the nation's anxieties during the period.

Franklin Delano Roosevelt (January 30, 1882 – April 12, 1945), also known as FDR, was the 32nd president of the United States, serving from 1933 until his death in 1945.

AI During the Great Depression, fascism gained significant traction as many struggling populations looked for strong, authoritative leadership to restore stability and economic prosperity. Fascist movements often exploited economic hardship and social unrest, scapegoating minorities and promising a return to national greatness. This led to the rise of fascist regimes in countries like Italy and Germany, where they were able to gain power and exert control over the population.

Here is a fun read...

Hoover Excoriates New Deal as Fascism, Demanding A ' ...

The New York Times
https://archive.nytimes.com › library › politics › camp
Hoover Excoriates New Deal as Fascism, Demanding A 'Holy Crusade For Freedom'; Currency Plank Pledges Stabilization. Fear Ex-President Would Picture Another ...

Hoover and Franklin worked together to design Big Government. Programs such as Social Security were not possible without bureaucratic changes, and Hoover was the genius behind the changes.

You might look for information before making another argument.

Harry Hindu;985222"]how can we as individuals be altruistic if we do not focus on maintaining our own health and sanity?[/quote]
:lol: I know that one very well. Like many women in my cohort, we made ourselves extensions of our husband's and children's desires. Unfortunately, that was often, if not always, a bad decision. It sure did not help to turn to a male Mormon for canceling! I know a little about being crazy. :scream:

[quote=

I don't see much of a cultural difference between TOS and TNG. I do see a huge cultural difference between the Federation (everyone is free to live and let live) and the Borg (group-think). — Harry Hindu

I do not know what you mean by TOS and TNG. However, I do know the difference between the Federation and the Borg. Is it possible for you to watch and compare the original Star Trek with the Next Generation? The Next Generation was not the Borg, but there is a glaring difference between Kirk and his crew and Picard and his crew. I am reminded of 1830 and Tocqueville's "Democracy in America, and his explanation of the milder despot we would live under. That would be the Next Generation difference and turn away from the John Wayne role model of masculinity.

I am not into the libertarians. I do not like labels. But if we include Tocqueville in this discussion, I have an uncomfortable feeling that Trump is not all wrong. If we rely on government for everything, it owns us instead of us holding the power and having self-government. Morally, I am not clear about the morality of a nanny state. On the other hand, I am wondering what in hell is Trump doing making economic decisions instead of leaving them up to the business people. That is a whole different thread. Since when did our government become so involved with Industry and economic decisions. With Trump taking this a step further, with all the power being in his hands. :gasp: Tocqueville said Christian democracies would become despots.

Despot- a ruler or other person who holds absolute power, typically one who exercises it cruelly or oppressively. That seems to describe Trump. He came to power through the church and ministers, telling us his strength proves he stands with God. What is the morality this thread is talking about?

Or Huxley, who was talking about a past that didn't happen, not the future of America. — Vera Mont

Please explain.

Much as I respect the Huxleys, that's total bilge. Had he never heard of Caligula or Ivan the Terrible? — Vera Mont

The US did not have the bureaucratic capacity to have something like the Social Security bureaucracy we have today until Roosevelt and Hoover made this possible. Together, they gave us big government with new powers.

Our advances in greater bureaucratic powers did not stop there, but waited until technological developments made the new Real ID card possible. Our present-day military capabilities had to wait for satellites. Today, our modern, high-tech military needs our money more than it needs our sons and daughters. Bush's No Child Left Behind Act uses schools to collect students' data, their names, and addresses. This is not the world of Genghis Khan, Caligula of Ivan the Terrible.

I don't expect communists and fascists to give up their left-right thinking. I do expect intellectually honest and open-minded people that are part of a political party to wake up and realize they've been conned into supporting left and right authoritarian policies for fear of the other side taking away their freedoms. — Harry Hindu

I enjoy agreement. It helps me feel like I am not alone in the struggle to save the democracy we inherited. I am struggling for words to raise consciousness of what the Military Industrial Complex has done to our culture.

How can there be people with good moral judgment if none are educated for that? Education for good moral judgement is not reading the Bible. It may include reading the Bible and every other holy book and the classics, but this isn't just about learning what others have said. It is also how we learn to think things through. We used the Conceptual Thinking Method, and we replaced that with "Group Think" and education for technology. The result is totally different cultures.

