"Consciousness finds that it immediately is and is not another consciousness, as also that this other is for itself only when it cancels itself as existing for itself, and has self-existence only in the self-existence of the other." — Gregory

What does he mean?

A mechanical linear view of matter won't get to the core reality on consciousness — Gregory

Neither will a non-linear view. The core reality of consciousness lies inside matter.

An afterlife, reinforced by society and culture, is an effective way to manage grief and dread. But I agree with you that supernatural beliefs like this often cause great harm. — Tom Storm

Natural beliefs can cause great harm too. Just look at the state nature is in. And the worst has still to come.

What were you on while writing this?

On the other hand, @Wayfarer makes a good point. Belief in a new life, be it secular or not, can give a good excuse from refraining doing harm. If that has repercussions for the afterthislife.

Getting drunk on thoughts of a better life beyond this one is no better than getting drunk every evening after work. — Philosophim

Very true. It can stand on the same ground even as escaping by heroin. No real solution. Maybe heroin is even better. That at least takes pain away. Better than: "Ah, WTF! Next life better! Let's focus on that..."

And this is my point. Coming up with something that satisfies our emotional desires is stunting growth. It is imaginary. Does it help you be a better person to others? Does it help you make the world a better place? I just don't see — Philosophim

Well, I didn't come up on it to fit my desire. I never desire to live another life. It just turns out to be that way. And luckily. Maybe next time it's done better. I didn't ask for this world I live in.
It's not going to make a better or worse person of me. Is it that what makes you angry? That people believing in reincarnation forget to think about fellow people? Then you could transpone life every time to the next. Same as prolonging everything to tomorrow. I don't like that either. It's no excuse.

There is literally nothing easier than not doing what one does not want to do. — unenlightened

Tell that to the heroin addict.

Must be the mushroom soup...

Do any of that explain what time really is? — Alkis Piskas

Can't we say that time is an irreversible collective motion of particles, which started near time zero?

What makes me angry is when people lie to support their personal bias. — theRiddler

You can see your present existence as proof of a previous existence. Why is that a lie?

How are you so sure you won't be born again?

I have the mechanism to make it happen.

Why do you insist on believing something you know you just came up with? — Philosophim

Took me 15 years to come up with. It fits my belief exactly. It even inspired it.

This is all made up in your head — Philosophim

All cosmological theories are made up in heads!

I have fairly good knowledge of the physics and chemistry of the brain. But that's contingent on the real state of affairs. I know the basic neo-cortex structures and have done a fair amount of personal experiments, even drug-induced, and read a lot about it. But personal experience shows me how the network actually functions. Just observe.

Either way, atheism is warranted. — Seppo

Atheism is then empty too. Even doubly!

You got it the wrong way round. I don't allow my thoughts to think about all that science. I know how the brain functions. It's not that difficult. I have over 30 years experience with it! It's a neural network that's there for me, like the physical world. The neo-cortex is a nice extra feature!

Okay. I'll try. I'm not trolling or whatever. I'm serious. In my view, the singularity is a thin wormhole connecting two parts of a 4-dimensional universe. I consider particles as small geometric structures. Three large space dimension of a 6D space are curled up to tiny circles. A tiny Planck-sized torus. A cartesian product of circles. Almost, but not quite pointlike. They are confined to 3D space (which is 6D basically). Before I continue, you want me to continue?

Why am I trolling? How do you know what I know?

Can you give a real-world, specific example of a cause that effects a change over distance, with elapsed time equal to zero? — ucarr

They can't! Every change in space, dx, is accompanied by a dt. You're absolutely right!

There are no spacelike worldlines.

Mind citing what that hard scientific reality is? — Philosophim

I can cite myself.

Rebirth is no fact. — Philosophim

You can deduce the proof from cosmology.

Yet when I have spoken with people who believe in life after death, and as someone who once believed in it, I have found it is a convenient excuse for why you don't do more. — Philosophim

No, rebirth is no excuse, it's a fact.

I see you started a new discussion on this topic! I'm not sure why it makes you mad. It's not like believing in God. It's hard scientific reality.

Abstract? Seems pretty concrete to me. Hyper realism, that's abstract.

If its not the same as in this universe, then its not you. Beyond the fantastical idea that this will even happen, at best its a clone. — Philosophim

That's because you argue from the perspective in this universe. In this universe there can't be a clone of me. It's someone else. The follow up universe is disconnected from this one. By the way, it's even more fantastic to think there is only one big bang.

Explain to me why you think that person born in a different universe is you? Its the same as if there was a clone in this universe. It is not you. — Philosophim

That's my point. It's not the same as in this universe. All material particles will disappear in time in this universe. New appear in a new bang. A new you and me appear. Why shouldn't they be me or you?

Yes it does. If you are cloned after a big bang, that is not you. You will not come back. You will never come back. I don't say this to hurt you. I say this so you recognize reality, and are able to live your life free from a fantasy otherwise. — Philosophim

I don't say it to hurt you either, but the new you is you. All is gone here, everything starts again in zillion years. But it seems the blink of an eye. But if you don't believe this, it's up to you.

You can't be reborn in this universe. The clone is not you. It's impossible you are reborn in this universe, as the particles you are made of have a unique history. If all particles here will be gone in the future, new particles appear in a new big bang, leading to a new you.

Second, you are who you are because of yourself, and the circumstances you are in. If you were cloned today, you would not be your clone. You would be in one location, while they would be in another. You would not share consciousness. On the second of creation, your paths would diverge. In the incredibly unlikely scenario of an exact repeat of existence trillions of years later, it would not be you, just someone very like you. You will be dead and gone. You will never come back. — Philosophim

The clone argument doesn't hold for serial big bangs. I have good theoretical arguments for them to occur. You can get born like you in an infinite variety of planets and situations on them. We will come back...

I hope that technology absolutely ensures that we will all perish if we use war to settle things. — universeness

Don't you think this reassurance will be a reason for some to start such a war? I think it's a very scary idea that such a war is possible in the first place. Gives me nightmares!

Do not live with the idea that there will be something after, live with the idea that what you have is a precious moment in all of existence that will never be repeated again. — Philosophim

Who says our state doesn't appear again in a follow up big bang? All material particles in the present universe will be annihilated in the far future. All that will be left is a diluting photon gass sending fleeting remembrances of all happy happenings into oblivion at infinity. This state can induce a new bang and fresh particles can condense on a new planet around a new star into new you's, me's and everyone's. Just a thought.

Are you accusing Bartricks & me of being prime movers? :blush: — Agent Smith

:rofl:

But why are you skeptical about that?

Baby's are born with a priori knowledge. If born blank knowledge gathering can't even start.

No, your brain controls the entire body you see in the mirror. — Garrett Travers

No. My body controls and it uses the brain. If I type these words, it's my body typing, my body steering my vingers, via the brain, not from the brain.

The only way to secure a suatinable future is to increase and extend prosperity, and the only way to do that is to harness magma energy - to meet all our energy needs, plus, capture carbon, deslainate, irrigate and recycle. — karl stone

Get real mr. Stone! The only way out is not magma. That's letting the volcano in. The only way out is production decrease. Nature has suffered long enough under the capitalistic hammering.

But they were aborting the girls so they could have sons. Leaders also figured out that they would run out of people to participate in the economy and China would plunge into a bottomless depression. There's a good chance they're right. Then we'll see some real misery. — T Clark

Abortion should be forbidden then. Economy is of no importance whatsoever.

That's a reasonable position, although it didn't work so well for the Chinese. — T Clark

The Chinese changed it to 3. They are stupid. One was better.

This is art: