1) We are also a country with a high number of low-skilled workers. Who would manufacture those microchips? — javi2541997

Rural people in Asia weren't born knowing how to manufacture microchips. A lot of the labor on the factory floor isn't immensely complicated. Very high-tech machines do a lot of the work. Spain could buy he high tech machines from the Netherlands, just up the coast a ways, who have a lock on the premier fabrication technology (so I have read).

I really am glad you are familiar with labor songs such as this and that you posted it. But Panopticon's recording sucks! What screwy method was used in the recording studio?

I first heard this song on a Folkways record in 1972.

Here's a performance by the song's author -- Sarah Ogan Gunning. Her voice is not pretty, but it's authentic. Harlan County, Kentucky was where a lot of underground mining was done -- very hard on the workers. Now coal is mostly extracted in open pits -- easier on the workers, far worse for the land (unless the mining companies restore the land -- which tends to reduce their profit margins).



Come all you coal miners wherever you may be
And listen to a story that I'll relate to thee
My name is nothing extra, but the truth to you I'll tell
I am a coal miner's wife, I'm sure l wish you well.
l was born in old Kentucky, in a coal camp born and bred,
I know all about the pinto beans, bulldog gravy and cornbread,
And I know how the coal miners work and slave in the coal mines every day
For a dollar in the company store, for that is all they pay.
Coal mining is the most dangerous work in our land today
With plenty of dirty. slaving work, and very little pay.
Coal miner, won't you wake up, and open your eyes and see
What the dirty capitalist system is doing to you and me.
They take your very life blood, they take our children's lives
They take fathers away from children, and husbands away from wives.
Oh miner, won't you organize wherever you may be
And make this a land of freedom for workers like you and me.
Dear miner, they will slave you 'til you can't work no more
And what'll you get for your living but a dollar in a company store
A tumbled-down shack to live in, snow and rain pours in the top.
You have to pay the company rent, your dying never stops.
I am a coal miner's wife, I'm sure l wish you well.
Let's sink this capitalist system in the darkest pits of hell.

Read 'em and weep.

Though, if you think about it, @BC, Home Free are just a "boy band" at the end of the day.

Here's what a real, civically and socially responsible adult actually listens to:

IN order not to totally derail Javi's castigation of Spain's decrepit economy, here's a lefty American folk song which is applicable to agriculture in Spain (where the rain may or may not stay mainly on the plain resulting in greater or smaller yields):

Boyband or the Highwaymen (country super group), I liked listening to them both.

And until philosophy can settle any debate, in any capacity, there's just poetry. Until then, people like you and me will have eternal treasures of Music and Literature, that will never be stolen, because their Truth shines, such as the following example: — Arcane Sandwich

The reason why "Gallo Rojo, Gallo Negro" (Red Rooster, Black Rooster) is such a heart-wrenching song to listen to is because it directly relates the topic of the "Being of Spain" with the Spanish Civil War, in such a way that the conflict itself becomes meaningless from a semantic point of view, and only senseless violence remains. Because it's a song about "Las Dos Españas" (The Two Spains). What do I mean by that? The following.

The Red Rooster is the Socialist, or Communist, or Left Winger more generally. The Black Rooster is the Fascist, the Nationalist, the Right Winger. But as the two Roosters fight each other, they realize that they're both birds of the same species. So, do they lay down their arms, and hug each other in peace and fraternal love?

Of course not. You see, the Black Rooster was actually a Royalist, he wasn't interested in defending fascists or nationalists, he simply wanted what was best for the Spanish Crown. In that sense, the Red rooster isn't the communist, he's the Republican, so the "Left vs Right" fight sort of "degenerates" into the previous conflict, Royalism vs Republicanism (if you can't possibly comprehend how a republican can be a left-winger, just think of the Irish Republican Army).

Ah, but it was all just smoke and mirrors, because while these two roosters were fighting to the death, it just so happened that we had it all wrong: the Black Rooster was actually an anarchist, a freethinker, a libertarian, someone who just wanted to be left alone, a follower of Bakunin, you could say. And the Red Rooster was actually an oppressive, Marxist defender of the state and all of its bureaucracy, a Stalinist, no better than Hitler.