Education is like a genie in a bottle. The defined purpose is the wish, and the students are the genie. We changed that wish in 1958, and we are now what we defended our democracy against. We have had education for the Military Industrial Complex since 1958. That is what we defended our democracy against. Compare thinking about how to make the most powerful engine or the tallest building, with thinking about Homer and the Odyssey and the rest of the classics. Education for technology is not about the humanities.

There is an important difference between education for independent thinking or education for "groupthink". If you can, watch and compare the original Star Trek and The Next Generation. That TV series marks the point in time when we had a cultural shift. Captain Kirk was the John Wayne of outer space. Captain Picard is the "groupthink" shift.

Military spending as a percent of GDP is quite low (2.7%), compared to when Ike gave that warning (7%). It's also a much lower percent of the budget. — RogueAI

What is your point?

When I speak of the Military Industrial Complex, I also speak of a change in education that has strong social, economic, and political ramifications. It is a cultural change that comes with major problems, such as a mass prepared to be followers instead of prepared to be leaders who feel responsible. The conservatives are more apt to have a weak sense of responsibility with a high reliance on God. They read their Bible and may ignore science because science may be the word of Satan. :roll: And if the minister tells them Trump is strong because God is with him, they vote for the person they believe stands with God. There is an ugly "us against them" thing going on here. In the past, Jews were the victims, and today, Muslims and immigrants are the victims.

Bottom line for me is education and culture, not how we spend money.

Athena, you missing a patently obvious point, literally bolded for your ease is not my issue. Blather all you want. — AmadeusD

I went back and checked, and you did not make an argument. You gave a list of people, and I see no meaning to that, except the implication that the "us and them" principle is an effective tool for leaders. Protestants with different beliefs fully enjoy the 'us and them' principle. "Oh boy, we are going to heaven and they are not because we know God's truth and they don't. Some use this intention with more intentionality than others. What is your point?

Words and actions are real enough. Anyone who screams at people instead of talking with them, who wants to take away other people's country, who buys foreign prisons for his countrymen, I characterize as as evil and categorize as enemy, regardless of what label he's stuck on himself.
I need to respect you no matter what.
— Athena
I save my respect for those who have not torn up and trampled on my values. — Vera Mont

Some people talk about fairies as though they are as real as butterflies and deer. Does that make fairies and unicorns real? Philosophy covers this but I forget the explanation. Actions, however, deal with reality.

Now, are we to believe all the hateful things a White Supremacist believes to be true of people of color? How is that different from the words of hate flying between the left and right?

When it comes to respect, either we are respectful people or we are not, because what we say and what we do depends on who we are, not the other person. From experience, I know it can be extremely hard to be respectful of some people, and many times I am ashamed of myself for falling below my better judgment. I do not think Trump in the WrestleMania show is behaving like someone I can respect, but if I am disrespectful, I am disrespectful. That is not a good thing. I can not blame others for my bad behavior.

But here is a heart-warming memory. Because I make an effort to be respectful to everyone, several homeless men who lived in my neighborhood thought we were good friends. When they apprcoched me they would be on their best behavior, and when college grants came available, some of them showed me their efforts to get into college. I am not Christian, but surely when we are good to others, we can bring out the best in them. I think that is the work of Jesus and I wish more people engaged in this small consideration of others.

In nazi Germany respect was earned that justified disrespecting and dehumanizing others. Please, not in America. Quakers were important moral national leaders.

Quaker morality is deeply rooted in respect for each individual, viewing everyone as having something of God within them, and valuing their unique worth. This perspective leads to a commitment to equality, peace, and integrity, and guides Quakers in their relationships and interactions with others. AI

What game? In a Venn Diagram, MAGA and Democrat will have a tiny bit of overlap. Maybe. The rest of their beliefs will be night and day with each other. Are you disputing this? Do you think there are MAGA out there who are climate warriors? Democrats who want to "drill-baby-drill"? Democrats who want to round up and deport illegals without due process? Democrats who like Trump and MAGA who can't stand him? Qanon Democrats? Andrew Tate and Tucker Carlson Democrats? — RogueAI

I am not disputing what you say. I am not paying attention to the bull shit. Why do you think MAGA and the illusion of the day is more important than the Military Industrial Complex that is behind what happens? Why does everyone ignore Eisenhower's warning? We are all limited in time and energy, and just don't have the time and energy for today's wars of illusion. It is a divisive distraction.

I do not want to be identified as us or them. :grin: If I must be identified as a member of a group, how about the group that takes Eisenhower's warning seriously and believes the 1958 National Defense Education Act, along with adopting the German model of bureaucracy, turned us into what we defended our democracy against.

I am not a fan of Kennedy, but this message opens me to wanting to know him better.


