• J
    1.1k
    In a recent paper, Anjan Chakravartty discusses the concept of “epistemic stances.” This idea is not new, but Chakravartty provides a good description of what such a stance would be:

    An epistemic stance is an orientation, a collection of attitudes, values, aims, and other commitments relevant to thinking about scientific ontology, including policies or guidelines for the production of putatively factual beliefs . . .

    A stance is not a claim about the world. Stances are not believed so much as adopted and exemplified in assessments of evidence, producing interpretations of scientific work that yield claims about scientific ontology, and claims regarding matters about which it would be better to be agnostic instead.
    — Chakravartty, 1308-9

    For Chakravartty, examples of families of epistemic stances include:

    Deflationary stances, which are cautious about whether or how we can describe a mind-independent world;

    Empiricist stances, which question whether theorizing beyond the observable phenomena should be a basis for warranted belief;

    More metaphysically inclined stances, which regard scientific method as justifiable, and allowing deductions, laws, and generalizations of the familiar type used in traditional science – in short, scientific realism.

    And perhaps there are more. But Chakravartty asks, Do we want to say that (at least) all three of these stances are rationally permissible (“subject to some minimal constraints of internal consistency and coherence”)? He characterizes such a position as “stance voluntarism.”

    According to this view, there are various rational positions we could choose to take, various different weights we could give to the factors that comprise an epistemic stance. In particular, we want to “chart a course between the poverty of excessive caution and the pitfalls of excessive zeal” (Chakravartty 2017) in deciding what warrants our belief. And, crucially, there is no further court of (strictly) rational appeal. Having chosen an epistemic stance, one can deploy reason, logic, evidence, et al. to form judgments within that stance, and to continue to clarify the implications and use of that stance. But choosing the stance itself can never be a matter of rationality alone. This is why a stance is not so much believed (which would imply assenting to its truth) as adopted. This is also why, in Chakravartty’s view, disputes between realism and antirealism are rationally unresolvable. It’s important, though, to note that the realism/antirealism debate (which is the focus of Chakravartty’s paper) is only one place where the question of dueling epistemic stances arises. Similarly, the focus on scientific realism should not lead us to ignore the implications that the stance-voluntarism question has for realism more generally.

    This voluntarist position has to answer the objection made most recently by Christopher Pincock here (and in other places by other philosophers, of course). It is, in brief, that an epistemic stance that can, for instance, endorse scientific realism is made obligatory by a certain understanding of rationality. And this understanding (which, its proponents have to claim, is the only legitimate or defensible version) can be shown to rule out other epistemic stances as irrational. It is not the case that an epistemic stance is truly voluntary, as in “up to me,” on this view – or at least not a stance that claims to be rationally defensible. It is possible to show that choosing a non- or antirealist stance involves the chooser in self-contradiction and/or incoherence. This is unacceptable to anyone who wants to say that their chosen stance is rational. So, Pincock concludes, scientific realism is obligatory, because the epistemic stance that undergirds it is also obligatory. (It’s an interesting question whether he would agree that it is equally incoherent for a scientific antirealist to claim that their stance is voluntary.)

    Let’s clarify some terminology, starting with “obligatory” and “voluntary.” In this debate, an obligatory stance is one that must be chosen if the chooser wishes to be guided by reason – for it is reason itself that makes it obligatory. How might we recognize such a stance? As Pincock points out, some form of reductio could be appealed to, which purports to show that taking the opposite position, and regarding one’s (rational) stance as voluntary, leads to pragmatic incoherence. The attractiveness of this position, should it prove true, is that it asks for a very minimal agreement about what “being rational” consists of: coherence and non-contradiction. But more of this later.

    In contrast, then, to an obligatory epistemic stance, a voluntary stance would be one that can be either chosen or not, without violating some obvious constraint on rational procedure. I believe it is key to the argument that there are supposed to be no such stances. To be rational at all is to be obligated to one and only one epistemic stance.

    Continuing with terminology: Pincock uses the term “theoretical reasons” to contrast with “practical reasons” for choosing an epistemic stance. He reads Chakravartty as saying that there are no theoretical reasons for such a choice; all stance choices must be motivated by practical reasons. Here is one argument Pincock makes about this:

    The key problem is that [Chakravartty’s] argument assumes that there are no theoretical reasons for one’s values. This is a contentious and problematic assumption. Most people assume that at least some values can be supported by theoretical reasoning. . . . I would maintain that the same point applies to epistemic values, such as the value one attaches to having a scientific explanation. That is, just as people should adopt some moral values (and not others), people should also adopt some epistemic values (and not others). — Pincock, 5

    But is it clear that the stance voluntarist must rule out theoretical reasons for their choice of stance? Notice that Pincock has reduced the factors Chakravartty lists as part of an epistemic stance to a single term: “values”. Are we sure that Pincock is not begging the question against the stance voluntarist, by insisting that the only candidates we might adopt to serve as non-obligatory “value” reasons are non-rational? I myself don’t read Chakravartty as saying that. He isn’t declaring that a choice of stance is just “what I like.” He says that the stance voluntarist does have rational reasons, but the reasons are not therefore obligatory for everyone, nor are they the only reasons for choosing a particular stance. The coherence of that position -- essentially as I described it above in talking about voluntary stances -- is what must be investigated. Can there be rational reasons that don’t obligate everyone?

    This is a deep question. In some fields, valid reasons – rationality itself, it might seem – are indeed obligatory. If I demonstrate valid reasons for concluding that there is no highest prime, you had better assent to this, if you want to be rational. And I can claim that this has nothing to do with choices or “what I like” -- there is only one acceptable rational conclusion. Is committing to an epistemic stance like this? Are the “theoretical reasons” similarly constraining? Again, remember that once we’re operating within a particular epistemic stance, all kinds of things become rationally obligatory. The question here is a “level up” question – what about the adoption of the stance itself?

    How could Pincock show that the non-voluntarist position is the only rationally acceptable one? To do that, he would first have to begin by arguing for a certain specific view of what it means to be rational, again dealing with the question of what being rational obligates us to. Second, he would need to show that any “theoretical reason” produces obligatory positions on epistemic stances. It isn’t sufficient merely to demarcate “theoretical” from “practical” reasons, and claim that Chakravartty’s quite varied list of ingredients that go into choosing a stance are all non-theoretical. Pincock needs a tougher definition of “theoretical reason” than that. He would also have to show that a theoretical reason is always a compelling rational reason, not merely a non-practical reason, and this must be understood in terms of Pincock’s particular claim about what rationality entails (call this P-rationality). Once this identification of “theoretical” with “P-rational” is made, he could go on to show why theoretical reasons become obligatory.

