It made me wonder if things like mass, and position are not truly the fundamental building blocks of existence, but are only derived phenomena from something even more fundamental — Brendan Golledge

How would we even be able to know what state or lack of states quanta has apart from measurement?

Suppose spacetime is fundamentally entangled ... — 180 Proof

From what I gather it doesn't mean much for our day to day lives, but for quantum cryptography maybe.

So you are trying to find the right terms to interpret a mathematical model. Language games again. — substantivalism

Not language games, just that translating the math is hard because quantum physics isn't exactly intuitive.

These mental tools do not need a degree for someone to fully analyze it or get it on first viewing. — substantivalism

Yes they do, otherwise you end up with people like you talking about things they don't understand.

When a scientist has constructed explanations of phenomena they make use of something other than purely descriptive or mathematical terms. They use an assortment of analogies to other phenomenon — substantivalism

No they're not. We have data and then determine what that data means. If you put sodium in water and it explodes you can reason that sodium and water create that reaction.

Usually going along the same lines as saying 'let us treat light as if it were a wave', 'imagine that the electron is small ball and the nucleus is a dense collection', or 'pretend that atoms in lattices are balls connected by springs'. — substantivalism

Not language games and not what they do.

These are analogue modeling which is extremely prevalent and a fundamental fiction creating tool which physicists use all the time. — substantivalism

Not fiction.

I'd say that is all that the majority of what a scientific interpretation of a theory is composed of.

How else would you explain to someone what a mathematical model even means when there are no familiar, direct, and meaningful concepts? — substantivalism

Easily, we do it every day. Math is part of how we get the result but that's not all physics is. You're just making shit up that scientists don't do to try to justify that philosophy has some use when it's long been obsolete in navigating the world apart from ethics and morality.

The only thing I can think of is that maybe position and momentum aren't really the fundamental building blocks of existence, but maybe the wave function itself (which describes a probability distribution of position or momentum) is the true existence of the particle. — Brendan Golledge

They are and it's not.

Not language games, just that translating the math is hard because quantum physics isn't exactly intuitive. — Darkneos

Your acting as if there is some clear god given manner in which you translate the math into ordinary language. The fact that we do disagree on how to do so means that it isn't so much a revelation to a scientist as much as it is a long drawn out unending debate that has numerous subjective threads.

Such as appeals to: Empirical adequacy, simplicity, unificationism, counterfactual restriction of physical possibilities, conceptual pragmatic utility, etc. There are many other such subjective meta-criteria that scientists appeal to all the time especially when falsifiability fails to be able to yield any useful or clear answer.

No they're not. We have data and then determine what that data means. If you put sodium in water and it explodes you can reason that sodium and water create that reaction. — Darkneos

What you just stated is a description NOT an explanation nor is it how this would be explained regardless.

Where are the talk of atoms? Subatomic or atomic interactions? Fields of force? Quantum fields? Talk of little billiard balls or liquid wave functions?

I don't see those in the reaction as those are terms and stories meant to refer to something not in the description you just gave. They are meant to REFER to something UNSEEN and what is truly responsible for the reaction that took place. I was talking about EXPLANATIONS and not MERE DESCRIPTIONS.

Not language games and not what they do. — Darkneos

Then give me an example of how a scientist explains something using quantum mechanics that doesn't make use of math, descriptive language, or uses any form of metaphor/analogical speech. Go ahead, I'm waiting.

Not fiction. — Darkneos

Is the Rutherford model of an atom meant to be taken as how atoms actually are or merely a useful fiction?

Easily, we do it every day. Math is part of how we get the result but that's not all physics is. You're just making shit up that scientists don't do to try to justify that philosophy has some use when it's long been obsolete in navigating the world apart from ethics and morality. — Darkneos

Making it up!!

Read a scientific journal on the topic matter. . . a quick search got me this paper on hydrodynamic analogue modeling for gravitational modeling (https://arxiv.org/pdf/gr-qc/0511105). Clearly, a hydrodynamical analogy is much more amenable to investigate or wrap your head around than talking about the forest of pure math approaches to quantum gravity along with the unclear, vague, or esoteric language that accompanies it. This is a valid approach.

Here is an entire 452 page textbook collection of articles on analogue models just for understanding gravitational phenomenon or as it puts it 'analogue gravity phenomenology'. Which is a deeply rich text which can only speak for itself:

Reasoning by analogies is a natural inclination of the human brain that operates by associating new and unknown situations to a series of known and previously encountered situations. On the basis of these analogies, judgements and decisions are made: associations are the building blocks for predictive thought. It is therefore natural that analogue models are also a constant presence in the world of physics and an invaluable instrument in the progress of our knowledge of the world that surrounds us. It would be impossible to give a comprehensive list of these analogue models but a few recent and relevant examples are optical waveguide analogues of the relativistic Dirac equation (linking optics with quantum mechanics), photonic crystals (linking optical wave propagation in periodic lattices with electron propagation in metals) or, at a more profound level, the Anti-de Sitter/Conformal Field Theory correspondence (linking quantum systems in D dimensions to gravitational systems in D+1dimensions). The purpose of this book is to give a general overview and introduction to the world of analogue gravity: the simulation or recreation of certain phenomena that are usually attributed to the effects of gravity but that can be shown to naturally emerge in a variety of systems ranging from flowing liquids to nonlinear optics.

