Moore's reasoning is inductive, not deductive, and it implicitly begs the question. He takes just two suggested definitions (that 'good' means the same as 'pleasure' or 'what promotes the greatest happiness'), finds these implausible (which is what he means when he says we can ask 'with significance' whether they are good), and then infers, simply on the basis of these two failed suggestions, that 'this result will always happen whatever definition one proposes' (my underlining). He does not justify this inference from the particular to the universal in any way; the inference rests on nothing more than Moore's own prior conviction that good is indefinable, and thus begs the question. Moore's conclusion would only be justified if he had considered all possible suggested definitions of 'good' and found them wanting.Moore endeavored to establish the first part by means of the so-called open-question argument. Whatever definition one proposes for good, he said, it is always possible to ask of the definition whether it is itself good. For instance, if one defines good as pleasure or what promotes the greatest happiness, it is always possible to ask, with significance, whether pleasure or what promotes the greatest happiness is after all good. But this would be impossible if the proposed definition really were a definition. The question would then not be significant. Good would just mean ‘pleasure’ or ‘what promotes the greatest happiness,’ and the question whether pleasure or what promotes the greatest happiness is good would not be a significant or open one. It would be answered in the asking. This result will always happen whatever definition one proposes for good. Hence good must be indefinable. — Peter L. P. Simpson, On the Naturalistic Fallacy and St. Thomas, pp. 2-3
I Googled 'definition definition' (that was fun), and it said 'a statement of the exact meaning of a word, especially in a dictionary.' That will do for me.I think that what you have provided is a list of reasons why we might want to call something 'good' — that it's advantageous, or pleasant, or helpful, or accommodating — which is not the same thing as a definition.
— Herg
Define definition then for me, please, so I can proceed on satisfying your demand to comply to the form of the definition of any thing, as defined by you. — god must be atheist
"Good" is an adjective denoting that a thing that is good is a thing that is advantageous and pleasant and helpful and accommodating OR at least three at the same time and in the same respect of the aforementioned qualifiers. — god must be atheist
OP is asking if good can be defined, and is therefore, by implication, asking for a definition of 'good'. I think that what you have provided is a list of reasons why we might want to call something 'good' — that it's advantageous, or pleasant, or helpful, or accommodating — which is not the same thing as a definition.Caveat: the definition I gave has been amended properly by Bert1, which states that pleasure is good, and a final means by itself (as per Hume), and the other thing that is good is a process, tool, action, opinion, that promotes the eventuality of a pleasure to happen. — god must be atheist
I think this is pretty nearly right. The only thing I would want to do (apart from removing the words 'intrinsic' and intrinsically', because we can say that something is good because it is instrumentally good, not just because it is intrinsically good) is to replace 'approval' with something more general, in keeping with the fact that god-must-be-an-atheist's list has four items in it that aspire to cover a range of different responses. As I see it, if I say 'Sally is good', while it may indeed be the case that I approve of Sally and think that she is likeable, what I'm actually saying (because 'good' serves only to connect an object with positivity, and not with anything as specific as approval or liking) is that Sally deserves or merits or warrants some kind of positive attitude or response — which might indeed be approval or liking — but without pointing directly at any one of these responses, merely waving a hand vaguely at the entire class of positive responses, from mild approval through degrees of liking to active seeking out, without telling you which of them is my actual response or attitude. (I think of this as the 'Monty Python and the Holy Grail' theory of the meaning of 'good': John Cleese on the castle wall saying, with a comic French accent, 'I fart in your general direction.')When a speaker declares x is good, they are marking their approval of x. Moreover, they are asserting that this approval springs from something intrinsic to x itself. If I say "Sally is good", I don't merely like Sally, according to me Sally is so constituted as to be intrinsically liked. — hypericin
Suppose someone comes up with an example that they claim debunks your definition. How can we tell whether their claim is true? Is the example the standard by which the definition is to be judged, or is the definition the standard by which the example is to be judged?"Good" is an adjective denoting that a thing that is good is a thing that is advantageous and pleasant and helpful and accommodating OR at least three at the same time and in the same respect of the aforementioned qualifiers.