This explanation of John Kennedy is interesting to me.


By the way, one of my friends who likes Trump is right about the good reasons for Trump's actions. The president is supposed to control the CIA but it has acted independently of the president and lied about this. I will say it again, Trump is not totally wrong and I can believe the CIA killed John Kennedy.

I believe that If Kucinich had won against Bush Jr. the world would be a better place. Kucinich would have focused on grief following 911 and used this time to improve our global relationships. Whereas Bush and the Neocons took us on the Military Industrial Complex path, which has much of the world in a state of war or nearing war. Kucinich's philosophy was for peace. Instead of peace, we have the Neocon tension of world domination through military might.

I guess that is fitting to say in a thread about our morality.

War and bureaucracy can co-exist. In fact, bureaucracy tends to increase before and during warfare.
Monarchs also needed civil servants to keep track of logistics and finances. Social services were left to the church... for what that was worth. — Vera Mont

I will try this again:

In the past, personal and political liberty depended to a considerable extent upon governmental efficiency. Tje spirit of tranny was always more than willing; but its organization and material equipment were generally weak. Progressive science and technology have changed all this completely. Aldous Huxley.

Do we want to believe there is no difference between the past and present bureaucracies? How about this, our new real identity cards are no different from our old ones, and Social Security numbers have nothing to do with war and tracking people in a way that was never done before, except in Germany.
Or do we want to believe the US could not have a Social Security system and other social need bureaucracies without also adopting the German model of bureaucracy?

*They bled the infants: blues on top, reds on the bottom.* Qualifications rarely came into monarch selection. — Vera Mont

Is that equal to how we select people for different jobs? Has the belief system possibly changed, changing the power of those in authority? How are people judged in the past and present?

Slash-and-burn tactics merely deform. — Vera Mont

Remember the explanation of the US system of checks and balances. Our forefathers were very leery about giving anyone too much power and they created a form of government that limits power. However, the Bible is about kings and a God who stands with the king, and in 2025, ministers on TV are telling us Trump is strong because God stands with him. Since leaving moral training to the church, we are living with the old world mentality of a controlling God and kings. I am afraid we are not going to resolve this problem until we realize what education has to do with having a democracy. Bush gave us a war on evil and we internalized the evil. Some think it is the right, and others think it is the left. Form! a democracy or a king? A Military Industrial Complex or a nation we can be proud of?

Here is an opinion of USAID that justifies closing it down.

https://thehill.com/opinion/international/5266753-usaid-macedonia-political-crisis/

I may not believe it has merit, but I saw a public broadcasting program that alarms me. I listened to a man known for his international charity work, and he also commented about the errors of USAID and how things can be done better. I don't think we can be a Military Industrial Complex and be the nation we want.

That's the worst case scenario, yes. (What I utterly fail to grasp is the charismatic leader.) — Vera Mont

You might like the book "Empire of Illusion- The End of Literacy and the Triumph of Spectacle" by Chris Hedges. I never imagined this man would become the president of our country.

If someone identifies as MAGA, you have a very good idea of what they're about: anti-vax, stolen election, climate change denialism, cultish adoration of Trump, xenophobia, etc. Hillary was right about these people being deplorable, but wrong about their numbers- They're all deplorable cult members who cheer Trump's cruelty. Maybe some are "fine people", but I haven't met one yet. — RogueAI

Not true because I am not playing that game. I am not paying attention to the mythology of left and right. Those divisions never held any meaning for me. I have explained why I think these mythologies are preventing us from having better reasoning.

I have friends who are good people and also Trump supporters. I also had Palestinian friends and feel terrible about what Zionists have done to Palestine. There are people of color in my family. When the school was teaching us about our families coming from Europe, I was told to ask my parents what I am. My mother was irate and she said, "You are American, 57 varieties. It goes with being told to look for God in everyone and believing that respecting others is about our character, not about who the other is.

Instead of making up stories about who they are, perhaps we should all pay attention to our own understanding of virtues and character.

A good - that is, well functioning - society does not require compliance and conformity, but rather a consensus on matters of common interest. Belonging to a community does not entail rejection of other communities, unless there is a strong motive to do so, such as conflict over water and territory. Pre-European societies did a lot more trading and intermarrying than fighting. Even if you fight with another tribe, you're not required to hate its members: you can respect an enemy and become trading partners or allies after peace is made. ( see Haudenosaunee Confederacy)
The modern version, both in so-called advanced societies and former European colonies, is a bastardized form of tribalism, brought about by artificial divisions within a larger polity.
In this thread, people are working hard to prove that people can be categorized as one of us or one of them. — Vera Mont

Of what good is that consensus if there isn't a human instinct to conform?

I have the impression that defending the viewpoint of people of color can be a serious social and financial problem in the South. That fact is what we call culture.

I love the Haudenosaunee Confederacy, and they were culturally very different from the Apache and the Hopi. I think the Haudenosaunee Confederacy played a strong role in the manifestation of our present democracy. United but also having sovereignty.

— Athena
I don't see a hard work here. We all categorize people according to how their words and actions compare with our own mind-set, expectations and aspirations. We cannot know millions of people as individuals and judge them each according to their degree of Trumpism or whatever.

About proving if someone is one of us or one of them, DNA testing works well. :lol: I think what is happening here is manifesting myths that justify behaviors. My DNA test will prove if I am a conservative or a liberal. These labels are not facts, like a train coming to a crossing, is a fact. Drop the mythology of us and them and get to the issues that matter. :confused: My words fail me. I am not mentally and linguistically prepared to convey the concepts of peace; however, I am quite sure peace is more likely without the make-believe notions of us and them. We are all in this together. Let us not make a war by creating the notions of us and them. Facts matter, and we need to work together on what the facts are and why they matter. Life is not a football game. At least some of us think being a football fanatic is ridiculous.

I do not need to know you. I need to respect you no matter what. I need to respect you and protect your dignity, and I must do everything with integrity. Ancient Greek morality- to know the law (universal law, logos) and good manners.

In the past, when a king died, that was the end of him.
— Athena
But not of his regime: there was usually a recognized successor to carry on. Otherwise, bloody civil war. That, I'm afraid, is what will happen in the disunited states of America.

:heart: I love your arguing points. I have not wrapped my head around the insanity of having to have a king, except man relied on the Bible for their understanding of reality. How was it determined if someone qualified as a king? Britain was the only euro country to have a ruling queen. While this belief system did lead to wars, it is nothing like the bureaucratic order we have today. I wish everyone read my old public policy and administration textbook. The organization of bureaucracies matters. I say that so people don't think I am talking conspiracy theory.
— Vera Mont

In the past, personal and political liberty depended to a considerable extent upon governmental efficiency. Tje spirit of tranny was always more than willing; but its organization and material equipment were generally weak. Progressive science and technology have changed all this completely.
Aldous Huxley.

Trump is not all wrong in his efforts to disrupt that bureaucratic reality.
— Athena
Yes, he is. He and his henchmen are disrupting exactly those departments that have done the best job. A whole lot of people will suffer for a long time as a result.

I am trying to figure out how to present facts so we are not futilely arguing opinions. In the news today, again and again, people in the know have said reform has been necessary for some time.

How about a question? Do you approve of the Military Industrial Complex established when Eisenhower was in office? Here is the best explanation of Eisenhower's warning I have ever found.



That is not just a MIC concern. Kennedy to scrutinizing the medical industry. If there ever was corruption for the unethical gain of money, it is those profiting from our medical needs and the need for assistance in our later years. I am engaged by the cost of medicine and medical supplies. That is crass capitalism that should not be tolerated by a civilization.

How about the corruption of banking and housing, and the failure to deal with finite reality? What if home buyers had to pay only 4.33% on their loans? How about the practice of banks declaring their assets are much greater than their reality? How about we can argue forever about the left and the right (an emotional concern), but extremely few of us can think about the reality issues that really matter?

Trump is getting rid of all those who do not salute him and march with his agenda.
— Athena
Top brass. Not all the men and women who obey the top brass - or refuse to. My feeling is that armed forces will split along ideological and/or ethical lines (Remember, they swore to uphold the constitution.) Civil War reboot.

How many people have any understanding of the Constitution? I don't know of anyone who listened to defend the Constitution. Our young enlist for adventure or because they were supercharged by emotions when they believed the US was attacked. Tribal us against them thinking.

Some see the military as their best chance to get out of poverty and climb the ladder to the top. Our schools have not prepared our young for democracy and defending the constitution since 1958, when civics and debate teams were dropped from school budgets in favor of classes required by the MIC and therefore funded by the federal government.

Decisions are more apt to depend on personal interest than on ideals. They will follow charismatic leaders like so many followed Hitler.

Most people are tribal to some degree. — Vera Mont

All people are tribal. That is becoming more obvious every day. We are social animals and have a need to belong, and that leads us to conform to the ideals of others so we are accepted, and consequently also define who is not one of us. That was the main focus of the Nazis and today is the main focus of Trumps agenda. Hating those who are not one of us is important to this agenda. Hmm, that could make a good thread. How do we come to grips with being one of us and not one of them? who defines the agendas that separate us?