Oh, but the Red Rooster wasn't actually any Marxist, he was a Trotskyst, so he was against bureaucracy, what senseless things the Red Rooster says.

At the end of the day, the Red Rooster was just a proletarian. Whatever sins he may have committed, the fact of the matter is that he was poor. But the Black Rooster was a lumpen-proletariat, so he was even poorer, which is why he's fighting the Red Rooster in the first place, there's not enough food to go around, and, being an individualist instead of a collectivist, the Black Rooster just wants to survive.

But, as the last part of the lyrics say:

"I warn you, Black rooster,
A red Rooster doesn't surrender
Until he's dead."

The moral of the story here is that in the end, the ideas themselves didn't matter. They were simply two people that were forced to kill each other for no reason. This very fact is what constitutes the fratricidal character of the Being of Spain. The Spanish essence (Hispanidad) is defined in part by this fratricidal confrontation. It's not exactly what Plato or Aristotle would have called an "essence":

The being of Spain or the problem of Spain is the name that usually designates​ an intellectual debate about Spanish national identity that arises with regenerationism at the end of the 19th century, and coinciding with the appearance of peripheral nationalisms. It converges with the topic of the two Spains, a very descriptive image of the violent division and fratricidal confrontation as a characteristic of the contemporary history of Spain. — Wikipedia (translated with Google Translate)

EDIT:

In that sense, the conflict or problem hasn't ended, even today. It doesn't matter that Franco died 50 years ago. Franco doesn't even matter to begin with because this fratricidal confrontation is part of the Spanish essence (Hispanidad). Here's a song about this very problem, but from a punk rock point of view:

Spain could buy he high tech machines from the Netherlands, just up the coast a ways, who have a lock on the premier fabrication technology (so I have read). — BC

Do you know what the main product we buy from our Dutch friends is? -- tractors. They are all over the rural areas, and each farmer has at least two.

Yet that's another good example of how we are dependent upon other countries' machines...

It's just damn hard to compete with cheap labor of the sort that Asia has in abundance. (Not that your average Asian likes being cheap labor on behalf of Foxconn, Apple, et al.). — BC

That was not only a big failure of Spain but the European Union altogether. Our politicians decided back in the 1990s and early 2000s that it was better to manufacture everything in random Chinese villages, with zero labour rights. Important Spanish companies like INDITEX (Zara) have their manufacturers there and in Bangladesh. This caused a heated debate in Congress like two years ago, blaming Amancio Ortega for being a modern slaver. As you say, it is barely possible to compete with those prices and wages, and most companies would prefer to go there. They only care about benefits, not investment. The worst thing is that the average income in Spain is around €1,130, and I consider it low... So, we are a cheap labour land but in a European context.

Our politicians decided back in the 1990s and early 2000s that it was better to manufacture everything in random Chinese villages, with zero labour rights. — javi2541997

Not just in Spain -- the same damned neoliberal policy was pursued in the US, beginning with New England manufacturing moving to cheaper southern states, and then to the Caribbean and Mexico, and finally Asia. Quite a few European countries off-shored manufacturing. It's been a long time since England made its own shirts.

INDITEX (Zara) have their manufacturers there — javi2541997

Luxury Italian goods are often made in China. Still luxury, but Italian and European workers are dealt out of the game. It's a rare shoe that's made in the US. New Balance is one company where SOME of their shoes are made in the US; Allen Edmonds makes quality shoes in Port Washington, Wisconsin -- I have bought their shoes; they last a long time.



ONE of the reasons Henry Ford paid his workers $5 an hour (back in 1914--doubling their wages) was so that they could afford to buy Ford's cars. Plus, they would be more loyal; work harder, etc. There are a lot of workers who can not afford to buy the goods and services they produce.