I invite examples that debunk this definition. — god must be atheist
If determinism trumps rationalism, then any argument that purports to show that determinism trumps rationalism may be invalid; we may only think it's invalid because it is determined that we do so. Thus the position 'determinism trumps rationalism' undermines itself.Determinism trumps rationalism. — Richard B
Not if I have free will, because if I have free will, I can do what I do in spite of the way I am. Strawson's initial premise therefore begs the question, and his argument is therefore circular. Why are we wasting our time with this?Here is Strawson's paper: Galen Strawson: The Impossibility of Moral Responsibility (1994)
↪Sargon summarizes it accurately. Much of the short paper consists of restatements and elaborations (or belaboring) of this thesis. Here is a longer version from the paper:
(1) You do what you do because of the way you are. — SophistiCat
I don't. I was taking a bet. The odds of me winning are proportional to the amount of evidence I have that the North Pole exists. The odds of me losing are proportional to the amount of evidence I have that it doesn't. I think my bet is fairly safe, but nothing is guaranteed.Walmart and the North Pole both really exist
— Herg
But how do you know that The North Pole really exists? — RussellA
Nope. I know you'd like to nail words like 'real', 'entity' and 'existent' to the world we live in, so that they can't be applied to fictional or imagined objects, but it can't be done. Any word at all can be used of either real or imaginary objects. Any concept instantiated in the real world can be imagined to be instantiated in this world or some merely imagined world. 'Real' does not always mean actually real; 'existent' does not always mean actually existent. That's just the way things are.My mistake was duplication: I shouldn't have used both 'fictitious' and 'supposed'.
— Herg
Ok, but now you've done it again, with 'real' and 'existent'. — bongo fury
I'd forgotten that there was a real St Nicholas. He can't either be identical to, or work with, three imaginary people, because a real object and an imaginary object can't have relations with each other — neither real relations nor imaginary relations. However, an imaginary St Nick — who is an analogue, in a context of supposition, of the real St Nick — can be identical to these other three people in Shawn's context of supposition, and can be separate from them and work with them in yours.Since all of these people are imaginary, they cannot be either really separate or really identical.
— Herg
At last one of those in that list was a real man. :wink: — Tom Storm
I know you claimed that 'fictional entity' is an oxymoron. I don't agree. It would be an oxymoron if calling something an entity implied that it was real, but it doesn't, because you can refer to something as an entity in a work of fiction. (There's a Star Trek episode in which there's something called the Crystalline Entity. It isn't real.) Calling something an entity does not amount a claim of real existence, only of existence in either the real world or a context of supposition. My mistake was duplication: I shouldn't have used both 'fictitious' and 'supposed'.'Fictitious supposed entity' does not accurately capture my meaning.
— Herg
Ok, what does? What form of words is satisfactorily not an oxymoron? — bongo fury
Since all of these people are imaginary, they cannot be either really separate or really identical. (Imaginary objects cannot have real properties.) @Shawn imagines them as identical, you imagine them as separate. Therefore in his context of supposition they are identical, in yours they are separate. End of story.Santa is a person that ascribes a jolly old man over at the North Pole. He is known by two names, both "Santa Claus" and "St. Nicholas".
— Shawn
No. This is where it gets complicated. Can you demonstrate that Santa Clause is identical with those others? I would suggest to you that Santa Clause, St Nick, Kris Kringle and Father Christmas are four separate figures who work together over Christmas. — Tom Storm
It doesn't differ in any important way. I think the reason Griffin talks about 'contexts of supposition' rather than 'fictions', is that there can be other contexts of supposition than those created by writing fiction. For example, if kids play at cowboys and Indians (though I guess they don't do that anymore), this play creates a context of supposition in which they are, indeed, cowboys and Indians.points out that we merely suppose that there is someone called Santa who lives at the North Pole.
— Herg
How is this different from saying that we merely entertain the fiction? — bongo fury
Mea culpa. 'Fictitious supposed entity' does not accurately capture my meaning. A fictitious entity is a supposed entity. As you imply, a fictitious supposed entity would be an entity that is merely supposed to exist by people who are themselves fictitious. I apologise for my terminological inexactitude.A fictitious supposed entity
— Herg
You might as well say, a fictitious fictitious entity. — bongo fury
I'm not sure what dichotomy you're setting up here. By 'have a historical background', are you suggesting that they may be based on something that once really existed? Anyway, all gods are merely supposed entities, until it is shown otherwise, if that answers your question.Soo, when we talk about God, or Allah, are those supposed entities or do they just have a historical background? — Shawn
No. Real entities have real existence. Supposed entities only have a supposed existence (that is, we only suppose that there are such entities and that they exist.). If someone wrote a scientific paper claiming that Santa existed in the real world, that would be claiming real existence for him. But if someone wrote a story in which a scientist went to the North Pole and found Santa, and said, 'Wow, Santa really exists,' Santa in the story would not have real existence, he would only have a supposed existence, like everything else in the story. There is real existence, and there are supposed existences which are analogues of real existence, just as there are real objects, and supposed objects which are either analogues of real objects such as the North Pole with Santa living in it) or are supposed objects with no real analogue (such as Santa himself).Are you noticing that the lines are getting blurry when thinking about stipulating existence to supposed entities? — Shawn
That Santa lives only in a fictitious or supposed or imaginary North Pole isn't an assumption, it's a necessity. Being imaginary, he can't live anywhere else.The North Pole in the context of supposition is not the actual North Pole — actual entities can't exist in contexts of supposition — but a fictitious analogue of it.