In this thread, people are working hard to prove that people can be categorized as one of us or one of them.

Labels is what the left is all about — Harry Hindu

Oh crap. I am sorry, but I have lost patience.

On the light side, after one of my letters to the editor was published, I was invited to join a group of mostly men who had lunch together while someone presented an issue of interest, and everyone discussed it. That was before the internet, and I was intellectually. starving, so I was thrilled to join. :lol:
These guys had served in WWII and they were sexist, Christian conservatives. Originally, they called their club the John Birch Society.

Wikipedia
https://en.wikipedia.org › wiki › John_Birch_Society
The John Birch Society (JBS) is an American right-wing political advocacy group. Founded in 1958, it is anti-communist, supports social conservatism, ...

When I joined, they called themselves the Cicero Society, and they eventually included their wives in the meetings. To my horror, their wives were like little dependent girls. My point is, it took me a while to understand I was not one of them! :lol: OMG I was not one of them. Neither was the Jew who had been a long-standing member, and that means I was not the only one with a different point of view. The dear man who read my letter to the editor assumed I was conservative.

Frankly, this lift-right thing baffles me. I so much wish people would give up their imagined left-right thinking. I most certainly am not a conservative, but have old-fashioned values regarding what democracy is and what our civic responsibilities are, based on the philosophy of pagans. Stop creating a false notion of reality by labeling people. Talk about the issues. Not the football teams.

Satan is a reality because people make that so. :brow: When we make up boogie men, we are not dealing with the reality and developing a consensus.

yes. I wonder which way the armed forces will choose when (not if) it comes to the point. — Vera Mont

Here is the worst problem! Trump is getting rid of all those who do not salute him and march with his agenda. In the past, when a king died, that was the end of him. Modern bureaucracy does not die with the leader. Trump is not all wrong in his efforts to disrupt that bureaucratic reality. But by replacing the old regime with his regime, he may not be giving us a better reality, and his control of military men in controlling positions is a threat to the democracy we inherited, especially because we stopped defending that democracy in the classroom.

It's funny watching the Rep and Dem trying to interrupt Stewart to get their talking points in. They aren't interested in discussion. They are only interested in being "part of their [party's] strategies", as Stewart put it. The part that is "hurting America" as Stewart put it is the inability to see the person on the other side as a person and trying to understand where they are coming from and why they believe what they do. Only then will you be able to find common ground and compromise. — Harry Hindu

That is a culture change following the change in education. We changed how we teach young minds to work. They are no longer prepared for good reasoning.

Does anyone else object to the monetary changes in college football? The media is very much part of this problem, making a big deal out of ball games and totally ignoring high school and college debates. Indeed, today, high schools have ball games but not debate teams.

Democracy has nothing to do with football, but debating is essential to democracy. I want a Statue of Liberty put in schools to remind us of what debating and good reasoning have to do with our liberty and justice. Football is a substitute for war. Winners and losers. You are wrong and I am right. Dominate or serve. God of Abraham religions are divisive, not inclusive. This is a cultural problem.

Which is why the Trump miministration is in such a hurry to abolish science, education and free speech. Their aim is to reduce citizens to abjectly cowering serfs, fighting one another for crumbs off their oppressors' table. — Vera Mont

Trump is a good Christian. :grin: We should all live by faith and stop attempting to reason. Leave everything up to God and Trump. All we need do is obey.

The number 17 doesn't seem to be a matter of cause & effect. It's just a member of the set of integers. You might say it is but an abstraction, but I think it is far more fundamental than that. — noAxioms

Number 17 is not matter. Therefore, number 17 or the word "blue" can not be caused nor effect anything.

I would like to gracefully withdraw from this thread. I do not understand what anyone is saying.

Which is why the Trump miministration is in such a hurry to abolish science, education and free speech. Their aim is to reduce citizens to abjectly cowering serfs, fighting one another for crumbs off their oppressors' table. — Vera Mont

Okay, but this shift does not begin with him, and we can not resolve the problem without a better understanding of it. Eisenhower warned us of the Military Industrial Complex and we need to be aware of it and the changes in education that led us to electing our own Hitler. And preachers are telling us Trump is so strong because God stands by Trump. This is the Germany that followed Hitler because we adopted the German models of bureaucracy and education. We internalized our enemy to have the strongest military force on earth.

My senses can deceive me, so if I cannot trust my senses, I might as well conclude that outside reality doesn't exist; It's just me and you; but if my senses cannot be always trusted then your existence must also might be an illusion. — A Realist

Buddhism addresses this problem. Meditation can bring us to a higher level of consciousness and diminish our ego's grip on us. Lacking self-awareness and being driven by ego can be a hellish delusion.

I think MAGA is in the conventional stage of morality, which is concerned with law and order. I think "law" could be thought of as "consistent authority. It seems to me that MAGA are still waiting for other people (like Trump) to tell them what to do or to fix things, but at least they can see the inconsistency of the left and reject it. — Brendan Golledge

Democracy is rule by reason, not authority over the people. Not grabbing power like Trump is attempting to do. If that is not understood, we have fought every war for nothing.

Rule by law begins with reasoning. It is understanding logos, reason, the controlling force of the universe, and good manners. Science supports democracy, not Christianity with its superstition and myth.

Left or right Libertarians can only be those that are abandoning Libertarian views in favor of more authoritarian ones, as in looking to gov. to solve their problems, when their problem is the need to tell others how to live and what "choices" they can make. — Harry Hindu

I hate labeling! Politics needs to be about issues, not imagined divisions.

Only when our democracy is defended in the classroom is it defended, and we haven't done that since 1958. We need to know history and civics. We need literacy in great literature to have a great nation.

Thomas Jefferson believed that an educated citizenry is crucial for a free society. He famously stated, "If a nation expects to be ignorant and free, in a state of civilization, it expects what never was and never will be". He also emphasized the importance of education for the general public, believing that an informed populace is necessary for a republic to function. AI

Democracy is based on the notion that we can learn and we can do better when all learn and share responsibility for self-government. This mentality is not about choosing sides and being winners or losers as though politics were a form of football.

Please, can we drop labels and talk issues?

Pre-conventional morality is only concerned with power. — Brendan Golledge

I see concern for liberty and justice for all, for which the US has stood for since its beginning. I do not see the connection between that and being a child because it comes with responsibility and the possibility of manifesting a better reality for all of mankind. Our democracy is supposed to be rule by reason, not authoritarian power over the masses.

To me, MAGA is equal to Hitler's propaganda used to manipulate the masses who have been prepared to follow, instead of lead, since the 1958 National Defense Education Act replaced the US model of education with the German model of education for a technological society with unknown values. Since that change in the purpose of education, we have left moral training up to the Church, and now the US is what we defended our democracy against. Church authority is based on superstition and myth and stands in the way of education for good moral reasoning that is essential to democracy. This has caused a moral crisis that threatens our democracy because it leads to authoritarianism.

I do not support "mind-independent reality?" But I must say I do not understand anything you said.

All of reality is a reaction to what is. All things are a matter of cause and effect.

What the heck is a mind-independent reality other than a lack of awareness of the interactions of all things?

I am not sure if anyone is interested in the subject? Maybe it would help to define fascism and what it has to do with injustice?

Fascism is a far-right, authoritarian, and ultranationalist political ideology and movement, characterized by a dictatorial leader, centralized autocracy, militarism, forcible suppression of opposition, ...
Source:
Wikipedia

Italy (1922–1943)
The first fascist country was Italy, ruled by Benito Mussolini (Il Duce). The Italian Fascists imposed totalitarian rule and crushed political and intellectual opposition, while promoting economic modernization, traditional social values and a rapprochement with the Roman Catholic Church.
List of fascist movements - Wikipedia

It is the Italians we have to thank for our "government of the people, by the people, for the people," because they resurrected the concept and began the renaissance. If it had not been for them the memory of democracy would be lost in the past.

Why did the Renaissance begin in Italy? Because Rome adopted Greek concepts and had a democracy for a while. While most of Europe had agrarian cultures/ economies, the Itallians were traders and merchants and had a cosmopolitan experience. They studied the old documents with the hope of resurrecting the glory of Rome. So here are people who consider justice is served by reasoning and resolving problems together.

We can see it is hard to maintain a democracy for long. Greeks did not consider a large population capable of having a democracy, and it would be nice to see a few thoughts about this. Can the flip from democracy to authoritarianism be accomplished? Is the relationship between political order and justice understood?

↪Athena If you cannot see the argument, we're in the same place we always are Athena. No matter... — AmadeusD

How can I see what is not there? Do you even know what the subject is? You keep making me the subject of what you have to say, and I am not the subject of this thread. Your opinions are not facts, and you are not making arguments that can move a discussion forward.

The military part of the complex has had an influence on civilian rhetoric, rituals, and practices.