And now a ski lift has collapsed in Northern Spain. Hey, wait: Don't blame Spain. It might very well be the fault of the French or the Germans.

moving to cheaper southern states, and then to the Caribbean and Mexico, and finally Asia. — BC

Oddly, those are the countries where child labour is a reality, and they were condemned multiple times by useless organisations (UN) for not respecting children's rights, such as education. We had the same issue in both Europe and the USA back in the 19th century. A lot of people (infants included) had to die to change the circumstances for the better. We consider that a developed nation has their children learning in schools and playing freely with friends, not allocated in a steel factory manufacturing screws. Yet this is how the hypocrisy of our politicians pops up again. We don't want a child from Madrid or Minneapolis to work in factories, but we go to nations where they don't care about crossing those lines: Mexico, India, Bangladesh, Vietnam, and (sadly) a large etc.

There are a lot of workers who can not afford to buy the goods and services they produce. — BC

Yeah. I would not say "the land for the one who works on it" because I know everything is more complex than just that. But it is a problem how a large number of workers don't earn enough to purchase not only the goods and services they produce but others. I mean, there are works that, even with an income they are still considered poor.

And now a ski lift has collapsed in Northern Spain. Hey, wait: Don't blame Spain. It might very well be the fault of the French or the Germans. — BC

:rofl:

And now a ski lift has collapsed in Northern Spain. Hey, wait: Don't blame Spain. It might very well be the fault of the French or the Germans. — BC

I don't know. What I know is what you're probably getting at there, if I were to read between the lines. But no, the Spanish essence (Hispanidad) is an extremely dark, depressing subject matter to think about. Because, at the end of the day, after hours and hours of mutual accusations and rebuttals from the Spanish Left Winger -versus- the Spanish Right Winger, both of them arrive at the same exact conclusion, which they say to each other:

¿Que os pasa, anti-Español hijo de puta?

And once that's said, the dialogue is over, and the actual physical fight starts. If no one steps in to stop it, it will end in death. That might seem senseless to your mind. Well, you wouldn't be wrong. It is indeed senseless. It's just senseless violence.

But that's what "being Spanish" is all about. The Spanish Essence Day (Día de la Hispanidad) is national holiday in many South American countries, including Argentina. It's also a national holiday in Mexico, and in some countries from Central America as well.

It's just pure fratricide at the end of the day, at the level of identity politics, if that makes any sense. There's no other way to describe it.

¿Que os pasa, anti-Español hijo de puta? — Arcane Sandwich

Now imagine a Castilian saying this to a Catalan. Imagine a Catalan saying this to a Basque. Imagine a Basque saying this to an Andalucian. Imagine an Andalucian saying this to an Aragonese. Repeat until more than half of the population dies. If half of the population hasn't died by now, keep repeating it until it happens.

¿Que os pasa, anti-Español hijo de puta? — Arcane Sandwich

And now imagine that a white Mexican says this to a mestizo Mexican during Spanishness Day (Día de la Hispanidad). Do you see how grim this whole thing is? It's brutal.

¿Que os pasa, anti-Español hijo de puta? — Arcane Sandwich

Finally, imagine a "white" Castilian (as in, someone with beige skin, black hair, and black eyes) say this to a "white" Andalucian (as in, someone with beige skin, black hair, black eyes). What do you think is gonna happen? They'll try to kill each other, it is what it is. Visigoths vs Moors, that's what this particular instance of the conflict boils down to. Unless, of course, you wanna make it about Christianity vs Islam, or Europe vs Africa. Or, "Westerner" vs "Easterner". It just makes no sense if it can be all of that at the same time. Hence, the technical term here is fratricide. There's just no other way (to my mind) to describe it.

EDIT: And, obviously, the conflict doesn't end there, either. Imagine a Spaniard (like Javi, for example) saying this:

¿Que os pasa, anti-Español hijo de puta? — Arcane Sandwich

to an Argentine like me. It's like, we're going to try to kill each other. Good thing that we're on an Internet Forum, because if Javi or another Spaniard says that to me in the same physical room, then, it's like, you're not leaving this room alive, mate. Nah just kidding, I would never kill Javi (unless there are circumstances in which I find it Ethical to do so). Otherwise, if he says that to me, I'll just say the same thing back, only with a slight Rioplatense variation:

"¿Qué os pasa, Peninsular hijo de puta?"

And that sort of mentality is what the Spanish-born Patriots had when they fought the Argentine War of Independence against the Spanish Empire. You see, it's an endless conflict, and it's idiotic, it doesn't make sense. So, at the end of the day, instead of saying an insult like that, I would say to someone like Javi: Here's a song that I like that talks about that, and I like the song, because I would rather listen to a song with you, than try to kill you, if I have the choice.