    Chakravartty, in his turn, is almost certainly going to respond that Pincock’s version of “rational” is too constricted, and begs the question against him; that we shouldn’t equate all theoretical reasons with this constricted P-version; and thus there is ample room for voluntary theoretical choice of epistemic stances. “The very idea that a given stance must be rationally obligatory to be rationally chosen is precisely what stance voluntarism denies. . . . On the voluntarist view, rational choice and rational obligation are distinct concepts and cannot be run together.” (1312) That said, I believe Chakravartty would have to agree that there is no version of “rational” that would permit incoherence and self-contradiction – recall his “minimal constraints of internal consistency and coherence.” So if Pincock can indeed show that this must result from stance voluntarism, then Chakravartty’s position may be in trouble.

    I’ll end this first part with a few questions about the “level up” problem: “reasons for reasons”.

    Is the argument for something being true, and worthy of belief, within a given epistemic stance the same kind of argument we’d give for the stance itself being rationally obligatory? (In the debate between Chakravartty and Pincock, this is framed as a contrast between doxastic and epistemic stances.)

    Does one version of rationality pull itself up by its own bootstraps without recourse to a pragmatic-incoherence argument? (I’ll lay out Pincock’s incoherence argument in Part Two.)

    Does a rejection of stance voluntarism lead directly to scientific realism, or merely to the demand for obligatory reasons for adopting any stance?

    The debate about epistemic stances mirrors many familiar features of the debate about objectivity itself. So, for instance, when Thomas Nagel argues that reason must be given “the last word,” is he also denying stance voluntarism? When Nagel defends “a rationalist answer against what I shall call a subjectivist one” (The Last Word, 3), is he also defending a single version of rationality that it is obligatory to adopt?

    Pausing here, I invite comments about the debate so far: Is it clear what’s at stake? Are there further terminological questions we need to sharpen?
  • tim wood
    9.5k
    Sounds like hinge propositions, aka absolute presuppositions. As such approximately (at least) 100-year-old ideas from Wittgenstein and Collingwood respectively.
  • J
    1.1k
    Yes, definitely related. An oldie but goldie, for sure. Why do you suppose it's yet unresolved, and continues to get new expressions in contemporary phil?
  • T Clark
    14.3k
    In a recent paper, Anjan Chakravartty discusses the concept of “epistemic stances.” This idea is not new, but Chakravartty provides a good description of what such a stance would be:

    An epistemic stance is an orientation, a collection of attitudes, values, aims, and other commitments relevant to thinking about scientific ontology, including policies or guidelines for the production of putatively factual beliefs . . .

    A stance is not a claim about the world. Stances are not believed so much as adopted and exemplified in assessments of evidence, producing interpretations of scientific work that yield claims about scientific ontology, and claims regarding matters about which it would be better to be agnostic instead.
    — Chakravartty, 1308-9
    J

    As the saying goes, to a hammer, everything looks like a nail. A corollary might go - to a metaphysician, everything looks like metaphysics. I'll now stretch the truth by calling myself a metaphysician.

    What you and Chakravartty call "epistemic stances," I might call "metaphysical positions." Here's what R.G. Collingwood says about metaphysics in "An Essay on Metaphysics."

    "Metaphysics is the attempt to find out what absolute presuppositions have been made by this or that person or group of persons, on this or that occasion or group of occasions, in the course of this or that piece of thinking." — R.G. Collingwood - An Essay on Metaphysics

    A presupposition is an assumption that establishes the context for a philosophical or scientific discussion. Here's what Collingwood says about absolute presuppositions:

    "An absolute presupposition is one which stands, relatively to all questions to which it is related, as a presupposition, never as an answer."

    "Absolute presuppositions are not verifiable. This does not mean that we should like to verify them but are not able to; it means that the idea of verification is an idea which does not apply to them...."
    — R.G. Collingwood - An Essay on Metaphysics

    Reading your post, I was trying to figure out how what you are describing is different from what I am. They don't seem exactly the same, but very similar. I don't want to clutter up your thread with a discussion of the differences or similarities, but there is one aspect I think is worth mentioning.

    Having chosen an epistemic stance, one can deploy reason, logic, evidence, et al. to form judgments within that stance, and to continue to clarify the implications and use of that stance. But choosing the stance itself can never be a matter of rationality alone. This is why a stance is not so much believed (which would imply assenting to its truth) as adopted. This is also why, in Chakravartty’s view, disputes between realism and antirealism are rationally unresolvable. It’s important, though, to note that the realism/antirealism debate (which is the focus of Chakravartty’s paper) is only one place where the question of dueling epistemic stances arises.J

    A lot of what you've written here is consistent with what I think Collingwood might agree with some qualifications. I especially like "This is why a stance is not so much believed (which would imply assenting to its truth) as adopted." First, I don't think we typically choose our metaphysical positions, or whatever you call them. Unless real effort is put into them people are usually unaware of them.

    Also, to go back to my quote from Collingwood - "...absolute presuppositions have been made by this or that person or group of persons, on this or that occasion or group of occasions, in the course of this or that piece of thinking." You don't have to choose. It is appropriate to use different absolute presuppositions in different situations depending on what is the most useful point of view. Beyond that, they don't have to be, and usually aren't, adopted based on rational criteria.

    As I noted, I don't want to disrupt you discussion, so I won't take this any further.
  • J
    1.1k
    You haven't disrupted anything, no worries.

    A presupposition is an assumption that establishes the context for a philosophical or scientific discussion.T Clark

    I agree, this is in the same family as "epistemic stance," as used by Chakravartty and Pincock.
    (@tim wood, above, also noticed the resemblance to Collingwood.). One difference may lie in the idea of an "absolute presupposition," which I think is too strong. For Chakravartty, at least, an epistemic stance is tentative, flexible, and dependent on a lot more than what I think you're calling metaphysics. Really, as I read him, it isn't an assumption at all, but a carefully chosen "best practice." In the context of doing science, he wants an epistemic stance to walk the line between filtering out weak knowledge claims while not squelching ones that deserve a hearing. Pincock's interest in rational obligation may be a little closer to something absolute. But of course Collingwood points out that different absolute presuppositions may apply in different situations, so perhaps the difference is small.

    The debate I'm focusing on, though, is precisely whether this is a good characterization of what an epistemic stance (or presupposition, if you like) entails. Chakravartty would agree with Collingwood that such a stance is not chosen exclusively based on rational criteria, nor can it be defended that way. But Pincock disagrees. So would many others who believe that realism and objectivity are not optional but rather obligated by a certain understanding of rationality.