— Herg
This seems incoherent. We can't assume that Santa lives in his "own" North Pole, while the "true case" of the actual North Pole not having Santa Claus over there. — Shawn
I don't think I really understand your point. What you describe doesn't sound to me like the kind of mixing I had in mind. When I spoke of mixing, I was referring to the mistake made by some philosophers (e.g. Meinong) of thinking that merely supposed objects can have real properties (such as existence). This sort of mixing is a category mistake.I think that as long as we are careful not to mix the real with the supposed or fictitious, there's no problem.
— Herg
But, this happens all the time. We don't distinguish for children that Santa lives over at Walmart or at the North Pole. It's all ad hoc here. — Shawn
A fictitious supposed entity is not an oxymoron. We suppose that there is such an entity, when in fact there is not.To suppose Santa's existence is to ontologically ascribe him to the domain of discourse based of of his fiction as an entity. Yet, a fictitious entity is an oxymoron, so how is that so? — Shawn
Apologies, I should have been clearer. The North Pole in the context of supposition is not the actual North Pole — actual entities can't exist in contexts of supposition — but a fictitious analogue of it.In this particular 'context of supposition' (to use Griffin's own term), both Santa and the North Pole exist, and so does the relation between them 'Santa lives at the North Pole.'
— Herg
I'm not sure if this is some sort of category error. The North Pole actually obtains in the real world; but, Santa over at the North Pole, does not. How is that so? — Shawn
Nicholas Griffin, in an essay in 'Russell vs. Meinong: One Hundred Years after ""On Denoting"' https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/19960205-russell-vs-meinong), points out that we merely suppose that there is someone called Santa who lives at the North Pole. In this particular 'context of supposition' (to use Griffin's own term), both Santa and the North Pole exist, and so does the relation between them 'Santa lives at the North Pole.' Outside this context of supposition, in the real world, the North Pole exists, but Santa does not, and nor does the relation 'Santa lives at the North Pole.'It's funny to see that the central question of the title stated hasn't been addressed. Here it goes again with a little more,
In what sense does Santa Claus or even - Pegasus exist? — Shawn
When you say good feelings are not inherently good, I assume you mean something different by the first 'good' and the second 'good'; otherwise your statement appears self-contradictory. Since you mention hedonism, I assume that by 'good feelings', you mean pleasant feelings. (Tell me if I'm wrong.) So I assume you mean this:The closest any system (that I know of) gets to claiming moral axioms is hedonism. In it, good feelings are good, bad feelings are bad. But they're wrong: they're merely things that evolution created to help us survive. They are not actually inherently good or bad, despite Hedonism's claims — Leftist
I don't assert that God is. 'God is imaginary' means the same as 'there is no God'. So any assertion about an imaginary God is talk about nothing, and it doesn't matter what it asserts.there is nothing to prevent God being both imaginary and self-contradictory.
— Herg
If god is self-contradictory then god renders himself unavailable for discussion.
(p & ~p)⊃q
If god is self-contradicting, anything follows, and so anythign can be asserted. Conversation ends; truth becomes falsehood.
Hence, if you assert that god is, and is self-contradictory, you are not worth talking to. — Banno
Another straw man. I don't hold that pain and badness are identical. When I said 'pain is bad', I meant that pain (or, more precisely, the unpleasantness of pain) has the property of being bad. My ethical naturalism is not founded on an equivocation over 'is', it's founded on the fact that pleasantness and unpleasantness of experience to some degree dictate our evaluations, so that the evaluations are not entirely subjective. If you read the three syllogisms I posted earlier, you will see that.↪Herg
Q; Why do we have anaesthetics?
A: Because pain is bad. Everyone knows this, except a handful of subjectivist philosophers.
— Herg
You are committing the naturalistic fallacy. The word 'is' in 'Because pain is bad' is ambiguous. It could mean that pain and badness are one and the same. That would be the 'is' of identity. Or it could mean that pain 'has' badness (in the way that 'ice cream is cold' doesn't mean ice cream and coldness are identical, but that ice cream has coldness as a property).
