• ToothyMaw
    1.4k
    This OP is written from the point of view of a citizen of the US and is directed at those who are, or claim to be, interested in alleviating the "clash of values" between Western secularism and the more radical strains of Islam and reducing the concomitant threat posed by jihadism.

    I will start off by acknowledging that people are right when they say that western values (secularism, belief in equality of the sexes, etc.) are inherently at odds with fundamentalist Islamic values that often give rise to jihadism. This is self-evident. It is also true that many jihadists are not solely motivated by, or perhaps even mostly motivated by, terrestrial concerns. And they do indeed often tell us that this is the case while committing acts of terror. As far as I can tell, there are a number of ways of resolving this conflict, or at least the threat of jihadism, of varying degrees of plausibility that might be compatible with those truths. I will now present a few (although this is far from being an exhaustive list):

    1) We could (presumably in an ethical way) kill or imprison enough jihadists and people that might become jihadists such that the problem would go away

    2) We could push for a reformation of Islam so that less people become radicalized

    3) We could wage an illegal drone war, organize coups against governments that oppose western hegemony, and invade and destabilize entire regions for reasons that most likely have little to do with eliminating terrorist threats while currently supporting a government perpetrating a genocide.

    1) is of course ridiculous and intuitively unethical, and if one actually thinks that we could feasibly kill or imprison enough jihadists, or people that might become jihadists, to eliminate the threat radical Islam poses, they are wrong - barring committing incredible crimes against humanity. 2) seems to be the best way forward out of these three options, although it would undoubtedly take time and effort. And it does not preclude killing or imprisoning jihadists when necessary. 3) consists of following through on the prevailing middle east policy and hoping that in the process of blowing up anyone or anything that gets in the way (in Chomsky's words), the religious views of Muslims somehow change in a positive way in spite of that violence.

    Anyone who takes the threat of terrorism seriously should balk at 3).

    I expect that someone might say, or hold in their mind, that 3) (or whatever interpretation of the facts around US foreign policy that exists in one's head) is compatible with 2). I would say that the two probably don’t entail a logical contradiction, but so long as we assassinate entire families in the hopes of getting at targets that are suspected of maybe being a threat to something all the way across the world, or support Israel’s genocide, as a much more egregious example, we are stepping on the toes of any would-be reformers, as those kinds of things (unjustifiable crimes) are precisely that which might be used as fodder for the argument that a radical interpretation of scripture mixed with strong anti-west sentiment is correct.

    I admit that the way forward is far more complicated than just committing to supporting reformers of Islam; for instance, I think that we have clearly been right to support certain scrappy, ideologically desirable groups, such as the secular, left-wing Kurdish militias that were instrumental in fighting IS, so they could effectively fight IS. But the main point here is that our current foreign policy makes little sense if we are committed to reducing jihadism and terrorism or alleviating the friction created by the clash of values.

    All of that said, to frame the issue the way I have is itself indicative of a problem. Jihadism, at least in so far as terrorism is concerned, should be on the backburner compared to issues of the environment, potential nuclear destruction, the genocide in Gaza, Trump's incoming presidency, etc. But for some reason people allow themselves to be terrorized and absorbed by the mere thought of an attack every time one comes around. That is the intended effect. Don't let it do that to you.
  • Arcane Sandwich
    2.2k
    Here's my argument, it's a humble modus ponens:

    1) If jihadism is incompatible with secularism, then the concept of religious tolerance does not apply to jihadism.
    2) Jihadism is incompatible with secularism.
    3) So, the concept of religious tolerance does not apply to jihadism.
  • ToothyMaw
    1.4k
    Here's my argument, it's a humble modus ponens:

    1) If jihadism is incompatible with secularism, then the concept of religious tolerance does not apply to jihadism.
    2) Jihadism is incompatible with secularism.
    3) So, the concept of religious tolerance does not apply to jihadism.
    Arcane Sandwich

    Sounds about right. But I don't think many people actually think we should tolerate jihadism. People might, however, think we ought to tolerate the kind of fundamentalism that might give rise to jihadism. Maybe we could modify your argument in some way to account for that:

    1) certain radical interpretations of scripture directly give rise to jihadism.
    2) If certain radical interpretations of scripture that give rise to jihadism are incompatible with secularism, then the concept of religious tolerance does not apply to those radical interpretations of scripture.
    3) if jihadism is incompatible with secularism, then the concept of religious tolerance does not apply to jihadism.
    4) Jihadism is incompatible with secularism.
    5) Therefore, because of (1), those radical interpretations of scripture that directly give rise to jihadism are incompatible with secularism.
    6) Therefore, religious tolerance does not apply to jihadism or those radical interpretations of scripture that give rise to jihadism.
  • Arcane Sandwich
    2.2k
    Let's see if we can simply the argument, @ToothyMaw. (BTW, you repeated the number "2)" in your argument, take a look at it).