    I hope you find time to read the two papers. Your input would be welcome. But if not, I'll go on to fill out more of the debate within a day or two.
  • T Clark
    14.3k
    I hope you find time to read the two papers.J

    I read the paper you linked and I enjoyed it. The guy writes really well, which isn't the same as saying I understood everything he wrote. What he writes is familiar, but it's different enough from the way I usually talk about it that I get a bit lost. It feels like he's mixing metaphysics and science while I think of them as entirely different things. A metaphor I like is that metaphysics is the traffic laws, science is driving your car.

    Some thoughts.

    I agree, this is in the same family as "epistemic stance," as used by Chakravartty and Pincock.
    (@tim wood, above, also noticed the resemblance to Collingwood.). One difference may lie in the idea of an "absolute presupposition," which I think is too strong. For Chakravartty, at least, an epistemic stance is tentative, flexible, and dependent on a lot more than what I think you're calling metaphysics.
    J

    I was thinking something like this when I first read your OP. You quoted Chakravartty as saying "An epistemic stance is an orientation, a collection of attitudes, values, aims, and other commitments relevant to thinking about scientific ontology, including policies or guidelines for the production of putatively factual beliefs . . " That does seem broader and less stringent than what I usually think of as metaphysics. That's one of the things I was wrestling with as I tried to figure out how they compared.

    As for the article itself, what bothered me the most is that realism and antirealism are set up as mutually exclusive and incomprehensible. Fact is, you can use both. I come from science and engineering. When I deal with those types of issues, I generally toe the realist line, but I recognize that approach has limitations. One of the first discussions I started six or seven years ago addressed whether the idea of objective reality is a useful one.

    From a broader philosophical perspective, I'm definitely an anti-realist. I don't know if you've ever read any of my posts about Taoism. In Taoist cosmology, we bring the everyday world into existence by naming things, making distinctions. Boiling that down into a less mystical and esoteric sounding message, the world we humans see and know is constrained by our human nature - the physical, biological, genetic, and neurological nature of our bodies, established by evolution and development; and the cognitive/psychological nature of our minds, established by learning and the structure of our nervous system. There is significant overlap between those factors.

    I don't feel any conflict between those two ways of seeing things. I can have an intelligent, if limited, conversation about hard physics and also a philosophical discussion about Taoist principles.

    I'm not sure where to go from here or whether I have anything else to offer.
  • J
    1.1k
    Thanks for your thoughts on Chakravartty's paper -- I'm glad you were able to connect his ideas with your own perspective. "Where to go from here?" you ask. Well . . . now read the Pincock paper (also linked)! It is a direct response to Chakravartty.

    what bothered me the most is that realism and antirealism are set up as mutually exclusive and incomprehensible. Fact is, you can use both.T Clark

    This occurred to me too. If I had to make one overall criticism of analytic philosophy, it's the tendency to separate ideas into convenient binaries for purposes of discussion, ignoring what is actually done with those ideas in the real world. Pincock makes a strong case for why realism and anti-realism do have something fundamentally incompatible about them, however.

    whether the idea of objective reality is a useful one.T Clark

    I think both Chakravartty and Pincock would agree that it is useful. Pincock, though, would add that it has the additional virtue of being real or true.
  • Philosophim
    2.9k
    Its a good stab, but 'stances' can be greatly simplified to 'contexts'. The idea that there is one 'this is rational' context misses the point of language and identity. What is rational in one context may not be rational in another context. Prior to the discovery of oxygen, phlogiston theory was a rationally considered theory. With today's knowledge it will be absurd, and 200 years from now oxygen theory might seem laughable as it is replaced with a better one.

    If you want to know about knowledge within contexts, read here: https://thephilosophyforum.com/discussion/14044/knowledge-and-induction-within-your-self-context/p1 We create our own contexts and knowledge is essentially deduction within that context. With that we can rationally also figure out induction. I think this explains what you're asking far better than this theory here.
  • J
    1.1k
    So would Chakravartty's view be correct, and Pincock's incorrect, as you understand it? That is, Pincock would be wrong in trying to argue for a particular version of "rationality" that ought to be adopted, on pain of no longer being rational at all?

    Or perhaps I should ask, do you think there's a single version of what is rational -- and hence what should inform our epistemic stance -- when doing science?
  • Philosophim
    2.9k
    Or perhaps I should ask, do you think there's a single version of what is rational -- and hence what should inform our epistemic stance -- when doing science?J

    Yes. I note it in the paper I linked. First, use deductive knowledge based off of context, resources, and time. Where there are limitations, use inductions based off of hierarchy of induction. So in order of cogency, probability, possibility, plausibility, and irrational.
  • J
    1.1k
    OK. And would you say that's a voluntary epistemic stance, in Chakravartty's sense?
  • Philosophim
    2.9k
    OK. And would you say that's a voluntary epistemic stance, in Chakravartty's sense?J

    It depends on what you are trying to achieve. If you're trying to achieve the most logical outcome, then you should. If your goal is to justify something you want and you don't care about it, then no. For example, lets say I want to believe in God. Being truly rational may not allow me to justify that belief. So instead of choosing the most rational outlook, I choose something more subjective and emotional.

    Can I voluntarily decide to be rational vs less rational? Of course. There is nothing holding a person down requiring them to be rational. Lots of people hate it. They want what they want and they'll use any tactic to get it. There are of course consequences for being less rational in life, and a person has to decide if paying those consequences for being less rational is worth the outcome they want.
  • J
    1.1k
    It depends on what you are trying to achieve. If you're trying to achieve the most logical outcome, then you should.Philosophim

    This, I think, is close to Chakravartty's sense. He specifies "minimal constraints of internal consistency and coherence” -- so, broadly speaking, logical. In that sense, then, you're saying that such a stance is not voluntary or optional; we should choose it. How would you argue for that? Or do you think Pincock's position basically sets out that argument?
  • Philosophim
    2.9k
    This, I think, is close to Chakravartty's sense. He specifies "minimal constraints of internal consistency and coherence” -- so, broadly speaking, logical. In that sense, then, you're saying that such a stance is not voluntary or optional; we should choose it.J

    You should choose the most rational stance in X context if you are in X context. If you don't, then don't. Just clarifying there is nothing innate forcing anyone to choose anything.