Now, what the naturalist does is thinks "oo, pain is bad" - which is (normally) correct, if the 'is' in that sentence is the is of predication. Normally pain does indeed have badness. But then they conclude that pain 'is' bad as in 'pain and badness are one and the same. And that's to commit the naturalistic fallacy - to equivocate over the 'is' of identity and the 'is' of predication.
That doesn't by itself establish that pain and badness are distinct, it is just a fallacious way of arriving at a conclusion. — Bartricks
I haven't said that pain and badness are one and the same.Are pain and badness one and the same? No, for if they were then it would be impossible for there to be pain that is not bad. — Bartricks
When it is deserved, it is deserved precisely because it is bad. That's the whole point of retributive punishment - it repays bad with bad. More precisely, it repays intrinsic badness with intrinsic badness which, because it is (considered to be) deserved, is (considered to be) instrumentally good. Rehabilitative or reformatory punishment, by contrast, generally repays intrinsic bad with treatment which is both intrinsically good and (intended to be) instrumentally good.Yet sometimes pain is not bad, for instance when it is deserved. — Bartricks
I agree with this, but it isn't very helpful. All it says is that for an object to be bad is for it to have negative value. What it doesn't say is why any object would have negative value. My theory explains this: an object has negative value if it influences us to value it negatively; unpleasantness of experience influences us to value the experience negatively; and thus an unpleasant experience has the property of badness.Furthermore, for something to be 'bad' is for it to be disvaluable. — Bartricks
I disagree with this. It's inconsistent with your assertion in the previous sentence: "for something to be 'bad' is for it to be disvaluable" means that the badness consists in the object having the property of negative value, whereas "for pain to be bad is for pain to be disvalued" means that the badness consists in the object being valued negatively. Roughly speaking, the first is objectivist, the second subjectivist.So, for pain to be bad is for pain to be disvalued. — Bartricks
Once again, I haven't said that the pain is the badness.But pain could not itself 'be' the badness, because that would require that pain disvalue itself. — Bartricks
And I never said it was.Which is insane as pain is a mental state and is not in the business of valuing or disvaluing things. — Bartricks
Theism intruding into ethics? Dear me.So, anyway, you're wrong. Subjectivism is true, albeit divine subjectivism. — Bartricks
I have on my shelves this book (https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/13624497-ethical-naturalism) which contains essays by thirteen present-day ethical naturalists. Twelve of them are university professors, one is a fellow. Which is more likely: that these thirteen professional philosophers are all mad, or that you don't understand ethical naturalism?↪Herg
Who is issuing the prescription?
— Bartricks
Nature.
— Herg
Oh, so you're mad. Nature issues prescriptions. I see. Stones speak to you do they? What are the molecules telling you to do today? — Bartricks
Greater in what way? Since you (and Anselm) don't say in what way, should we assume in every way possible? If so, that would include greater in height, greater in ability to eat pies in a pie-eating contest, greater in armpit smelliness, and a whole lot of other greaters.The concept of God is a being in which none greater can be conceived. — 3017amen
Well, yes. My concept of God now is of a very tall dude who can eat more pies than anyone else and has smellier armpits than anyone else. I often wondered what God was like. Thank you for clarifying that for me.Since anyone can conceive or comprehend, a priori, that particular definition standard, one can conceive of a God.
Who is issuing the prescription? — Bartricks
Yes.↪Herg How am I begging the question against the naturalist? The naturalist identifies moral properties - such as rightness and goodness - with natural features, yes? — Bartricks
My argument explains that.But for an act to be right is for it 'to be done'. That is, there is a prescription enjoining us to do it. How does a natural feature issue a prescription?
I'm not claiming that it does. You're confusing the action of valuing a thing with a thing having value.And for something to be morally good is for it to be morally valuable. How does a natural feature value anything?
True.Here are two statements:
"Xing is wrong"
"Xing has natural feature P"
They are very different. Both are descriptions, but the first describes a prescription, whereas the second does not.
True.So they are not equivalent.
False. Naturalism asserts that they are already statements of both kinds. 'We ought not to inflict pain' = 'there is an obligation not to inflict pain', and this is both descriptive and prescriptive.Yet naturalism turns all moral statements into statements of the second kind.
Again, I didn't say that.↪Herg
The point of my first syllogism is to show that there are values built into nature.
— Herg
So you think the mindless natural world values things? — Bartricks
True, but again, not what I said.I value things. You value things. My chair doesn't. That rock over there doesn't.
And again.And does 'nature' issue prescriptions as well?
No, this is your collection of straw men.This is the stuff of madness.
It's not ambiguous. You are begging the question against ethical naturalism. The point of the first premise is to point out that a value claim can also be a claim about natural properties. Your characterisation of that as 'ambiguous' rests entirely on your own tacit assumption that this cannot occur. But it does.Your first argument does no such thing, incidentally. It's first premise is ambiguous between a substantial moral claim and a claim about how people use a word (that is, you want both to say how the word 'appropriate' is used, and help yourself to actual appropriateness).
It shows that nature sometimes dictates what our values are to be.EIther way it doesn't show that 'values' are built into nature.
No, it doesn't. But that isn't what I said. Please try to answer what I actually write, instead of changing it to something else and than answering that.Oh, in that case your argument is unsound, as premise 1 is obviously false. "That's morally bad" does not mean "a lot of people use the word 'inappropriate' to refer to it". — Bartricks
If they are controversial, how are you justified in asserting, without supporting reasoning, that they don't exist? Or, conversely, if they don't exist, how can they be controversial?However, actual infinity is highly controversial.
Actual infinities don't exist. — TheMadFool
The point of my first syllogism is to show that there are values built into nature. It just is the case that, for example, if you have a pain, you want the pain to stop. The negative value you place on the pain does not originate in your mind, it is imposed on your mind by the demands of the pain.But only minds can issue prescriptions or value anything. — Bartricks
Where exactly do I presuppose a moral truth?Your argument presupposes moral truths and so doesn't tell us whether morality is objective or subjective. — Bartricks
Aa I say, it's a thesis about how 'bad' is actually used. I don't think that's helping myself, I think I'm just reporting a fact about language use.Premise 1 in your first argument helps itself to appropriateness.
That's similar to my premise 1, but IMO not as plausible; and you don't provide any grounds for believing this.But to say it is appropriate to have this or that feeling is to say it is right to feel it.
If the child is expected to have a happy life, then by killing it, since happiness is a good, you're expecting to replace net good with nothing, which is a bad thing to do. OTOH, if the child is expected to have a miserable life, then you're expecting to replace net bad with nothing, which is a good thing to do. However, in practice it is very hard to be sure what the future happiness of a child will be, so this simple calculation usually can't be made.Is killing a small child wrong? — Tom Storm
No, none of that. Making use of empirical observation does not commit one to empiricism. And although I do believe that I "can use language to arrive at meaning and a moral system," this is not a supposition, because I have good reason to believe it.So your moral system starts with suppositions that empiricism is true and you can use language to arrive at meaning and a moral system. — Tom Storm
Can you do it in a few dot points?
My moral system starts with two things: an empirical observation, and a thesis about the meaning of words. So yes, there is.Is there a moral system that doesn't start with a supposition - whether it be religious or secular? — Tom Storm
Even if our belief that morality is objective was caused by our or our ancestors' belief that objective moral truths came from God, that does not prove that there are no objective moral truths. We're doing philosophy here, not anthropology or sociology.But I do think that as our language evolved it was heavily influenced by the absolute and objective sense of moral values (and to a lesser extent an egoistic sense of aesthetic values) imposed by religious authority and thus retains a theocentric syntactic structure of the vast majority of time that our language's has undergone it's development. It is reflective of a time when divine command was the objective truth and fact of moral value. — Cartesian trigger-puppets
'Hitler was a bad man' is not a command, divine or otherwise.What pops into my head are commands like "shut the door!", "put down the gun!", etc. Commands, according to a book on logic that I read some suns ago, aren't propositions and so, can't be true or false. Divine Command Theory? — TheMadFool
All I can say with any degree of confidence is that morality may not be truth-apt, the fact that they're expressed in propositional form may just be a linguistic accident or perhaps is done out of necessity. — TheMadFool
By definition, nothing lies outside the world.6.41 The sense of the world must lie outside the world. — TLP
Begging the question.In the world everything is as it is, and everything happens as it does happen: in it no
value exists--and if it did exist, it would have no value.
Ditto. Also 'value that does have value' is meaningless.If there is any value that does have value, it must lie outside the whole sphere of what
happens and is the case.
No, most of it is at least partly deterministic.For all that happens and is the case is accidental.
No, for the reason just given.What makes it non-accidental cannot lie within the world, since if it did it would itself be accidental.
And again, there is nothing outside the world.It must lie outside the world.
'Hitler was a bad man' is a proposition of ethics.6.42 So too it is impossible for there to be propositions of ethics.
'Higher' is meaningless.Propositions can express nothing that is higher.
See the above proposition about Hitler.6.421 It is clear that ethics cannot be put into words.
No, aesthetics is about beauty, which does not come into ethics.(Ethics and aesthetics are one and the same.)