Language that was once used exclusively in the military has leaked out into police, fire, first responder forces. Those who died while on duty used to be called fatalities or dead. Now they are called "fallen". Employees of the army used to be called soldiers; now they are called warriors. A fallen warrior has become a secret object.

I found considerable discord at the funeral of a brother who had retired from the army. The family wanted to use several 'martial' gyms and the Methodist pastor rejected their choices as inappropriate. The church did not have American flags in the front of the church. This change had apparently caused a number of veterans to leave the congregation. The ashes urn was covered with a liturgical cloth, rather than the flag which some people wanted. More angst. — BC

I picked up another book with an explanation of how Industry has impacted the military. If that sounds interesting to you, please let me know. I will return to that book for a better understanding. Of course, it makes sense that Industry and the Military would both have an effect on the other, but I didn't think of this.

What is important to me in the discussion of Fascism and Justice, is how we are organized and who has controlling power and who does not.

Money plays a big part in all this. For years, I have tried to wrap my head around the economics of power and control. At the end of WWII, a book warned of the danger of the new relationship between Industry and the Military. I want to know more, and if anyone is aware of the changing bureaucratic models and relationships, please let me know.

That is your uninformed judgment, you know? For information you need to ask a question, or to make an argument, you need to offer your reasoning, not just your opinion of the strength of my argument.

I am writing this thread as there is a crisis in the Welfare State and NHS currently. I am sure that this goes back a long way. The Labour government of Starmer (and Rachel Reeves) are trying to find solutions, with a radical overhaul. However, so many people are so extremely disappointed because the solutions seem to target vulnerable growth, especially the elderly, disabled and people with mental health problems. Actually, from budgets and proposed policy it is questionable who will benefit, if anyone. — Jack Cummins

I think we need to begin with a reality check. What resources does each nation have and how many people need those resources? We live on a finite planet as though nothing were finite. If populations were suddenly cut in half, those who remained would be valuable. Property owners would slash their rents in competition for renters. The housing market could also be flooded with would-be homeowners, and the cost of housing would crash.

I am forever thinking of the gold rush and how overnight there were booming gold and silver towns. When the mines were depleted, all property value fell as people left town, the bank was closed and businesses moved away. All that is left is ghost towns. Could that be prevented? How does a nation without capital build an industrial base? In reality, how do economies work? Should Iceland become a dependent part of the Great USA? Without the mineral resources of Iceland, would it be important for the USA to rule over Iceland? How do economies work?

"His support of Israel equals Hitler.
— Athena

This is utterly insane though, sorry. — AmadeusD

Hmm, the title of this thread is Fascism and Justice. That makes your argument delicious.

Wikipedia say this:

Fascism prioritizes the nation over the individual, who exists to serve the nation." and as "an ultranationalist, authoritarian political philosophy. It combines elements of nationalism, militarism, economic self-sufficiency, and totalitarianism.

What is the best way to unite us against them?

Decades ago, the sociologist Georg Simmel argued that nothing unites a nation, or any group of people for that matter, quite like having a common enemy. Recent research by Mark Landau (professor of psychology, University of Kansas), though not testing unity of groups, does indicate that having enemies provides some psychological benefits. https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/the-big-questions/201110/enemies-enhance-the-meaning-of-life

Trump's position on Palestian makes these people the enemy as surely as Hitler's position on Jews made them the enemy. He is playing into Bush's war on evil and the power and glory of the Christian US. What is being done to the Palestinians is totally unacceptable, but Trump has made anyone who speaks against what Iseal is doing, the enemy. But the enemy is not just the Palestinians and those who defend them, but everyone who was not born in the US and whose parents were not born in the US. The enemy is everyone who is not one of us and the left who have ruined our country. Everyone is out to ruin the US, and therefore, the Right must stand together and fight like hell.

Christians are thrilled with this strong leader just as the Nazi were thrilled with Hitler. Both the followers of Hitler and Trump believe they were treated badly and their country was being ruined, and now it is time to fight like hell to make America great again. And like good Hegel followers, it doesn't matter how much immediate changes are hurting individual citizens because they all should be willing to sacrifice for the glory of the nation.

Hitler and the Nazi Party led the process of rearmament and reorganization of German society with the intent of 'purifying' German society, acquiring lebensraum, and getting even with the Allies. The German Plan wasn't a state secret. The details were laid out in domestic propaganda. — BC

That is what I am seeing today.

I want to talk about the essential change in bureaucracy and the relationship with education and culture.