    This voluntarist position has to answer the objection made most recently by Christopher Pincock here (and in other places by other philosophers, of course). It is, in brief, that an epistemic stance that can, for instance, endorse scientific realism is made obligatory by a certain understanding of rationality. And this understanding (which, its proponents have to claim, is the only legitimate or defensible version) can be shown to rule out other epistemic stances as irrational.J

    Again, its contextually dependent. Its irrational to be rational if you want a conclusion that is not rational. If you want a conclusion to be rational, then it is rational to be rational. And what is rational is based on the context of the knowledge and tools you have available to you at the time.
    How would you argue for that? Or do you think Pincock's position basically sets out that argument?J

    I think I have set it out straight clear and I really have no interest in what Pincock thinks. Comparing and contrasting two philosophers is way below my interest at this point. I care about arguments, not about what people might think or how they would defend something. If you think I'm in line with Pincock or against Pincock, great either way. Does the argument and point work? That's all that matters to me.
  • J
    1.1k
    OK. Since this thread focuses on comparing and contrasting two philosophers, I can see why it wouldn't interest you.
  • T Clark
    14.3k
    now read the Pincock paper (also linked)!J

    Boy, I tried. I found it impenetrable.

    I think both Chakravartty and Pincock would agree that it is useful. Pincock, though, would add that it has the additional virtue of being real or true.J

    As I understand it, the idea of objective reality is metaphysics. It's not our only choice of the way to see things, even for science. This is something I've discussed often since I joined the forum. I'm not the only one who sees things that way - it's not goofy philosophy. I'll take it further, I think reality and truth are also metaphysical concepts.

    Perhaps we've taken this as far as we can. Focusing on metaphysics rather than epistemology is taking us farther and farther from the OP.
  • J
    1.1k
    Focusing on metaphysics rather than epistemology is taking us farther and farther from the OP.T Clark

    I don't agree. What you say here is critical to the issues the OP raises. After all, Chakravartty himself refers to a realist commitment to scientific method as a "metaphysical stance." When you write, "It's not our only choice of the way to see things, even for science," you're coming to grips with the key point that separates Chakravartty and Pincock. So please stay on the thread if you're interested!
  • fdrake
    7k


    Great OP and interesting paper. Before I go off half cocked, I was wondering if Chakravartty or Pincock have any writings about how one might adapt one's values, or change stance, given evidence? I want to say roughly what I understand of stances so you can tell me if I'm hopelessly wrong.

    The construal of an epistemic stance, and indeed of epistemic values, seems to be {in the paper's words} "upstream" of matters of fact and questions of ontology, rather than "alongside" or possibly "downstream" of matters of fact and question of ontology.

    {Doxastic voluntarism} is not, I take it, what is at issue in debates concerning scientific ontology, where voluntarism pertains to the adoption of underlying epistemic stances; let us call this stance voluntarism. Here, there is no question of choice per se regarding what to believe, and certainly not in any way that severs connections to and considerations of evidence. A stance, recall,
    is an orientation comprising attitudes and policies relevant to assessing evidence; stances are thus at a remove from, or “upstream” from, the doxastic attitudes one may form regarding aspects of theories and models.
    Because the primary function of a stance is to distinguish domains of inquiry in which agents think evidence licenses belief from those where agnosticism seems more appropriate, adopting a stance suggests a much more innocent sense of “choice”: one reflecting an agent’s tolerances for epistemic risk. “Choice” in this context merely signals a recognition of the fact that there are rationally permissible alternatives, not that one can flip a switch and believe what one likes.
    — Resolving Debates about Scientific Realism, the Challenge From Stances

    I think this is highlighted by how to conceive of defeaters for claims in relationship to stances. By a defeater I mean any fact, whether empirical or a matter of reason, which has a modus tollens impact on a claim - by which the defeater may "defeat" the claim. A stance is "an orientation comprising attitudes and policies relevant to assessing evidence", which if I read it right, construes stances as hodge-podges of attitudes, intentions, implicit principles, explicit principles, social norms, behaviours and so on. It's some knowledge praxis and its rules. A stance doesn't judge matters of fact, it is a means by which matters of fact are judged - much like an assembly line for bikes can't be ridden as a bike. In that regard a commitment to a stance is an enactment of it.

    You could conceive of a defeater D for a claim E in a stance S as triple {D,E,S}, which says that "D would refute E in S were D true". That comprehends defeaters as relative to systems of belief and principles.

    As an example, consider a study of sample size 20 with a conclusion D that acts as a defeater for the claim E. Alice is quite conservative, and has "I will be agnostic about the conclusions of any study with sample size of 20 or less" as a principle. Bob, a bit of a cowboy, has the principle "I will be agnostic about the conclusions of any study with sample size 19 or less". Bob could revise their beliefs connected to E using D, Alice could not.

    You could also conceive of defeaters as having a more pervasive impact, that they might penetrate the supposed "upstream"-ness of epistemic stances from matters of fact and ontology. It could be that in light of some defeater D for E, any stance which allows belief or agnosticism toward D is compellingly refuted but not necessarily through modus tollens impact - D may "defeat" stances permitting E by providing generic reasons for updating conduct that preclude E. An upheaval of the epistemic terrain, as it were.

    An example there might be conservative Alice, who would never trust the scientific use of partially uninterpretable AI in scientific publications - and thus be agnostic about the conclusions of any paper using them. And cowboy Bob, who believes in the potential of AI and does not withhold belief on that basis. Alice and Bob would react differently to the relatively recent {almost total} solving of protein geometry given their base pair sequence by an AI, Alice would withhold belief, Bob would not.

    Then, the applications of that technology happen, and new effective antibiotics are developed with these quick to press designer proteins. If everyone ought act in accordance with Alice's prohibition on trusting any fruits of AI, no one would have jumped ahead to produce the antibiotics, and we would live in a world with more death and pain as well as less scientific discovery. Alice's beliefs would have hampered the discovery of more truths, and that would be one fact among others.

    Nevertheless Alice's beliefs have not been formally refuted in accordance with only the logical principles of their connection, she would need to change a stance defining principle - trust AI more. Which would be a belief about which methodologies are admissible. But that would render discoveries, facts, results - methodology - as potential changes for the admissibility of methodologies, and thus undermine a stance's construal as "upstream" from facts and matters of ontology.

    If I am not talking out of my arse, I see an angle of attack in the debate that uses something like an undermining of the fact/value distinction, only this case it's an undermining of the distinctions between fact/method/methodology/meta-methodology, by construing fact, method, methodology and meta-methodology as inferentially related. The flexibility that goes into defining what allows one to adopt or enact a stance seems to give such wiggle room.
  • Sam26
    2.8k
    Wittgenstein's hinges tend to be more primal or universal (thinking of prelinguistic convictions). E.g., I have hands or I'm an object separate from other objects. Although there is a close connection related to action. That said, I haven't studied any of these writings, so I don't want to be dogmatic about any of this.
  • J
    1.1k
    Great OP and interesting paper.fdrake

    I'm glad it engaged you.