Con adorno del buen escolazo
En tus manos

dejo Flor de Espadas

Para que tengas

Sepa el boncha que la va de liso:
Yo soy dueño de la mano brava

Dioses del abismo
Guardarán mi marca

Para sí
O para aquel
Como vos
Y como nosotros tres

Que viajando
En el sonido

Lo soñamos ayer
Y lo cumplimos hoy

Con adorno de buen escolazo
En tus manos dejo flor de espadas

Dioses del abismo
Guardarán mi marca

Para sí
O para aquel
Como vos

Y como nosotros tres

Que viajando
En el sonido

Lo soñamos ayer
Y lo cumplimos hoy — Almafuerte

That was not only a big failure of Spain but the European Union altogether. Our politicians decided back in the 1990s and early 2000s that it was better to manufacture everything in random Chinese villages, with zero labour rights. — javi2541997

Yes, this neoliberal approach was as common In Australia as it was in Spain. We used to make clothing, tools, cars, whitegoods, toys, furniture. All now imported from various Asian countries where labour is cheap and easily subdued.

After reading your posts, I can't come to the conclusion about what is more senseless to you: either being Spanish or hispanidad, which are different things. If your point is that our civil war and our continuous confrontation are senseless, then I agree. But I don't know to what extent it is related to the decolonising of South America. I think the senseless hysteria came afterwards.

On the other hand, you would be surprised seeing that we have a low self-esteem. So, I hardly believe that some would confront you for being anti-español. I think that rhetoric only applies among Spaniards. We will not burn everything down for the sake of our country.

I hardly believe that some would confront you for being anti-español. — javi2541997

It doesn't start like that, but that's how it ends. It starts as a general "Left vs Right" thing, then the conversation progressively degenerates until someone dares to accuse the other of being anti-Spanish, and at that point it just turns into a fist fight, unless someone steps in and stops the discussion before it ends in a fight.

EDIT: Even if another Argentine tells me something like "¿Qué te pasa, anti-español pelotudo?", we're no longer talking about politics, like, you're telling me that you're willing to physically fight me, just to impose your mistaken beliefs on me. And I'm not gonna have that. I'm not going to ignore what you just said in that situation, and I'm not going to de-escalate the situation either. We're far past that point if you, as an Argentine, say that to me in person, to my face. Like, if you say it on the Internet, on a Web Forum for example, I don't care.

As Kant said, "Nothing straight was ever built with the crooked timber of mankind."

Yeah, but Kant wasn't a poet. He doesn't speak to me. He doesn't stir my irrational emotions like a populist politician does. Kant is like an Alien in that sense. There's no poetry to his words, it's just literal prose. And I'm a literalist myself, but Kantian prose is just Legalese. I prefer Ontologese myself as far as made-up languages go.

Kant would have been really good at Esperanto, for example. I'm sure that he would have been passionate about it (to the extent that an Alien like Kant can be passionate about anything).

Politics is a game of passions, friend. It's not a game of thrones, nor is it a game of money. There's no strategy to it, and there are no tactics to it. It's not warfare, unless you militarize it.

We always compare ourselves to North European nations and wonder why we are not like you. But this is a utopia. It is impossible because our idiosyncrasies are different. — javi2541997

Spain is its own country with historical ebbs and flows. It has wonderful traditions, style and climate. Year around sun and broad stretches of flatland must be good for solar power... I am no economist, but tides will turn.

Anyway, I will always be fond of Spain, the Spanish language, its way of life. Just enjoy and do not fret much about something rather artificial as a 'country'.

Kant would have been really good at Esperanto — Arcane Sandwich

Does Esperanto have categorically imperative verbs?

Does Esperanto have categorically imperative verbs? — BC

I've no idea, I don't speak it myself. I understand the concept, but I never cared to learn it. It was really fashionable in the Vienna Circle, among the Logical Positivists. Carnap was passionate about it, he said that he was deeply moved when he heard a work of art in that language (I can't remember if it was a poem, or a theatrical piece, or what).