In our past, the US had great leaders like Washington and Lincoln, and Hamilton. At this time in history, everyone did his/her job as best as s/he could. There is a problem with this, when someone dies, it takes months for everyone to adjust to the new person. The Prussians avoided that problem by controlling everything with policy. Every job was closely defined and everyone could die but the bureaucracy never dies. It is no longer strong and creative human beings running the show, but the policy that defines what the job is and how it will be done. Everyone becomes replaceable.

That change in bureaucracy becomes a change in education because we are no longer preparing our Washington, Lincoln or Hamilton to step up and lead. With merit hiring, we want someone who can do the job as well as the person before. Instead of education for life and leadership, it is education for technological skills. Gone are the days when everyone was prepared for civic and industrial leadership. Like the Borg, we want someone we can just plug in and do the job. No personal judgment needed, just read the policy.

BTW, not all the Germans believed the lies; not all the Soviet citizens believed the lies; not all Americans believe the lies. — BC

I think we can see what Trump is doing with the power of fear. You know like Niccolo Machiavelli. Trump is building on fear. Could I be the next to lose my job? Can the college survive the loss of federal help? Why is it that anything said against what Israel has done to Palestine is illegal, antisemitic?
How many immigrants feel safe enough to argue against what is happening? How about a Palestinian who hears over and over again about Israel's right to defend itself and not a peep about Palestine's right to self-defense?

You know what, it doesn't matter if we see the lies, when we do not dare call out the liar. If you can not get a good job without joining the Nasi party, you keep your mouth shut and do what you have to do to pay your bills.

And while this hateful thing is going on, TV preachers continue to support Trump and tell us he is supported by God. We are dealing with a myth just as the Germans were dealing with a myth. The Bible is not a book for democracy.

I don’t mean to bum you or anyone else out by all this – and I’m sure some will find the just stated an all too laughable fantasy or, else, see no problems with authoritarian governance to begin with. It’s just that, while I view some humanitarian causes lost in the relative short-term, in the long-term I yet find that there is yet much to struggle for. This, at least, for those who care about future generations of children and the like. — javra

Schools were used to mobilize our nation for the two World Wars. Understanding the importance of this is difficult today because we are judging the world as it is now. Especially when we entered WWI, we were very low-tech. Women knitted socks and scarves for military men. Schools taught women to substitute cornmeal for flour so we could send our wheat overseas and feed the allies. Even at the end of WWII, people came home to outhouses and wood stoves.

My copy of the 1917 National Education Association Conference is an amazing piece of history explaining everything the schools did to raise patriotism and support the war effort. Back in the day, we supported the wars by buying war bonds. Children used their lunch money to buy war bonds and schools sold them. Our main defense was patriotic citizens who understood why democracy must be defended, not military technology. Germany was more technologically prepared for war than the US, before the 1958 National Defense Education Act gave us rapidly increasing military technology.

The point I'd like to make is the difference education can make. Our schools were the best organization we had for mobilizing us for war. At the start of WWI we didn't even have a market for radios. Newspapers were the only news source. People living on farms, as most people did, were not well informed when working was more important than going to college. We live in a changed world, but back in the day, mobilizing a nation the size of the US was a huge feat. Knowing what we did then leads me to believe we could do it again if we understood the importance of education to democracy. If we want to make our nation great again, we need to begin with out schools.

I agree with what you said about morality but I do not believe the end result will always be anarchy.

There is a notion called "logos" coming out of Athens. Logos is the controlling force of the universe made manifest in speech. Moral is to know the universal laws and have good manners. Later, Cicero, who studied in Athens, concluded that it is our nature to do the right thing when we know what that is. At the beginning of the Renaissance, Italians went with the notion that educated people can reach a consensus about morals, and they can govern themselves. Workers were educated for good citizenship and to be self-governing. This education is the trivium.

The Trivium - The Regina Academies
The Trivium is a foundational model in classical education, comprising three stages of learning: Grammar, Logic (also known as Dialectic), and Rhetoric. It's often seen as a framework for cultivating critical thinking, effective communication, and a broad understanding of the world.

AI

Poetry, history, and literature teach how to have the good life.

That was the model for education in the US until 1958 when the the National Defense Education Act was [passed for national defense reasons. Those who made that decision had a very limited idea of what was and what was needed. They lacked wisdom! We are now what we defended our democracy against. Anarchy being very much a part of the problem because education for technology is not education for life, liberty, and justice.

Only when the young are prepared for democracy is democracy protected. We stopped doing that in 1958 and put fascism in full control. I need to get to @BC with this explanation of fascicm.