    I was wondering if Chakravartty or Pincock have any writings about how one might adapt one's values, or change stance, given evidence?fdrake

    I don't know; I only know of these two philosophers from reading the cited papers. An important question, though. I would imagine that a stance voluntarist could give a convincing account of how they switched from one stance to another, given evidence. Someone like Pincock will have a much harder time, as they may have to actually deny that cogent evidence could arise. But notice what Pincock says toward the end of his paper: "A realist should not endorse . . . dogmatic loyalty to IBE [inference to the best explanation]. . . The only viable form of scientific realism is a cautious realism that responds appropriately to the historical record of success and failure for various modes of inference." We're left with wondering exactly how to interpret "appropriately", but the overall tone is not inflexible.

    The construal of an epistemic stance, and indeed of epistemic values, seems to be {in the paper's words} "upstream" of matters of fact and questions of ontology, rather than "alongside" or possibly "downstream" of matters of fact and question of ontologyfdrake

    Yes.

    A stance doesn't judge matters of fact, it is a means by which matters of fact are judged - much like an assembly line for bikes can't be ridden as a bike. In that regard a commitment to a stance is an enactment of it.fdrake

    Yes. Moving on to "defeaters":

    But that would render discoveries, facts, results - methodology - as potential changes for the admissibility of methodologies, and thus undermine a stance's construal as "upstream" from facts and matters of ontology.fdrake

    Your entire discussion of defeaters is very good, and I think puts the "upstream" problem in the right context, but let me zero in on the conclusion here. If an epistemic stance is supposed to tell us what we ought to believe, does that mean it has to be a one-way street? Or to stay with the river metaphor, does the justificatory stream flow in a single direction?

    Well, how do we cobble together our epistemic stance in the first place? If Chakravartty's characterization is largely correct, it's a combination (hodge-podge?!) of factors, many of which are undoubtedly traveling "upstream" from the downstream events and evidence of our lives. At a certain point, we find we have a stance, however tentative. So the question is, does this stance now put up a kind of dam against any pesky evidentiary salmon that wants to swim upstream with new information that could put the stance itself into question?

    I think this depends on how deep the epistemic commitments go. Someone like Pincock probably wants to say that some elements that comprise the commitments are irreversible, on pain of irrationality or incoherence. Your example of conservative Alice and cowboy Bob, however, doesn't seem nearly that bedrock. Couldn't a scientific realist make room for both Alice and Bob in the Temple of Reason? After all, neither one is questioning realism per se. They just have different risk tolerances when it comes to beliefs. The stance voluntarist will say that such tolerances are (largely) unresolvable by rational argument, which is not to say they aren't motivated by theoretical reasons. The stance-obligatorist (if that's a word) will deny this, and perhaps argue that even the difference between 19 and 20 represents the difference between what is rationally obligatory, given a realist stance, and what is incorrect.

    This of course relates to your question about how a stance might change. My stance provides certain criteria for what counts as evidence tout court. Does that include evidence for the stance itself? Can the very stance that certifies item D as evidence in good standing be changed as a result of D, when what D defeats is some element of stance E? But then, that might mean D wasn't evidence in good standing after all, if the new stance no longer recognizes D as valid. This is a truly headache-producing circle, and I don't know the answer, other than to say that it motivates my question in the OP, "Is the argument for something being true, and worthy of belief, within a given epistemic stance the same kind of argument we’d give for the stance itself being rationally obligatory?"

    construing fact, method, methodology and meta-methodology as inferentially related.fdrake

    Yeah, that's what it would be if there's no "rigid rational" epistemic stance that can trump all others, and travel both upstream and downstream is permitted.

    The flexibility that goes into defining what allows one to adopt or enact a stance seems to give such wiggle room.fdrake

    I'm leaning that way too but let me give Pincock his say in Part Two.
  • fdrake
    7k
    Yeah, that's what it would be if there's no "rigid rational" epistemic stance that can trump all others, and travel both upstream and downstream is permitted.J

    I think the following is an option - upstream, downstream and alongside relations are allowed between stances and evidence, it just so happens that there is One True Dialectic that correctly links them. The One True Dialectic would have to fully understand how it related to all of its own principles, and conditions of revising them. I don't believe such a thing exists, but I would want an argument to rule it out.

    Or to stay with the river metaphor, does the justificatory stream flow in a single direction?J

    does this stance now put up a kind of dam against any pesky evidentiary salmon that wants to swim upstream with new information that could put the stance itself into question?J

    I don't have a good answer in terms of the paper. I just want to throw things together and look at the muck they make. I think this works as a criticism of the paper, because its argument rests on making a few sharp distinctions that instead seem quite blurry. Namely, a stance distinguishes itself from object level factual claims, and that it does so by being "upstream" from them. And also it distinguishes stances from collections of attitudes
    *
    {or at least doxastic attitudes?}
    toward object level claims. They're construed more as means of properly assigning attitudes toward object level claims.

    In the final analysis, all anyone can do when confronted by conflict between epistemic stances is engage in a dialogue in which conflicting attitudes, values, aims, and policies relevant to assessing evidence can be revealed, compared, and considered. I submit that this is exactly what happens, ultimately, in debates between scientific realists and antirealists. It is what happens, ultimately,
    when experts testify in courts about the differences between teaching evolution and creationism in schools. To add to this dialogue the assurance that “I, not you, possess a uniquely rational epistemic stance” adds nothing of rhetorical or persuasive power. In contrast, to endeavor to elaborate, to explain, to scrutinize, and to understand the nature of opposing stances (to engage in what I call “collaborative epistemology” [2017a, 228])—and to encourage others, when our own stances appear to pass the tests of consistency and coherence, to see things our way, upon reflection—is to do our best. There is no insight into epistemic rationality to be gained by demanding more than this.

    The paper advances the idea that a selection mechanism might work on stances, and render some of them rationally impermissible and some rationally permissible. Above and beyond that, there is the possibility of there being a single stance which is obligate to hold {about some domain}. I mostly want to focus on the rhetoric in the above paragraph because I think it highlights something about the imaginative background of the argument.

    Stances are posited as separate - upstream - from the content their principles concern, and thereby the sentence "To add to this dialogue the assurance that..." works as a rebuke on the back of separating the stance's principles from their content, as such a declaration "adds nothing". It is this "adds nothing", that portrays the declaration of an epistemically privileged stance as extraneous, which pumps the intuition of separation set up prior.