    I would say:

    1) If certain radical interpretations of scripture that give rise to jihadism are incompatible with secularism, then the concept of religious tolerance does not apply to those radical interpretations of scripture nor to jihadism.
    2) Certain radical interpretations of scripture that give rise to jihadism are incompatible with secularism.
    3) So, the concept of religious tolerance does not apply to those radical interpretations of scripture nor to jihadism.
  • ToothyMaw
    1.4k
    1) If certain radical interpretations of scripture that give rise to jihadism are incompatible with secularism, then the concept of religious tolerance does not apply to those radical interpretations of scripture nor to jihadism.
    2) Certain radical interpretations of scripture that give rise to jihadism are incompatible with secularism.
    3) So, the concept of religious tolerance does not apply to those radical interpretations of scripture nor to jihadism.
    Arcane Sandwich

    Looks good. Thanks for simplifying it; I should have done that myself and saved you the work.
  • Arcane Sandwich
    2.2k
    It could probably be simplified even further. Right now it has the following structure:

    1) p → (¬q ∧ ¬r)
    2) p
    3) ¬q ∧ ¬r

    It might be possible to simplify this even further, so that you arrive at a basic modus ponens or a basic modus tollens.
  • ToothyMaw
    1.4k


    Yes, I see. I'll try to make it simpler. How do you get the logic symbols in your posts?
  • Arcane Sandwich
    2.2k
    How do you get the logic symbols in your posts?ToothyMaw

    I use the Tree Proof Generator and I just copy-paste the symbols from there.
  • Arcane Sandwich
    2.2k
    It's a great way to learn symbolic logic in a practical way, just fool around with it for a few hours, try different formulas, try to make different arguments. Make them as complicated as your want, to your heart's content, then try to make them as simple as possible, etc. You'll learn symbolic logic this way in far less time than reading books on symbolic logic (though you should do that as well, just to understand what's going on from a purely conceptual POV)
  • Arcane Sandwich
    2.2k
    And a good way to improve your argumentative skills (i.e., identifying false premises, seeing what strategic options and tactical options you have for denying them, etc.) is to take a look at the arguments in the entry on Ordinary Objects over at the SEP. See how the author (Korman) presents each argument against ordinary objects, and how he discusses the options for rejecting each premise. Try to determine which of the available options, in each case, seems the correct one. If there is no listed option, try to imagine one yourself, etc.
  • ToothyMaw
    1.4k


    Thanks, sandwich. I'll use those resources for sure.
  • ToothyMaw
    1.4k


    I present the modus tollens version:

    1) If religious tolerance applies to jihadism and those radical interpretations of scripture that give rise to jihadism, then they must be compatible with secularism.
    2) Jihadism and those radical interpretations of scriptures that give rise to jihadism are not compatible with secularism.
    3) Therefore, religious tolerance does not apply to jihadism or those radical interpretations of scripture that give rise to jihadism.

    edit: it isn't quite modus tollens is it
  • Arcane Sandwich
    2.2k
    It's definitely easier to understand now, as far as the content goes. And as far as the structure goes, it's a lot more "elegant" (but that doesn't mean anything except to logic nerds like us). Right now the structure that it has is the following one:

    1) (p ∧ q) → (r ∧ s)
    2) ¬(r ∧ s)
    3) ¬p ∧ ¬q

    You can leave the argument there if you want. In theory, it can be simplified even further. I would try to arrive at the most basic modus tollens, like so:

    1) a → b
    2) ¬b
    3) ¬a

    That would be the ideal structure for a modus tollens, because it's the most basic one. Of course, sometimes that's not possible, due to the content of the argument. Sometimes, the content of an argument imposes restrictions on how much the argument in question can be simplified. Sometimes there's a point in which you can't simplify it any further from the point of view of the content, even though you could simplify it further from the point of view of the purely formal structure.
  • ToothyMaw
    1.4k


    I've got it.

