So you have no proof? — Tzeentch

Don't be ridiculous, the proof or disproof of any prediction whatsoever has to await the event or non-event.

So you have no proof? — Tzeentch

Proof of future events is not possible. You are not being reasonable.

Thank you for your support. :sparkle:

You are not being reasonable. — Amity

It's obviously you who is not being reasonable if you expect me to be satisfied with what little you have produced thus far.

Produce something better, or you may as well admit you've got nothing.

It looks to me as the choice for the US is between fascism and civil war. Either will produce a big decline in global influence and possibly economic collapse... — unenlightened

Thanks for providing a well-considered and informed analysis. A post of substance. Including UK politics and economic issues of decline and where that leads.

I think that the US is already being considered fascist and a rogue state by some.
Civil war is at the extreme end of the spectrum.
I don't think that is a choice, as such, it will be a case of escalation. Or the domino effect.
Nobody knows and that is what is scary.

It depends on the criminal...what actions he takes against the citizens who oppose his rule.
Who he will call traitors...

And an additional question to all those arguing that peace is unacceptable: how many of your sons and daughters have you sent to Ukraine in order to stop the second coming of the mustachioed gentleman?

if you expect me to be satisfied with what little you have produced thus far. — Tzeentch

It is unreasonable to expect proof of future events. As in another reply to you:

Don't be ridiculous, the proof or disproof of any prediction whatsoever has to await the event or non-event. — unenlightened

So you've got nothing. Very well. Glad we got that out of the way.

Carry on.

And an additional question to all those arguing that peace is unacceptable: how many of your sons and daughters have you sent to Ukraine in order to stop the second coming of the mustachioed gentleman? — Tzeentch

You need to stop right there. This is not the issue of the OP. Nobody is arguing that peace is unacceptable. You are trolling and this is unacceptable.

Weren't you a few comments ago implying peace is appeasement and Putin is Hitler?

I get that you're being painfully confronted with the shallowness of that view or what little evidence there exists to support it, but no need to pin the blame on me.

Nobody is arguing that peace is unacceptable. You are trolling and this is unacceptable. — Amity

But one might argue that when the robbers and rapists are in your house, then peace is indeed unacceptable. I remember a peace-loving reverend was placed in this exact position, and decided that peace was the best option on the basis that his daughter being raped was a recoverable assault. He came to bitterly regret that choice in the aftermath. And what is true of one's home can apply also to one's neighbours and thus to one's country.

Weren't you a few comments ago implying peace is appeasement and Putin is Hitler? — Tzeentch

No. Putin, Trump, and Hitler are fascist dictators. The evidence that their words are not to be trusted is overwhelming, and therefore a peace without security guarantees from other parties whose word is a little more trustworthy is merely a pause in the aggression while sanctions are lifted and the aggressor consolidates their illegal gains and prepares for round 2. No, round 3 it would be.

How true is that? Who said it? Is it just a good soundbite used by Bush/Obama? — Amity

I said it on behalf of my country, to Trump. In semi-jocular response to jorndoe's suggestion that we vote in their elections. Which, as a single state, would only give us 50 seats in Congress - 20-30 of them likely conservative - and two in the Senate. Not much of a bargain in return for our human rights, legal system, foreign policy, health care, oil, bauxite, water and lumber.

Appeasing Putin is not the end of it. — Amity
What proof do you have of that? — Tzeentch

Historical precedent is fairly persuasive. Not just Hitler: Alexander, Napoleon, Trajan, Victoria, Stalin, etc. Now Putin, spending his nation's resources and people to secure an insane legacy. Imperialists don't stop wanting more. For that matter, do you have any reason to think that Trump, who wanted Greenland, and now also wants Canada and Palestine, will stop if everybody gives in to him?

Pistorius wasn't so happy with Vance:

I am incandescent with rage right now. I feel sick to the stomach. A US Vice President stood today on the soil of where so many Americans gave their lives to defeat fascism in Europe. He delivered a disgraceful speech that spat on their graves. [...] — Truth Matters · Feb 14, 2025 · 3m:39s

Orlins is worried:

Trump’s post is a direct threat to the rule of law. This is a constitutional crisis in the making. Stay vigilant. — Eliza Orlins · Feb 16, 2025 · 1m:10s

I said it on behalf of my country, to Trump. In semi-jocular response to jorndoe's suggestion that we vote in their elections. Which, as a single state, would only give us 50 seats in Congress - 20-30 of them likely conservative - and two in the Senate. Not much of a bargain in return for our human rights, legal system, foreign policy, health care, oil, bauxite, water and lumber. — Vera Mont

Sorry, I just meant in that one election, and, given the campaign trails, and evidence that has since come about, I'd expect most Canucks (by far) to not vote P01135809. I was sort of joking, too. (Each province might be represented as a state?)

Historical precedent is fairly persuasive. — Vera Mont

So you're against peace.

After all, peace is appeasement, and Putin is Hitler.

What do you suggest? Letting the Ukrainians fight and die until they are defeated totally? Starting World War 3? I presume you are volunteering to be the first to enter the trenches?

After all, peace is appeasement, and Putin is Hitler. — Tzeentch

No one has said either of those things except you. Obviously, (except to you apparently), appeasement is not peace, but surrender. And equally obviously surrender is not a particularly good or necessarily peaceful outcome for those that do it.

And Putin is like Hitler in that he is an absolute and ruthless dictator with no respect for human life and huge territorial ambitions. And Trump is a wannabe.

What do you suggest? Letting the Ukrainians fight and die until they are defeated totally? Starting World War 3? I presume you are volunteering to be the first to enter the trenches? — Tzeentch

Dude I am 72 with epilepsy and a bad back. Only the Russian army would have me. I suggest We kick the US out of NATO for threatening to invade a fellow member, and invite Canada to join, and step up our military aid to Ukraine, because Russia is already falling apart militarily and economically, and is relying of N. Korea for both troops and weapons. Some super power! No, Ukraine cannot be totally defeated. Russia is overextended to the point that it cannot defend its own territory and has to send soldiers on crutches to the front line - as pathetic as it is disgusting.

This argument makes no sense.

If Putin has designs on all of Europe, but after a 5th of Ukraine Russia is already on its last legs, then what are we worried about? At this rate it'll take several decades to even get through Ukraine.

But the Ukrainians are evidently fine on their own. Russia is on the verge of collapse and basically sending 80 year olds to the frontline - presumably without rifles and ammunition.

Etc. etc.

(Needless to say, I think this is a completely wrong view of what the battlefield currently looks like, but I doubt anything I say will get through to you.)

Also, the lack of enthousiasm to join the war is duly noted. But of course it's no problem if the Ukrainians keep fighting and having their sons sent back to them in bits and pieces. Somehow I predict you would be a lot less eager to prolong this war if you had to make similar sacrifices.

Somehow I predict you would be a lot less eager to prolong this war if you had to make similar sacrifices. — Tzeentch

The armchair calls the sofa comfy.

Somehow I predict you would be a lot less eager to prolong this war if you had to make similar sacrifices. — Tzeentch

Where's your proof? :rofl: You know that's not even an argument don't you. But you repeat it as if it is a strong point. Even if you were right and I am a hypocrite, that does exactly nothing to show that I am wrong. It's a feeble ad hominem for which you have no evidence whatsoever, and just shows how weak your case is.

I don't want to prolong the war for a single minute you idiot. But allowing Putin to dictate terms for a ceasefire would guarantee that the war will be resumed at his convenience. and the evidence for this is that it already happened like this; he took Crimea, restocked, and attacked again. There is no peace available without security guarantees, or absolute defeat for one side or the other.

It's an effort to bring the kind of political polarization to Europe that is happening in the US.
— ssu

Yes. But it has been happening for years. A slow boil. Here, in the UK, we have Nigel Farage and the party he founded or purchased - 'Reform UK'. Leading to Brexit. It is gaining in strength. Full of populist rhetoric, it appeals to the young and disillusioned. Alienation including misogyny and hate. But we need to look further into the inequalities - house prices, job security.

The issues of insecurity are driving some from democracy to the 'certainties' of strong-man dictatorship. Extreme parties are gathering force. Can we re-engage by tackling issues at the root?
For parties to listen to and tackle serious problems at the level of the citizen.
They all claim to be the voice of the people. What people? — Amity

Along similar lines, from Bernie Sanders:

I will be doing town meetings in Omaha, Nebraska, this Friday night and Iowa City, Iowa, on Saturday morning. Further, in the coming weeks and months, I and other progressives will be holding grassroots events from coast to coast.

Why, at this moment, are we doing town meetings around the country – especially in conservative areas? The answer is obvious.

Trumpism will not be defeated by politicians inside the DC beltway. It will only be defeated by millions of Americans, in every state in this country, coming together in a strong, grassroots movement which says no to oligarchy, no to authoritarianism, no to kleptocracy, no to massive cuts in programs that working people desperately need, no to huge tax breaks for the richest people in our country. And that’s what these events are about.
[...]

While Trump now “floods the zone” and occupies most of the political oxygen, it is imperative that we never lose sight of the progressive vision – a nation and world based on human cooperation and compassion, not greed and a “survival of the fittest” mentality. What we are fighting for is not “utopian”, or unachievable. Much of it already exists in other countries, and poll after poll shows that it is exactly what the American people want.

In the richest country in the history of the world we must establish that:

Healthcare is a human right and must be available to all regardless of income.

Every worker in America is entitled to earn a decent income. We must raise the minimum wage to a living wage and make it easier for workers to join unions.

We must have the best public educational system in the world, from childcare to vocational training, to graduate school – available to all.

We must address the housing crisis and build the millions of units of low-income and affordable housing that we desperately need.

We must create millions of good paying jobs as we lead the world in combating the existential threat of climate change.

We must abolish all forms of bigotry.

Not only must we continue to fight for a nation based on the principles of economic, social, racial and environmental justice, we must also lead the effort against Trump‘s reactionary legislative agenda.

In the coming weeks the Republicans in Congress will be bringing forward a major piece of legislation, a “reconciliation” bill, that encapsulates the value system of greed and their obedience to oligarchy. It is the economic essence of Trumpism.

At a time of unprecedented income and wealth inequality, this legislation will provide trillions of dollars in tax breaks to the richest people in our country. It will make the rich even richer. At a time when the working class of this country is struggling to put food on the table and pay for housing, this legislation will make savage cuts to Medicaid, housing, nutrition, education and other basic needs. It will make the poor even poorer.

We cannot allow this to happen. This legislation is enormously unpopular. It is exactly what the American people do not want. It must not be passed by Congress.

It must be defeated and we can defeat it.

This is a perilous moment in American history. Let us go forward together.
— The Guardian - Bernie Sanders

Where are all the voices of the opposition? Does America not have other strong Democrat leaders? Do they only come out at Election time? I'm sure that there those who are fighting for human rights but they need to be more obvious and in our faces to counteract the ugliness and false information of the criminal and his team. They are all over the joint with their loud, brash, aggressive actions and lying words. Words that stick in people's minds, even when/if they are shown to be false.

Find the right words and spell it out so that people can't say they didn't know.

The armchair calls the sofa comfy. — Paine

I'm not the one suggesting we stop the peace talks because 'Putin is like Hitler, and peace is appeasement'.


Pointing out your hypocrisy isn't an ad hominem. It shows how shallow your position, and that of others, actually is.

You're whinging about Trump cutting a deal, not realizing that a peace agreement would spare the lives of thousands - a sacrifice you yourself are apparently not prepared to make.

This kind of thing has been happening throughout all the other threads related to Trump and Ukraine.
I think it best not to encourage this troll.

So you're against peace. — Tzeentch

Thus you have been harping.
Death is peaceful.

What do you suggest? Letting the Ukrainians fight and die until they are defeated totally? Starting World War 3? I presume you are volunteering to be the first to enter the trenches? — Tzeentch

Are you sure those are the only options? Where is your proof?

.

You all haven't got a leg to stand on.

Maybe you should all band together and try to produce something resembling an argument. :rofl:

Peace at the price of sacrificing a Ukraine. Sure: he won't miss Ukrainian independence. Then Poland? Sure, why not? Romania? Slovakia? Who needs them anyway? Hungary might be spared, so long as its government capitulates absolutely, rather than just the present lip-service. By then, Putin may be dead, but who knows what the next emperor has his eye on?

Maybe you should all band together and try to produce something resembling an argument — Tzeentch

Fair enough. All of these conditions concerning the conflict have been discussed in the 17,500 comments resting comfortably in the Ukraine Thread. The only difference now is that Tzeentch has a champion in the field.