European boots on the ground at this stage of the war is courting disaster. — Tzeentch

There's historic precedent without it leading to disaster. So what disaster are you thinking of?

Pragmatism and opportunism have bred terrorism and antagonistic views across the world against the West; let their hatred pour over the USA idiot in charge - the EU should leverage that undercurrent and position itself as a trustworthy partner not out to police the world but to facilitate cooperation and peace. — Benkei

I'm quite surprised that through all this I've felt a certain amount of increased energy. In the last Trump run, things just felt like geopolitical depression, but this time he went so far that Europe seems to collectively wake up to a new kind of elevated spirit.

If it goes on like this, it would end with a collective "fuck the US" and at that point I'm not sure the US will be able to get back to the relations until they crawl back on their knees.

We can argue that the economic power of the US is too large for this to happen, but if Trump takes it too far there's not gonna be a choice. And if the industry and collaboration across Europe increases and reaches a point of self-suficiency it didn't have before, we're not really gonna rely on the US even past this phase of toddler politics Trump wallows in.

Trump is effectively just operating on "the art of the deal". He's pushing everyone in order to own any deal. Europe, at the moment, is trying to play by his tune and I think political leaders in the EU need to wake up to the fact that Trump doesn't surrender to anything if there's nothing to lose. He will push until he gets pushed back.

So even if there are risks involved with going against Trump, I think Europe should just give him the fucking finger, even if that may crash the market a bit. Because that crash may lead to a boom when native industries start to form stronger trade deals within the EU.

A key point that fuels industry is diversity, it's proven in so many research papers that anyone disputing it is just ignorant. And the EU has more diversity than the US due to the fact its a union of nations rather than federal states. Increasing the free movement and industry within, beyond the current operation, may lead to an industrial boom. The US, even with immigration included, is too inbred into patriotic nationalism to function on gains in diverse thinking. And the EU has been too dependent on the US to seek collaboration with their neighbors.

I think there's just a matter of time before the EU organizes a European military, a federal investigation agency (akin to the FBI), joint industries spread across nations rather than centralized in specific nations etc.

And I kind of feel ok with how things are going in this regard. The war and Russia is the key area of risk and that's the only reason I'm worried; but outside of that, it's kind of refreshing to see European leaders being invigorated to collaborate more rather than less. The US essentially pushes us away from Brexit mentalities and that is a good thing.

Let's just tariff back against the US and they'll find out just how much trade is actually benefiting the US. I'd say, let the MAGA cult and Trump supporting voters of the US rot until they get rid of toddler politics. Let us drink fine, but through better trade, less expensive French and Italian wine while the US citizens grow fat and stupid on suger and suger-replacing chemicals. Let our EU regulations safeguard the citizens so they can live decent lives while the US citizens die from infections out of losing healthcare or die from not taking vaccines because Kennedy told them so.

Let the US suffer - If the US abandon us, then let's abandon the US. Why should we care for the stupid toddlers that vote and run that broken nation?

Soon, the dept crisis will swallow the US economy and if Europe builds enough security against that downfall, we will win the art of the deal in the end.

Well, it puts Europe on war footing with Russia, for one. Right when Europe is at the weakest point it has ever been since the end of WW2, in the process of being abandoned by its principal strategic ally, and Russia having the most practically experienced military in the world and strong alliance partners.

Meanwhile, the US is obviously reconsidering its stance towards Europe, which could very well mean that its interests are becoming diametrically opposed to those of Europe. (In the sense that if they cannot control Europe, they will seek to weaken it or even break it up).

Ukraine becoming a giant blackhole for money and military hardware, war between a weak Europe and a strong Russia that could potentially go nuclear? Add Uncle Sam's capricious meddling into the mix, and who knows where that might end.

To top it off, we don't even know what will happen to Ukraine when the Americans leave. Who knows who will be pulling the strings a year from now? It could be FSB agents for all we know.


I fully agree that Europe should start moving towards a situation where its security vis-á-vis Russia is safeguarded, but Europe is way too weak currently to start pretending like that is already a reality.

Europe is too geopolitically ignorant at this point in time to get itself into that type of trouble.

Ukraine becoming a giant blackhole for money... — Tzeentch

It will no longer be a black hole when gas contracts are signed and effective again. Be patient: We’ve been holding on for three years. The key is to resist until we get a better agreement to Europe's interests.

Well, it puts Europe on war footing with Russia, for one. — Tzeentch

We are on a war footing already!

I don't think so.

You named cyber attacks and election meddling earlier as an indication that we are, but that's nothing we haven't done before, and little more than a tit-for-tat for our involvement in the Ukraine war.

Consider that the Poles have definitively said they will not put boots on the ground in Ukraine. They're arguably the nation that stands to lose most as a result of a mismanagement of the Ukraine conflict. They don't want to put boots on the ground because they know that all it will do is move Europe closer to war.