    1) If jihadism and the radical interpretations of scripture that give rise to jihadism are to be tolerated, they must be compatible with secularism.

    2) Jihadism and those radical interpretations of scripture that lead to jihadism are not compatible with secularism.

    3) Therefore, jihadism and the radical interpretations of scripture that give rise to jihadism should not be tolerated.
  • Arcane Sandwich
    2.2k
    At this point in the construction of the argument I would ask, from a purely technical POV, if there is any need to separate jihadism from the radical interpretations of scripture that make it possible. Can jihadism exist without those radical interpretations? Doesn't seem like it, since we're saying that they make it possible to begin with. Otherwise, we would be saying that jihadism can exist by itself, without anything to make it possible to being with. Or, perhaps jihadism can exist because what makes it possible to begin with is something else, not necessarily some radical interpretations of scripture. It's complicated.

    Let's suppose, if only for the sake of argument, that jihadism can only exist if at least one of its causes is a radical interpretation of scripture. In that case, since the latter is a necessary component of the former, the root of the problem here is that radical interpretation itself, not jihadism, because jihadism is simply the effect. The cause of that effect is the radical interpretation of scripture.

    And if that is the case, then if we block those radical interpretations of scripture, we will have blocked the existence of jihadism itself. So it seems like the wisest course of action is to simply declare that those radical interpretations of jihadism are incompatible with secularism (this can be supported independently by secondary arguments, but right now we'll just take it as a premise). This being the case, an even simpler modus tollens could be the following one:

    1) If the radical interpretations of scripture that give rise to jihadism can be religiously tolerated in a secular society, then jihadism is compatible with secularism.
    2) Jihadism is not compatible with secularism.
    3) So, the radical interpretations of scripture that give rise to jihadism cannot be religiously tolerated in a secular society.

    (edited for clarity)
  • Arcane Sandwich
    2.2k
    1) If the radical interpretations of scripture that give rise to jihadism can be religiously tolerated in a secular society, then jihadism is compatible with secularism.
    2) Jihadism is not compatible with secularism.
    3) So, the radical interpretations of scripture that give rise to jihadism cannot be religiously tolerated in a secular society.
    Arcane Sandwich

    And this last argument that I just said, @ToothyMaw, can be simplified even further. How? Well, like I did in my first comment:

    1) If jihadism is incompatible with secularism, then the concept of religious tolerance does not apply to jihadism.
    2) Jihadism is incompatible with secularism.
    3) So, the concept of religious tolerance does not apply to jihadism
    Arcane Sandwich

    That was my point all along.
  • ToothyMaw
    1.4k


    I think I get it, yes. If we suppose that radical interpretations of scripture are a necessary component of jihadism, we get your argument:

    1) If the radical interpretations that give rise to jihadism can be religiously tolerated in a secular society, then jihadism is compatible with secularism.
    2) Jihadism is not compatible with secularism.
    3) So, the radical interpretations that give rise to jihadism cannot be religiously tolerated in a secular society.
    Arcane Sandwich

    And we can simplify it to get an argument like the one you made in the first place. We get a modus ponens like:

    1) If those radical interpretations of scripture that give rise to jihadism are incompatible with secularism, then the concept of religious tolerance does not apply to those radical interpretations of scripture.
    2) Those radical interpretations of scripture that give rise to jihadism are not compatible with secularism.
    3) So, the concept of religious tolerance does not apply to those radical interpretations of scripture that give rise to jihadism.

    Or am I making a mistake somewhere?
  • Arcane Sandwich
    2.2k
    Or am I making a mistake somewhere?ToothyMaw

    Nope, not as far as I can see, at least. Now we need to bring the concept of "elegance" into the argument, just to tidy up the expressions a bit. For example, instead of "those", I would say "the". This has no bearing on the validity of the argument, nor does it have any bearing on the truth of the premises. It's just an aesthetic thing so that people have an easier time reading it. So, I would echo your last argument, with a few stylistic modifications, like so:

    1) If the radical interpretations of scripture that give rise to jihadism are incompatible with secularism, then the concept of religious tolerance does not apply to the radical interpretations of scripture.
    2) The radical interpretations of scripture that give rise to jihadism are not compatible with secularism.
    3) So, the concept of religious tolerance does not apply to the radical interpretations of scripture that give rise to jihadism.
  • ToothyMaw
    1.4k


    Duly noted. Thanks, sandwich.
  • Arcane Sandwich
    2.2k
    No prob :up: There's probably more that can be done to improve the aesthetics of the argument, but that's just a stylistic thing that allows people to see your point more clearly. It has no bearing on the validity of the argument or the truth of the premises.
  • T Clark
    14.3k
    This is a wonderful OP. It rivals my favorite recent "In Support of Western Supremacy, Nationalism, and Imperialism" for naive, knuckleheaded hubris. If we, the US that is, wants to deal with jihadism, here are the simple steps:

    • Stop supporting Israel
    • Get US military out of the Middle East
    • Stop supporting repressive Islamic regimes
    • Mind our own business
    • Stop supporting Israel
  • Arcane Sandwich
    2.2k
    Stop supporting Israel
    Get US military out of the Middle East
    Stop supporting repressive Islamic regimes
    Mind our own business
    Stop supporting Israel
    T Clark

    From a purely technical standpoint, I don't think that repeating a point (i.e., "stop supporting Israel") makes it more persuasive. Like, it just doesn't.
  • BitconnectCarlos
    2.4k


    I.e. put our fingers in our ears, bury our head in the sand and the problem should go away... right? Right?



    Instead of looking to syllogism consider looking to history. 2000 years ago the Jews had an issue with religious extremism. The Romans stomped it out and the Jews were forced to re-examine their theology and frame it in a more moderate, sensible way. The Jews and Muslims think alike in many ways.
  • T Clark
    14.3k
    I.e. put our fingers in our ears, bury our head in the sand and the problem should go away... right? Right?BitconnectCarlos

    The problem may or may not go away, but it will stop being our problem.
  • Arcane Sandwich
    2.2k
    Instead of looking to syllogism consider looking to history.BitconnectCarlos

    Are they somehow mutually exclusive? Deductive reasoning and history, that is.
  • T Clark
    14.3k
    From a purely technical standpoint, I don't think that repeating a point (i.e., "stop supporting Israel") makes it more persuasive. Like, it just doesn't.Arcane Sandwich

    I wasn't trying to be persuasive. I was just stating the obvious with extra emphasis on what I consider most important.
  • Leontiskos
    3.8k
    1) If jihadism is incompatible with secularism, then the concept of religious tolerance does not apply to jihadism.
    2) Jihadism is incompatible with secularism.
    3) So, the concept of religious tolerance does not apply to jihadism.
    Arcane Sandwich

    Pardon, but I think this is a bit too easy. For example:

    4. Jihad is a religious tenet.
    5. Religious tolerance applies to religious tenets.
    6. Therefore, religious tolerance applies to Jihadism.

    The implicit premise of your arguments is <Secularism never transgresses religious tolerance>, and I take it that this is the erroneous premise. If someone does not tolerate a religion, then they lack religious tolerance. It doesn't matter if they are secular or non-secular. It doesn't make sense to say, "If I do not tolerate something, then that something is not a religion," or, "By definition I {or secularism} never transgress religious tolerance."

    If this is right, then the substantive question asks when religious tolerance should be abandoned.
  • ToothyMaw
    1.4k


    Stop supporting Israel
    Get US military out of the Middle East
    Stop supporting repressive Islamic regimes
    Mind our own business
    Stop supporting Israel
    T Clark

    For fuck's sake, T, did you even read the OP? I said that our current foreign policy makes no sense if we care about reducing jihadism. I agree with you that we should pull our military out of the middle east in an intelligent way and stop supporting Israel.

    edit: when I talk about supporting reformers, I don't mean with APC's and foot soldiers. Maybe I should have made that clearer?
  • T Clark
    14.3k
    For fuck's sake, T, did you even read the OP? I said that our current foreign policy makes no sense if we care about reducing jihadism. I agree with you that we should pull our military out of the middle east in an intelligent way and stop supporting Israel.ToothyMaw

    Yes, I did read the OP and just read it again. We created our problem with jihadism and we have it in our grasp to get rid of it. The OP is wrongheaded in suggesting there is some problem with Islam we need to address beyond the one we've brought on ourselves.
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