This isn't only limited to gravity as here is a huge plethora of quantum analogue models along with well needed discussions as to the place or importance of them. Happy reading!

Do you believe quantum particles can be in multiple statea at once, and why believe that?

Do you believe quantum particles can be in multiple statea at once, and why believe that? — Gregory

Well that’s what they are. It’s not a matter of belief. That’s is until they interact with anything, at which point they settle.

Read a scientific journal on the topic matter. . . a quick search got me this paper on hydrodynamic analogue modeling for gravitational modeling (https://arxiv.org/pdf/gr-qc/0511105). Clearly, a hydrodynamical analogy is much more amenable to investigate or wrap your head around than talking about the forest of pure math approaches to quantum gravity along with the unclear, vague, or esoteric language that accompanies it. This is a valid approach — substantivalism

I have read some but to use the word analogy means you don’t understand what is going on and what they’re doing.

You think the math is the pure data and it has to be translated to language and that’s just not what’s going on.

Again you keep trying to make philosophy valid where it isn’t. This is just noise.

This isn't only limited to gravity as here is a huge plethora of quantum analogue models along with well needed discussions as to the place or importance of them. Happy reading! — substantivalism

I know you didn’t really these, you literally quoted the first paragraph. Not only do you not understand what science is doing but you link evidence to the contrary, nice work.

Like I said, it’s noise. Maybe read what you link first before posting. Again, that’s not what’s happening in science.

Well that’s what they are. It’s not a matter of belief. That’s is until they interact with anything, at which point they settle. — Darkneos

There are several interpretations which disagree with this though, including Bohmian and Many Worlds.

Well that’s what they are. It’s not a matter of belief. That’s is until they interact with anything, at which point they settle — Darkneos

The whole "measurement problem" seems like a hoax. If it only settles when we look we have no idea what it would be (or is) if we didn't

Well that’s what they are. It’s not a matter of belief. That’s is until they interact with anything, at which point they settle. — Darkneos

According to what?

You have still left this a complete mystery as to how you interpret correctly mathematical models of any given phenomenon. I think the reason why you choose to remain silent on it and cite sources is because either you'd be shown as a dogmatist who can't think beyond his textbooks or your literally start talking about things that philosophers of science have discussed to death already. That or accidently have to bring in other such fields as linguistics and psychology into the fold because if philosophy is dead that doesn't actually mean all its problems go away as they find new homes in more palatably named alternative fields of study.

I have read some but to use the word analogy means you don’t understand what is going on and what they’re doing. — Darkneos

Explain to me why the word analogy doesn't fit? With a cited source?

You think the math is the pure data and it has to be translated to language and that’s just not what’s going on. — Darkneos

I've repeatedly made the distinction between the mathematical models one uses to quantify observations or make predictions which is CONSTRASTED with the actual observational statements made or observations performed.

There are theoretical and then there are generally therefore observational statements/terms. It's really simple. Read the above twice if you have to.

Again you keep trying to make philosophy valid where it isn’t. This is just noise. — Darkneos

. . . and your trying so hard to not have a discussion about things that confuse laymen all the time. I see tons of questions by such people all the time asking if the statements made by popular pop-cultural depictions of scientific facts or by actual scientists themselves are 'true' or 'mere language games/metaphor'.

I know you didn’t really these, you literally quoted the first paragraph. Not only do you not understand what science is doing but you link evidence to the contrary, nice work. — Darkneos

You stated that scientist did not do anything related to what I was talking about which implied they worked with nothing involving analogies or metaphors. I showed that this was wrong simply by the fact modern scientists construct and see worth in analogue modeling. It's a common ancient practice. It's literal basic modeling!

If you wanted a bit of a historical treatment and a deep dive into the prevalence of analogies in scientific work then I'd advocate grabbing yourself the book scientific models in philosophy of science by Bailer-Jones. Someone who has had an extensive interest in the philosophy of science but is also it seems has a masters in astrophysics. If you can't stand the more philosophical chapters at least read the sections showcasing paradigm examples from well known names such as Maxwell or Boltzmann. They both had brief but intriguing perspectives on the roles of modeling or analogy in the sciences.

I'd also recommend any historical treatment regarding physics concepts such as force, mass, space/time, simultaneity, or the interpretations of quantum mechanics (if you can find a cheap copy) by Max Jammer which are extensive historical treatments far beyond any text book presentation of the common physics notions you are now familiar with. (https://www.amazon.com/s?k=max+jammer&crid=2JUXI96VNZO85&sprefix=max+ja%2Caps%2C567&ref=nb_sb_noss_2)

The whole "measurement problem" seems like a hoax. If it only settles when we look we have no idea what it would be (or is) if we didn't — Gregory

Are you saying there is un-observational even in principle speculation to be had here? *gasp*