I’m curious where Europeans get the idea that Russia will invade the rest of Europe. I can’t find anything that bolsters this claim. Unlike Ukraine, ethnic Russians aren’t being ethnically-cleansed anywhere else in Europe, so it doesn’t make any sense that Russia would attack.

It's the type of war rhetoric that's repeated ad nauseam by the Trans-Atlantic clique that permeates the top of European politics. Propaganda, in other words.

I figured as much.

being ethnically-cleansed — NOS4A2

Cute when echoing old Kremlin lines (again). ;)

Kremlin lines. Kremlin talking-points. You can gauge the depths of the anti-Trump mind by how quickly it hits this basement floor.

, I wasn't quoting Trump, but rather you. Ya' know, parroting old Kremlin crap is kind of telling, not the best (but you did manage to attract a confirmation of sorts). ;) Anyway, nevermind, since this is now shifting to mere mudslinging.

The problem is the "Kremlin talking-points" schtick is never proven. That's particularly difficult to do in any case because such talking points have been roundly censored around the globe and most of us don't speak Russian. You won't quote whom or what I'm parroting, for example. You can't; that's because it isn't an observation of reality. Rather, it's a mental stop-gap that permits you to stop thinking once the cognitive dissonance sets in.

Anyways, like you said, we shouldn't sling mud. Cheers.

Those are the ones reported, but it's much more. For instance: https://www.theparliamentmagazine.eu/news/article/hybrid-threats-russias-shadow-war-escalates-across-europe?utm_source=perplexity

How is that beyond the scope of what is expected? Did you expect the Russians to sit there quietly while we arm Ukraine to the teeth and encourage them to tread their red lines, attempt to enact regime change, inflict a strategic defeat, weaken it permanently, break it apart, etc. ?

Errr... sabotage is only "permitted" in war. There's no "let's do a little so it isn't war". Sabotage means war otherwise they are crimes against humanity, which you can answer with armed force. So yes, we're at war with Russia, whether you consider that within the expected scope is just an opinion.

As to arming Ukraine; that's perfectly legal and doesn't constitute war. Countries sell arms to each other all the time.

Russia having the most practically experienced military in the world and strong alliance partners. — Tzeentch

And having lost a lot of equipment, basically capable of making quite localized attacks. Perhaps several years of a cease-fire + sanctions put off, it would be totally different.

To top it off, we don't even know what will happen to Ukraine when the Americans leave. — Tzeentch

Ukrainians have resources for few months to half a year. That's it. Or Europe would really get it's act together. And they might, even if you don't want them to do that.

Like Ursula von den Leyen is purposing:

EU chief Ursula von der Leyen on Tuesday, March 4, presented a five-part plan to mobilize some €800 billion for Europe's defense – and help provide "immediate" military support for Ukraine after Washington suspended aid. "A new era is upon us," the European Commission president said in a letter presenting the plan to EU leaders, two days before a summit aimed at cementing joint action on support for Ukraine and European security longer term. "Europe faces a clear and present danger on a scale that none of us has seen in our adult lifetime," she wrote, as she outlined options for funding a European defense surge.

"'ReArm Europe' could mobilize close to €800 billion of defense expenditures for a safe and resilient Europe," she told reporters in Brussels as she outlined the contents of her plan.

With €800 billion you can help Ukraine a lot. And start replacing the weaknesses that you have for relying on the untrustworthy ally.

The idea that Russia is so strong and European countries so weak is just this mental barrier that we have in our minds. Because many Europeans don't simply believe in themselves.

Why would you point to a technicality to consider Europe and Russia to be at war, when clearly in practical terms we are not at war?

Foregoing practical realities in favor of a 'legal' technicality over a matter of this gravity is something that I'm sure most international law scholars would scoff at. It's so contrived that it almost seems you want us to be at war with Russia. Do you have any idea what the consequences of that would be? You'll be the first to volunteer for the trenches, I presume?

Besides, do you then believe NATO declared war on Russia when they bombed Nord Stream?

Or Europe would really get it's act together. And they might, even if you don't want them to do that. — ssu

I would prefer Europe to get its act together without getting lured into a cataclysmic war with Russia, thank you very much.

Unelected Queen Ursula and the Trans-Atlantic clique are the morons who got us here in the first place. They know their political lives will be cut short if they have to make a 180 on Ukraine. That's why they're so eager for more crisis.

Anyway, none of this matters.

There will be peace in Ukraine, and Europe won't be going to war with Russia, no matter how hard some disgruntled intellectuals might find it to swallow their words.

If you're eager for more blood, go volunteer for the Ukrainian Foreign Legion while you still can.

I would prefer Europe to get its act together without getting lured into a cataclysmic war with Russia, thank you very much. — Tzeentch

You need a strong military and the will to fight the aggressor to have real deterrence. Appeasement will bring that cataclysmic war with Russia. Only strong deterrence does literally what it means: deters Russia. Weakness and appeasement will only raise the interest of Putin.