    I think that's the core of the article's imaginative background on the matter. It cleaves the enactment of an epistemic stance from what it concerns, which could be read as cleaving how things are done from what's done, even though what's done influences how things are done through learning, and how things are done influences what's done through norms.

    Epistemic stances also seem modelled off of relatively static principles, specifically commitments toward certain classes of statements:

    In earlier work (op. cit., 207–14), I consider families of stances that seem especially
    influential in disputes about where to draw such lines between belief and agnosticism.
    Those sympathetic to deflationary stances, for instance, are generally wary of aspiring to describe a mind-independent world, which they may view as conceptually problematic or otherwise naïve; this leads to redescriptions of the project of scientific ontology in different terms and rejections of traditionally realist conceptions of truth and reference, as found in a variety of neo-Kantian, pragmatist, and quietist approaches to science. Empiricist stances also suggest a wariness of the more fulsome
    endorsements of scientific ontology associated with realism, questioning the necessity of acceding to demands for explanation of observable phenomena (or some other subset of scientific phenomena, closely linked to observation in some way) in terms of further, less immediately accessible phenomena, thereby resisting the idea that theorizing about things beyond the observable (etc.) need or should be
    regarded as a basis for warranted belief. More metaphysically inclined stances, in contrast with both deflationary and empiricist ones, suggest more optimistic takes on the efficacy of scientific methods and the force of explanation for warranting beliefs in more expansive ontologies of things inhabiting a mind-independent world.

    For example, "deflationary stances" typically are "wary" toward claims that contain reference to a "mind independent world". That tells you that a whole class of stances can be characterised by their {class of} relationship to a class of claims. I say "class of" relationships because there's going to be more than one way to be "wary". The models of stances above are all principally philosophical stances, which makes sense given the terrain, but it's worthwhile to compare this with the expert witness court comparison in the final paragraph's rhetorical flourish:

    I submit that this is exactly what happens, ultimately, in debates between scientific realists and antirealists. It is what happens, ultimately, when experts testify in courts about the differences between teaching evolution and creationism in schools

    while keeping in mind the author's comment about stances

    To sharpen the question at issue, let us note first that pseudoscientific theories—
    astrology, flat earth theory, homeopathy, and so forth—are not stances. They are bodies of putatively factual claims about the world.

    Even though both creationism and evolution are at least bodies of putatively factual claims about the world. It could be that teaching creationism and evolution might be more a matter of principle, but that still raises the question of how a body of putatively factual claims can ever be related to without the resultant interaction becoming in part matter of principle and of fact, thereby ending up in the circular muck we're in.

    It would then seem that the stance is secretly a list of propositions and attitudes toward them, rather than a means of assigning propositions to attitudes given a context. But that goes somewhat against the author's method of parrying an accusation of doxastic voluntarism:

    This is not, I take it, what is at issue in debates concerning scientific ontology, where voluntarism pertains to the adoption of underlying epistemic stances; let us call this stance voluntarism. Here, there is no question of choice per se regarding what to believe, and certainly not in any way that severs connections to and considerations of evidence. A stance, recall, is an orientation comprising attitudes and policies relevant to assessing evidence; stances are thus at a remove from, or “upstream” from, the doxastic attitudes one may form regarding aspects of theories and models. Because the primary function of a stance is to distinguish domains of inquiry in which agents think evidence licenses
    belief from those where agnosticism seems more appropriate, adopting a stance suggests a much more innocent sense of “choice”: one reflecting an agent’s tolerances for epistemic risk. “Choice” in this context merely signals a recognition of the fact that there are rationally permissible alternatives, not that one can flip a switch and believe what one likes. Clarifying the distinction between doxastic and stance voluntarism thus dissolves, in this context at least, Williams’s concern about engaging with reality in a serious way.

    What saved the author from the charge was a clean distinction between "an orientation comprising attitudes and policies relevant to assessing evidence" and "bodies of putatively factual claims about the world". But which contained examples of attitudes towards beliefs - deflationists are wary toward claims regarding mind independent worlds.

    I don't really know what to do with this, and I might be missing a lot of subtleties, but my suspicion is that the distinctions between stance and doxastic attitudes, and stance and object level claims, aren't as clear as the argument needs to go through.
  • J
    1.1k
    I don't really know what to do with this, and I might be missing a lot of subtleties, but my suspicion is that the distinctions between stance and doxastic attitudes, and stance and object level claims, aren't as clear as the argument needs to go through.fdrake

    Starting with your final thought . . . I agree. The more I reflect on both papers, the more I wonder whether Chakravartty and Pincock really have the same conception of what an epistemic stance is. Chakravartty gives a clear enough description, which I quoted, but we can see that, because he wants to present stance selection as a broad process involving many factors, he can't be precise about what is and isn't a stance, compared to a doxastic process within a stance. As we've noticed, merely using the "upstream/downstream" idea doesn't settle all the important questions about how that works. And it matters whether a stance is immune from "downstream" input.

    Pincock, in contrast, needs a stance to be largely independent of its subject matter, and determinable by rational ("theoretical") criteria alone. Is this even the same thing that Chakravartty describes? A stance, described thusly, results in a huge meta-commitment such as "realism." Whereas Alice and Bob don't seem to have such a disagreement. Their differing stances look much less philosophically weighty -- and that may be Chakravartty's point, in part.

    I think the following is an option - upstream, downstream and alongside relations are allowed between stances and evidence, it just so happens that there is One True Dialectic that correctly links them. The One True Dialectic would have to fully understand how it related to all of its own principles, and conditions of revising them. I don't believe such a thing exists, but I would want an argument to rule it out.fdrake

    Great. Such a dialectic would presumably be capable of resolving -- or explaining away -- that nasty circle I described, in which a defeater changes a stance, in turn putting into question whether the defeater was legitimate evidence. I'd be very interested in Pincock's take on this: Does non-voluntarism about epistemic stances mean that there must be such a dialectic?

    The paper advances the idea that a selection mechanism might work on stances, and render some of them rationally impermissible and some rationally permissible. Above and beyond that, there is the possibility of there being a single stance which is obligate to hold {about some domain}.fdrake

    Yes. It's important to remember that Chakravartty is not an "anything goes" guy. He certainly believes that some epistemic stances would be ill-chosen, on grounds of irrationality.

    . . . the core of the article's imaginative background on the matter. It cleaves the enactment of an epistemic stance from what it concerns, which could be read as cleaving how things are done from what's done, even though what's done influences how things are done through learning, and how things are done influences what's done through norms.fdrake

    To use some old language, an epistemic stance is imagined as -- conceivably, if not in practice -- an a priori commitment, an armchair commitment that could be determined without recourse to any questions about "what it concerns." The appeal would be strictly to the "how," the process, rather than what that process is working with. We could even go so far as to call it an analytic understanding of epistemology. (Or is this way too strong for Chakravartty, who is very concerned with contexts?) For a non-voluntarist like Pincock, this becomes an appeal to rationality itself, which on this understanding will dictate our epistemic stance.

    But, as you point out, this immediately seems to lead to some inconsistencies about what's a factual claim and what's a criterion for a factual claim. Granting that creationism is incorrect, is this because it is a false factual claim, or is it better characterized as a false conclusion based on an epistemic stance that is much too liberal in what counts as evidence? In other words, do the creationist and the evolutionist even agree on what counts as a factual claim -- do they share the same epistemic stance about this? I would say they do not, meaning that their disagreement is in part about stances, not just the facts on the ground. They will have different understandings of how to determine what a "fact" is. And this is where Pincock's realism comes in. He would of course claim that their understandings are not merely different; one is correct, the other ludicrously wrong.

    It would then seem that the stance is secretly a list of propositions and attitudes toward them, rather than a means of assigning propositions to attitudes given a contextfdrake

    I know what you mean. If a non-voluntarist is going to claim that they have a rationally/theoretically mandatory epistemic stance, they will be asked their reasons for believing this. Will the reasons they give be the same kind of reasons that two people would give who share an epistemic stance but disagree on a particular scientific interpretation? This is hard to understand. And it tempts us to say that all this talk of stances is really a way of justifying some core propositions about method or process which are believed/disbelieved/held as uncertain, not merely "adopted." We want to link propositions with these same attitudes within an epistemic stance -- that's the whole point of having one -- but where are we standing before the stance? What's the further argument that there are worse and better (maybe even obligatory) reasons for enacting the stance?

    There's a lot more in what you wrote that is interesting and worth pursuing, but I'll stop here. Since this question of what might make an epistemic stance attractive or even obligatory keeps showing up as central, I really should write Part Two, which concerns Pincock's incoherence argument. So I'll try to do that fairly soon.
  • T Clark
    14.3k
    An example there might be conservative Alice, who would never trust the scientific use of partially uninterpretable AI in scientific publications - and thus be agnostic about the conclusions of any paper using them. And cowboy Bob, who believes in the potential of AI and does not withhold belief on that basis. Alice and Bob would react differently to the relatively recent {almost total} solving of protein geometry given their base pair sequence by an AI, Alice would withhold belief, Bob would not.

    Then, the applications of that technology happen, and new effective antibiotics are developed with these quick to press designer proteins. If everyone ought act in accordance with Alice's prohibition on trusting any fruits of AI, no one would have jumped ahead to produce the antibiotics, and we would live in a world with more death and pain as well as less scientific discovery. Alice's beliefs would have hampered the discovery of more truths, and that would be one fact among others.
    fdrake

    My standard complaint about philosophical thought experiments is that they are usually simplistic and unrealistic. Yes, I mean you Trolly Problem. I don't think the way you've laid this out represents how people actually use data. Here's how it would actually work - at least in my imagination. Alice and Bob work together at a pharmaceutical company. They're doing research to identify new candidates for testing as antibiotics. The goal of their work is to prepare a list ordered in terms of the probability that a cost-effective drug can be developed - which are most likely to make the company money. To do that, they search through relevant publications and other sources and come up with a list of possibilities.

    Candidates are then evaluated using various criteria including sample size and whether the data source is prepared using AI input, but also cost to manufacture, existence of similar drugs, potential for innovation, possible patent conflicts, and lots of other things I don't know about. Alice and Bob then get together and negotiate the ordering of the list based on each person's epistemic priorities. Perhaps it would be silly to reject data based on one arbitrary standard, but it might make a lot of sense to apply a standard probabilistically as part of a comprehensive evaluation process.

    In my experience, discussions like this one often miss the point by focusing on rigid and unrealistic processes for determining what is a fact and what isn't.
  • Joshs
    6k
    Reading the debate between Chakravarrty and Poncock on epistemic stances and rationality, I am drawn to the critters of no try realism and anti-realism offered by figures such as Fine, Davidson, Brandom and McDowell. Joseph Rouse explains:

    ​Arthur Fine has prominently advanced a first challenge to all sides of the realist debates in a series of papers advocating the “Natural Ontological Attitude”, by asking what these debates are about. For example, they might be understood as advocating alternative goals for scientific inquiry (truth, empirical adequacy, instrumental reliability, advancing social interests, and the like). Realists and anti-realists attribute such goals to the sciences as an interpretation that “makes better sense” of scientific practices and achievements. Fine offers a trenchant reply:
    Science is not needy [for interpretation] in this way. Its history and current practice constitute a rich and meaningful setting. In that setting, questions of goals or aims or purposes occur spontaneously and locally.
    Michael Williams makes a similar argument in epistemology more generally, challenging the belief that “there is a general way of bringing together the genuine cases [of knowledge] into a coherent theoretical kind”, such that one can make a general case for realist or anti-realist interpretations of knowledge claims.

    Another way to dissolve the realism question highlights a problematic commitment to the independence of meaning and truth. Anti-realists are evidently committed to such independence, because they endorse the possibility of understanding what scientific claims purport to say about the world, while denying the kind of access to what the world is “really” like needed to determine whether those claims are “literally” true. We can supposedly only discern whether claims are empirically adequate, instrumentally reliable, paradigmatically fruitful, rationally warranted, theoretically coherent, or the like. Realists nevertheless agree that understanding theoretical claims and determining whether they are correct are distinct and independent achievements.

    For realists, it is a significant achievement to determine, for some scientific theory or hypothesis, that this claim, with its semantic content independently fixed, is true. If the determination of the truth or falsity of a claim were entangled with the interpretation of its content, however, such that what the claim says was not determinable apart from those interactions with the world through which we assess its truth, then realists would be unable to specify the claims (i.e., the contents of those claims) about which they want to be realists. Anti-realists in turn could not pick out their preferred proximate intermediary (perceptual appearances, instrumental reliability, social practices or norms) without invoking the worldly access they deny.

    ​Donald Davidson (1984) developed a classic criticism of this assumption and the realist and anti-realist positions that presuppose it. Davidson argued that the only way to justify an interpretation of what a claim says is to show that this interpretation maximizes the truthfulness and rationality of the entire set of beliefs and desires attributed to a speaker in conjunction with that interpretation. Otherwise, any attribution of false beliefs to the speaker would be justifiably open to a response that attributes the error to the interpretation rather than to the claims interpreted. Only against the background of extensive understanding of what is true can we also understand the objective purport and content of beliefs and utterances. Davidson rightly concluded that “Nothing, no thing, makes our sentences or theories true: not experience, not surface irritations, not the world...”
  • J
    1.1k
    I am drawn to the critters of no try realism and anti-realismJoshs

    I'm dying to know what your software misunderstood here! :grin:

    The passage you offer is very on-point. In the OP, I only devoted a single sentence to Chakravartty's idea that stance voluntarism would explain why the realism-antirealism debate can never be resolved. But this is an important claim he wants to make -- one that Pincock would certainly have to deny.

    The reasons offered by Fine et al. are in a similar vein, but not identical. What I think they have in common with Chakravartty's viewpoint is the idea that the desideratum of "resolving a disagreement" between two epistemic stances is, on analysis, incoherent.

    For realists, it is a significant achievement to determine, for some scientific theory or hypothesis, that this claim, with its semantic content independently fixed, is true. If the determination of the truth or falsity of a claim were entangled with the interpretation of its content, however, such that what the claim says was not determinable apart from those interactions with the world through which we assess its truth, then realists would be unable to specify the claims (i.e., the contents of those claims) about which they want to be realists.

    This passage in particular fits with what @fdrake and I were discussing. I bolded the phrase about semantic content as independently fixed because it's a version of the question, Can we really separate "upstream" from "downstream" input in a neat way that maintains a distinction between epistemic and doxastic stances? The rest of the passage plays this out: If "what the claim says was not determinable apart from those interactions with the world through which we assess its truth," then interpretation and truth-value are viciously circular. It's a bit like the creationist/evolutionist example. Once the interpretation of terms like "fact" or "evidence" become dependent on an epistemic stance, we have to look for an interpretative truth that is outside the stance itself. How do we find it? Oddly, this could be considered an argument in favor of either the realist or the pragmatist position!
  • Joshs
    6k
    I am drawn to the critters of no try realism and anti-realism
    — Joshs

    I'm dying to know what your software misunderstood here
    J

    Supposed to be ‘I am drawn to the critique of both realism and anti-realism’.

    That’s what I get for doing all of my composing on an iphone while hiking.
  • fdrake
    7k
    about method or process which are believed/disbelieved/held as uncertain, not merely "adopted." We want to link propositions with these same attitudes within an epistemic stance -- that's the whole point of having one -- but where are we standing before the stance? What's the further argument that there are worse and better (maybe even obligatory) reasons for enacting the stance?J

    I think it's upstreams all the way down.

    I know what you mean. If a non-voluntarist is going to claim that they have a rationally/theoretically mandatory epistemic stance, they will be asked their reasons for believing this. Will the reasons they give be the same kind of reasons that two people would give who share an epistemic stance but disagree on a particular scientific interpretation? This is hard to understand. And it tempts us to say that all this talk of stances is really a way of justifying some core propositions about method or process which are believed/disbelieved/held as uncertain, not merely "adopted." We want to link propositions with these same attitudes within an epistemic stance -- that's the whole point of having one -- but where are we standing before the stance? What's the further argument that there are worse and better (maybe even obligatory) reasons for enacting the stance?J

    I had missed the possibility that, yes, while stances and beliefs about matters of fact consist of intentions toward claims, they might consist of different classes of intentions toward those claims. A stance might solely consist of intentions toward claims regarding evidence regarding putatively factual claims, and the object level discourse would consist of intentions toward some domain of putatively factual claims.

    I think that's quite artificial though. Presumably a claim like "some properties are mind independent" is putatively factual even if it can't be determined as true or false, and a claim like "I am wary of claims involving the phrase "mind independence"" is object level in discourse about realism vs anti-realism, since it's an expression in it. I think this is clearer with Alice and Bob out in the wild, as @T Clark was saying. A dispute between Alice and Bob regarding sample size 19 vs 20 wouldn't just be about whether sample size 19 or 20 was good, it would be about whether it is reasonable to believe 19 or 20 is the minimum one to allow study results to update your beliefs. As in, they would explicitly be negotiating what attitudes are appropriate to hold toward claims, and what means of forming those attitudes are appropriate in context.

    An IRL example of a thresholding dispute I have seen regarding sample size was about whether 1, 2 or 3 additional data points was "most optimal" to disentangle two hypotheses which seemed reasonable given prior collected data. Each data point was very costly to elicit, and there were diminishing returns on the discriminatory power. We stopped at 2, since a compelling reason seemed to be that getting 90% of the benefit of 3 for a 33% saving was worth it, and 2 gave twice the discriminatory power of 1. We could equally have said "go for three it's the most likely to make what we've done before worthwhile cost be damned" or "go for 1, we can safely deprioritise testing this hypothesis from the data, and you need funding for the follow up experiment", what do you believe and why do you believe it, what optimised discovery and what did we have resources for were already part of the object level discourse. Which is to say, the IRL dispute went beyond the putatively factual into our values as scientists with quite limited funding. Or - there was no way to organise the putatively factual, the methodological concerns, and our values in a hierarchical fashion. There was no upstream or downstream.
  • J
    1.1k
    I think it's upstreams all the way down.fdrake

    Maybe I'm taking this too far, but is this another way of saying "We are blank slates, and can only learn from experience" i.e. empiricism? Are there some faculties of mind which start "upstream", and are not created by input from downstream? Huge question, of course, but a serious explanation for how an epistemic stance is chosen must have a tentative answer, I think.

    A dispute between Alice and Bob regarding sample size 19 vs 20 wouldn't just be about whether sample size 19 or 20 was good, it would be about whether it is reasonable to believe 19 or 20 is the minimum one to allow study results to update your beliefs.fdrake

    OK. And how do we want to fill in "good"? Presumably with something stronger than "reasonable to believe for purposes of updating beliefs through study results." What might that be? This is a good (sorry!) question to ask a realist.

    An IRL example of a thresholding dispute . . .fdrake

    Very helpful.

    there was no way to organise the putatively factual, the methodological concerns, and our values in a hierarchical fashion. There was no upstream or downstream.fdrake

    Are you sure? Didn't you end up doing precisely that? Or maybe I'm reading "hierarchical" differently from you. I'm thinking you could have (and probably had to) give reasons for what you decided to do, and in explaining them, you'd implicitly be indicating the hierarchy that wound up prevailing. But I could be way off.
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