Russia invaded Ukraine because it saw the country as weak. All the intelligence people (that Putin later fired) gave that impression that it would be as easy as annexing Crimea. That Ukrainian military wouldn't put up a fight, that a Russian proxy leader could be installed quickly to rest of Ukraine as Novorossiya would be carved up was the idea. It would be as successful as the dash for Crimea. Or like Operation Danube, from history.

There will be peace in Ukraine, and Europe won't be going to war with Russia, no matter how hard some disgruntled intellectuals might find it to swallow their words. — Tzeentch

Europe doesn't have to go to war with Russia. Europe can assist Ukraine. If they only would believe in themselves. Europe holds the cards here as Ukraine does. Not Trump. But Putin can simply continue the war too. He isn't been pressured at all.

If you're eager for more blood, go volunteer for the Ukrainian Foreign Legion while you still can. — Tzeentch

I know some of them. They are highly respected in our military and with our reserves as they bring valuable insight on the actual fighting capabilities of the Russian forces.

They know their political lives will be cut short if they have to make a 180 on Ukraine. — Tzeentch

Well, working for Putin will cause that, because people at least in the Nordics, Baltics and Eastern Europe do see Putin as a threat. It's called democracy, you know.

What's going to happen is that a peace treaty will be signed and Trump will take credit for it. He increased uncertainty so that resolution became necessary. No one wants this war anymore, much less an expanded conflict.

Russia will be able to maintain its narrative with US approval and Ukraine and Europe will be able to maintain theirs. Truth be damned. This war is going to end.

This war is going to end. — Hanover

Russia has a tendency to want to annihilate the Ukrainian identity. It gives them joy to try. Ukrainians say no to this for some strange reason. I get the feeling this war might outlive all of us.

What's going to happen is that a peace treaty will be signed and Trump will take credit for it. — Hanover

Enabling Putin to fight his war against Ukraine by putting Ukraine in a tougher spot does actually quite the opposite. There is no reason for Putin to end this war now. Putin can see that he can have everything. Putin is on the road to get his objectives: Having Novorossiya, having a puppet Ukraine (or at least an Ukraine that has Finlandization), having the Atlantic alliance broken and have the US pushed down to be just a Great Power, not a Superpower anymore. All totally possible.

But live in your bubble where Trump is playing his 4D-chess, and enjoy the trade war he has started.

But live in your bubble where Trump is playing his 4D-chess, and enjoy the trade war he has started. — ssu

I don't subscribe to his being a genius as much as his being the 1,000 pound gorilla in the room. He gets to do what he wants because no one can stop him.

It's just bullying is all it is. He has the idea that playing nice concedes too much. That's how all ruthless people rule. I just think it will be more effective than you do.

It's just bullying is all it is. He has the idea that playing nice concedes too much. That's how all ruthless people rule. I just think it will be more effective than you do. — Hanover

How is that effective to you? Perhaps for your enemies like Russia and China, it's great. Putin can breathe now more easily.

I think Trump is simply shattering the Superpower status of the United States. And then he starts the most stupid trade war, which will hurt you. Perhaps Americans are indifferent to that or think it's a great thing. I don't.

Why so indifferent about it?

Anyway, none of this matters.

There will be peace in Ukraine, and Europe won't be going to war with Russia, no matter how hard some disgruntled intellectuals might find it to swallow their words.

Correct, but Europe must re-arm quickly, this is why many people are shouting about the Russian threat. It takes a lot of effort to overcome the inertia that you hit when it actually comes to working out and funding how you are going to do it.
Russia’s special military operation is a failure. It has weakened her capabilities, reduced her to a pariah and resulted in the opposite of what it was supposed to achieve.
Russia had an opportunity to become a respected partner and actor on the world stage when Relations between the West and Russia were good following the fall of USSR. But it was all squandered and thrown away by a tinpot dictator. All it required was a bit of humility in accepting that the smaller now independent states that used to be in the USSR had a right to autonomy. They will have to wait another generation, or two now before they can come in from the cold.

It's just bullying is all it is. He has the idea that playing nice concedes too much. That's how all ruthless people rule. I just think it will be more effective than you do. — Hanover

Oddly though, there's been no bullying of Russia at all. Russia seems to stand apart, with no demands made of them at all.

Russia had an opportunity to become a respected partner and actor on the world stage when Relations between the West and Russia were good following the fall of USSR. But it was all squandered and thrown away by a tinpot dictator. All it required was a bit of humility in accepting that the smaller now independent states that used to be in the USSR had a right to autonomy. — Punshhh

I wouldn't paint the picture all that rosy. The shock therapy approach had appalling consequences for the countries of the former USSR, notably in Russia. The treatment of the citizens of these countries was at times quite callous, and the West did abuse its post-1990s hegemony to weaken the principles of non-intervention.

Mistakes were definitely made. Of course, it does not follow that there is a direct line between those mistakes and the Putin regime. Other countries with similar problems made different choices.

Oddly though, there's been no bullying of Russia at all. Russia seems to stand apart, with no demands made of them at all. — Echarmion

I haven't come across any examples of Trump criticizing Putin. Anyone?